Magnus strength level

[Just123456]

Magnus can destroy a fleet in orbit. And in another book he stopped a ship a minimum of 11 kilometers long crashing. It might have been over 60 kilometers long. And Graham McNeill in an AMA said the Daemon who offered to destroy the Space Wolf fleet for Magnus would have been able to. The below quote is from Warzone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus.

 

So Magnus can easily move ships in orbit. More than that.

 

"High above the Fang, the masterfully built spacecraft of the Grey Knights Chapter remote-scryed the location of the Daemon Primarch, calibrated their weapons batteries, and fired. Searing ruby-red beams shot from the heavens, all four converging upon the same point as the gunners of the Grey Knights fleet brought their deadliest weapons to bear. By rights they should have reduced Magnus to a steaming crater. In truth, they did little more than drive him to his knees; a hemisphere of invisible force protected him from physical attack, no matter how powerful. The Daemon Primarch rose, laughing cruelly at the impotence of the Imperial order founded to slay his kind.

 

The rune-casting psykers of Logan’s Great Company, gathered under Njal Stormcaller, did not despair. They sent bolts of psychic lightning, ghostly tempests, and blizzards of razored ice-knives that flayed to the bone the Tzaangors cavorting around their master’s feet. Yet none of their runic witchery even touched the Crimson King. If anything, Magnus seemed larger and more powerful than before the first salvo had been fired. The Crimson King’s laughter grew louder. Though he now hovered, wings beating slowly, above the Wolf’s Gullet, his voice sounded as if he were mere inches from the ear of all who witnessed him. Those who looked upon him directly did so with needles of pain stabbing their minds, for he glowed almost too bright to bear.

 

With Njal leading their chants, the most powerful of Fenris’ Rune Priests joined their might once more. Slowly, the vast chasm of the Gullet closed upon Magnus, its rocky edges like the jagged teeth of the World Wolf itself. Lava geysered and boiled as the chasm bit with the force of grinding tectonic plates. For a moment, the Daemon Primarch disappeared from sight. At the last, Magnus threw out his arms and held the rocky jaws wide with only his vast telekinetic power, the jagged teeth of the cliffs snapping to tumble into the fires below.

 

Grand Master Valdar Aurikon stretched out his hands, psychic lightning leaping towards Magnus in a great crackling helix. Magnus caught the attack on his staff and hurled it back, the bolt transforming the Grey Knight into scattering nuggets of fool’s gold.

 

Another focussed lance strike shot down from the heavens. This one Magnus did not dissipate upon his protective dome of force, but instead caught with the curve of his blade before hurling it outwards into the rumbling line of battle tanks that was cresting the ridge. The redirected energies hit home with cataclysmic force, smashing the entire column of war engines to smoking ruin. Then Magnus reached upwards, the eye in his palm blinking once as it focussed on the spacecraft high above. Uttering a low chant, the Crimson King extended his telekinetic mastery until it soared into the stratosphere and beyond. Space Wolf, Dark Angel and Grey Knight alike stood aghast as the sky was lit with expanding coronas of fire. Those Space Marines who auto-viewed the blazing phenomena witnessed Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers crashing into one another as if flung by some godly hand, their reactors overloading a moment later to throw all of Asaheim into stark monochromatic light. "

Edited July 22, 2021 by Just123456

[Brother Tyler]

Why is this in the Liber forum and not in other forum such as the Thousand Sons or Age of Darkness? Since the lore refers to modern issues (the Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar and the presence of Grey Knights), the Thousand Sons forum is more appropriate.

 

Also, the topic title is vague. Something like "Magnus the Red's Psyker Potency" or similar would give prospective readers a better idea of the discussion's subject matter and scope.

 

The quoted material appears to come from some official source. Citing that (full title rather than just an acronym) would be helpful, especially in preventing anyone from jumping to the (mistaken) conclusion that this is fan-made lore.

[Just123456]

With what I saw it looked fine to put the thread here. Though I am not very familiar with bolterandchainsword. Can you move the thread to the right forum? And then eventually delete it.

 

The quote is from Warzone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Just123456

[Brother Tyler]

No worries about the placement. The Liber forums are for discussion and development of DIYs. This is a perfectly valid discussion, but is more appropriate in the Thousand Sons forum (to which it is being moved).

[Irate Khornate]

Does make me miss Magnus being the psychic armageddon he was in 7th, but I understand why they had to move away from that.

[Xenith]

I don't understand - are you asking a question, or just sharing background with the group? What discussion do you want to have about it?

[Just123456]

I don't understand - are you asking a question, or just sharing background with the group? What discussion do you want to have about it?

Sharing.

[Scammel]

I think it's worth not over-emphasising some of those feats. In Master of Prospero, he did indeed succeed in lifting a single ship into orbit - with the assistance of several Sons who were consumed in the process, and leaving Magnus himself incapacitated. Similarly, Magnus 'kills two Titans' in A Thousand Sons, but needs a breather and protection from Phosis T'Kar in-between. He's clearly capable of raw physical feats far beyond almost all of the other Primarchs (bar a couple of cheeky Titan-kills), but the friendly 'my dad could beat up your dad' rivalry that pervades the 30k fanbase sometimes results in Magnus becoming effortlessly invincible, which he isn't.

[Just123456]

I think it's worth not over-emphasising some of those feats. In Master of Prospero, he did indeed succeed in lifting a single ship into orbit - with the assistance of several Sons who were consumed in the process, and leaving Magnus himself incapacitated. Similarly, Magnus 'kills two Titans' in A Thousand Sons, but needs a breather and protection from Phosis T'Kar in-between. He's clearly capable of raw physical feats far beyond almost all of the other Primarchs (bar a couple of cheeky Titan-kills), but the friendly 'my dad could beat up your dad' rivalry that pervades the 30k fanbase sometimes results in Magnus becoming effortlessly invincible, which he isn't.

I was talking about that ship. It was a minimum of 11 kilometers long and might have been over 60 kilometers long. And it was built of material stronger and heavier than regular Imperial ships.

 

The problem with the Eldar Titans is that the planet he was on, Aghoru, was interfering with psychic strength. And in the same book he casually destroys a super Gargant. And that Gargant wrecked a second type Titan.

 

And Graham McNeill on Reddit said the Daemon where who offered to destroy the Space Wolf fleet for Magnus would have been able to destroy them.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Just123456

[Prot]

Sometimes those books that are published on the model side of things can be kind of 'out there' and the novels can do this too, but it's really hard with GW to pin a 'belief' on any one source. It's all over the place.

 

I remember that passage you bring up. I also remember ADB having Angron take a boot stomp into a planet, and another Primarch took a dual turbo laser battery to the chest... it's all relative. I think the idea is these stories are told from different prespectives.

 

If I recall, I remember feeling quite disappointed when a couple of Harlequins kind of beat up on Magnus on the moon and banished him back to the warp. (I just remember how lame that scene read out. I think it may have been in relation to Guilliman.)

 

I take all these mega powerful moments with a grain of salt. Perhaps there's an outside (unseen) force manipulating the situation as well. 

[Just123456]

Sometimes those books that are published on the model side of things can be kind of 'out there' and the novels can do this too, but it's really hard with GW to pin a 'belief' on any one source. It's all over the place.

 

I remember that passage you bring up. I also remember ADB having Angron take a boot stomp into a planet, and another Primarch took a dual turbo laser battery to the chest... it's all relative. I think the idea is these stories are told from different prespectives.

 

If I recall, I remember feeling quite disappointed when a couple of Harlequins kind of beat up on Magnus on the moon and banished him back to the warp. (I just remember how lame that scene read out. I think it may have been in relation to Guilliman.)

 

I take all these mega powerful moments with a grain of salt. Perhaps there's an outside (unseen) force manipulating the situation as well.

 

Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Magnus was beating Guilliman until blanks stepped in. And their fight was breaking the large moon.

[Just123456]

I think it's worth not over-emphasising some of those feats. In Master of Prospero, he did indeed succeed in lifting a single ship into orbit - with the assistance of several Sons who were consumed in the process, and leaving Magnus himself incapacitated. Similarly, Magnus 'kills two Titans' in A Thousand Sons, but needs a breather and protection from Phosis T'Kar in-between. He's clearly capable of raw physical feats far beyond almost all of the other Primarchs (bar a couple of cheeky Titan-kills), but the friendly 'my dad could beat up your dad' rivalry that pervades the 30k fanbase sometimes results in Magnus becoming effortlessly invincible, which he isn't.

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

Edited July 25, 2021 by Just123456

[Scammel]

 

I think it's worth not over-emphasising some of those feats. In Master of Prospero, he did indeed succeed in lifting a single ship into orbit - with the assistance of several Sons who were consumed in the process, and leaving Magnus himself incapacitated. Similarly, Magnus 'kills two Titans' in A Thousand Sons, but needs a breather and protection from Phosis T'Kar in-between. He's clearly capable of raw physical feats far beyond almost all of the other Primarchs (bar a couple of cheeky Titan-kills), but the friendly 'my dad could beat up your dad' rivalry that pervades the 30k fanbase sometimes results in Magnus becoming effortlessly invincible, which he isn't.

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

 

 

Well, again, it's worth providing additional context here. This is A: post-Tzeentch, and B: an act that requires monumental effort and strain, that basically leaves Khayon catatonic for the duration. Yes, it's an incredibly rare feat, but out of context it becomes 'the Thousand Sons can just throw ships at people'. 

[Xenith]

 

 

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

 

Well, again, it's worth providing additional context here. This is A: post-Tzeentch, and B: an act that requires monumental effort and strain, that basically leaves Khayon catatonic for the duration. Yes, it's an incredibly rare feat, but out of context it becomes 'the Thousand Sons can just throw ships at people'. 

 

 

Indeed. Just123456, please consider the context of your statements, especially when you're trying to build a strong argument. Yes, Khayon 'hurled' a ship at a planet, but the preceding several pages go into detail about how he is 'dragging' it, and how the process left him unaware of the world around him, unable to act, and could have died. 

 

As per Prot, characters have 'power levels' according to what they need to achieve in the story. If Magnus could just chuck a ship at Fenris, why would he go to the bother of physically assaulting it in 'Battle of the Fang', to try and destroy the apothecarum?

[Just123456]

 

 

I think it's worth not over-emphasising some of those feats. In Master of Prospero, he did indeed succeed in lifting a single ship into orbit - with the assistance of several Sons who were consumed in the process, and leaving Magnus himself incapacitated. Similarly, Magnus 'kills two Titans' in A Thousand Sons, but needs a breather and protection from Phosis T'Kar in-between. He's clearly capable of raw physical feats far beyond almost all of the other Primarchs (bar a couple of cheeky Titan-kills), but the friendly 'my dad could beat up your dad' rivalry that pervades the 30k fanbase sometimes results in Magnus becoming effortlessly invincible, which he isn't.

 

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

Well, again, it's worth providing additional context here. This is A: post-Tzeentch, and B: an act that requires monumental effort and strain, that basically leaves Khayon catatonic for the duration. Yes, it's an incredibly rare feat, but out of context it becomes 'the Thousand Sons can just throw ships at people'.

He was carrying the ship with his psychic strength for months with no rest and protecting it from the warp.

 

You left out context for the Eldar titans. Aghoru was interfering with psychic abilities and in the same book Magnus casually destroys a Gargant that wrecked a second level Titan.

 

Graham Mcneill said the Daemon who offered to destroy the fleet for Magnus would have been able to.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Just123456

[BrainFireBob]

Authors aren't recording facts- it's a made up universe. Authors will mismatch based on their vision and story needs

[Hfran Morkai]

Authors aren't recording facts- it's a made up universe. Authors will mismatch based on their vision and story needs

Stan Lee summed this up rather well (to paraphrase):

 

"People always ask me who would win in a fight. Who would win between the Thing and Spiderman? Who would win is whoever the author wants to win!"

[Just123456]

 

 

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

 

Well, again, it's worth providing additional context here. This is A: post-Tzeentch, and B: an act that requires monumental effort and strain, that basically leaves Khayon catatonic for the duration. Yes, it's an incredibly rare feat, but out of context it becomes 'the Thousand Sons can just throw ships at people'.

Indeed. Just123456, please consider the context of your statements, especially when you're trying to build a strong argument. Yes, Khayon 'hurled' a ship at a planet, but the preceding several pages go into detail about how he is 'dragging' it, and how the process left him unaware of the world around him, unable to act, and could have died.

 

As per Prot, characters have 'power levels' according to what they need to achieve in the story. If Magnus could just chuck a ship at Fenris, why would he go to the bother of physically assaulting it in 'Battle of the Fang', to try and destroy the apothecarum?

You do realize Magnus in Battle of the Fang was a severely diminished avatar that was further diminished against the psychic wards and anti Chaos runes? Edited July 27, 2021 by Just123456

[Irate Khornate]

Honestly I'm a bit lost. At first I thought it was a discussion that would relate to current rules Magnus, but it seems to be just talking about how strong he has been portrayed in books. What's the end goal here?

 

Dudes strength varies depending on the author when it comes to books and dies to a melta breeze like most other things on the tabletop.

[Scammel]

 

 

 

You do realize Khayon in Talon of Horus threw a two kilometer long ship at a planet after holding it for months with no rest and protecting it?

Well, again, it's worth providing additional context here. This is A: post-Tzeentch, and B: an act that requires monumental effort and strain, that basically leaves Khayon catatonic for the duration. Yes, it's an incredibly rare feat, but out of context it becomes 'the Thousand Sons can just throw ships at people'.

Indeed. Just123456, please consider the context of your statements, especially when you're trying to build a strong argument. Yes, Khayon 'hurled' a ship at a planet, but the preceding several pages go into detail about how he is 'dragging' it, and how the process left him unaware of the world around him, unable to act, and could have died.

 

As per Prot, characters have 'power levels' according to what they need to achieve in the story. If Magnus could just chuck a ship at Fenris, why would he go to the bother of physically assaulting it in 'Battle of the Fang', to try and destroy the apothecarum?

You do realize Magnus in Battle of the Fang was a severely diminished avatar that was further diminished against the psychic wards and anti Chaos runes?

 

 

It's pretty impressive if the Wolves can inscribe psychic wards in the vacuum of space itself.

[Xenith]

Avatar or not, weakened or not, that was the power level Magnus could achieve at that time, as evidenced by the book. He was a daemon in the warp and had to be summoned/possess someone, like all daemons.

 

Magnus's strength in the Fang, was indeed, probably a fraction of his full, in-warp strength, but it doesn't matter as that was his maximum power at the time. 

 

Since then, we see him in Warzone Fenris, blurring the warp and realspace, and he is thus more powerful.

 

We see him on the tabletop...and he can do what, kill 30 - 40 models per game? Is that how powerful he is?

 

Magnus is indeed powerful, probably the strongest Primarch, but daemon powers wax and wane, and will be presented differently at different times.  

[Just123456]

Avatar or not, weakened or not, that was the power level Magnus could achieve at that time, as evidenced by the book. He was a daemon in the warp and had to be summoned/possess someone, like all daemons.

 

Magnus's strength in the Fang, was indeed, probably a fraction of his full, in-warp strength, but it doesn't matter as that was his maximum power at the time.

 

Since then, we see him in Warzone Fenris, blurring the warp and realspace, and he is thus more powerful.

 

We see him on the tabletop...and he can do what, kill 30 - 40 models per game? Is that how powerful he is?

 

Magnus is indeed powerful, probably the strongest Primarch, but daemon powers wax and wane, and will be presented differently at different times.

 

Alright. Edited July 29, 2021 by Just123456

[USNCenturion]

Edit: please don’t take the following personal frater, this is more just me venting in general lol. That said, here goes.

 

These topics man…

 

He destroyed hundreds of ships in orbit because that’s what the author needed/wanted him to do. If an author needed an average guardsman to beat Magnus, guess what? That average guardsman would do something to defeat and banish Magnus.

 

Graham McNeill saying fluff doesn’t represent rules and visa versa is an obvious statement. Most authors and rules writers and gamers would agree with that I believe.

 

Furthermore, since we’re not dealing with historical or real life figures, the character can quite literally be anything and everything you want him/her/it to be. Is he able to beat up Perturabo or Guilliman or the Swarmlord? Yup. Does he like to go bowling in the eye of terror on Tuesdays? You know what, I think he does, and there is no power or written history on earth or the heavens saying he can’t or doesn’t. Is it likely? No, but that doesn’t matter, because one day I’m going to write a black library novel and put that little blurb about bowling in there. Now it’s lore/canon/whatever. Or it’s not.

 

Like a few others, I’m also confused as to the point of threads like this. I can get behind sci fi philosophy debates and what if’s, but the “Primarch X can outlift Primarch Y” statements and debates are inherently dead ends. There’s no right or wrong answer to them, yet people start threads stating otherwise and it just leads to arguments and hurt feelings.

 

Like yes, Magnus does seem able to just pull a moon out of the cosmos or warp, and slam it down onto Guilliman and Terra. Okay, great, chaos wins and the setting is over. Good game. Narratively though, that’s not how stories work. A hero and villain need to have conflict, and without one you can’t have the other.

 

I appreciate your sharing of the lore, I’m just not sure what you’re trying to say here beyond that?

Edited July 29, 2021 by EnsignJoker

[Xenith]

 

I appreciate your sharing of the lore, I’m just not sure what you’re trying to say here beyond that?

 

 

 

I don't understand - are you asking a question, or just sharing background with the group? What discussion do you want to have about it?

Sharing.

 

Just123456 has already said they're just sharing with the group - which I appreciate. I have't actually read the gathering storm stuff, I was travelling at the time ad there was so much of it...

[Just123456]

 

I appreciate your sharing of the lore, I’m just not sure what you’re trying to say here beyond that?

 

 

 

I don't understand - are you asking a question, or just sharing background with the group? What discussion do you want to have about it?

 

Sharing.

Just123456 has already said they're just sharing with the group - which I appreciate. I have't actually read the gathering storm stuff, I was travelling at the time ad there was so much of it...

I saw a few people say Magnus is as strong as the Emperor and might be stronger. When has anything said that? Magnus in unequivocally nowhere near the Emperor in strength, even Magnus acknowledges that. Below. The first is in Betrayer.

 

"You are as powerful as him, and your face dances in the same way.’ It was Magnus’s turn to chuckle. ‘I am not as strong as our father. Would that I was.’ Lorgar waved it aside. "

 

Even Daemon Magnus acknowledges that. The below is in the Siege of Terra books.

 

"You must find patience, my brother,’ Magnus said to Angron. ‘The warp is in turmoil around Terra, but no daemon may set foot there. Our father’s power holds back the tides of the empyrean. If you, I or Fulgrim were to attempt a landing, our souls would be torn from our bodies, and likely obliterated.’"

 

Next. The Emperor casually plays with the minds of thousands of Marines and casually pins Magnus in a seat and almost kills him telepathically speaking to him and sends ripples and tremors through his body before making him gasp for air as though he was a drowning man. Even the Thousands Sons Codex said the Emperor is stronger.

 

"THUS FAR, THE Emperor of Mankind had viewed the conclave’s proceedings from afar, an observer who hears all and deliberates without giving any clue to his thoughts. Now he moved to the edge of the dais, his armour shimmering in the light as the stars shone brightly once again. Ahriman tried to shift his consciousness into the Enumerations to keep his perceptions clear, but the power of the Emperor was too great and too magnificent to ever truly allow clarity of thought.

Every soul in the amphitheatre stared in wonder at this paragon of all that was good in humanity, the apotheosis of mankind’s dreams and hopes. His every word was seized upon and written in a thousand places, like the words once transcribed as the faithful recitation of a god from the forgotten ages. The scrivener harness of Mahavastu Kallimakus clattered to life in anticipation.

Thoughts of Kallimakus were forgotten as a warm sensation of approbation washed over him. Ahriman recognised this feeling for what it was, the influencing of another person by instilling a measure of your psyche into their aura. Ahriman could perform a similar feat, though on a handful of people at most. To reach out to so many thousands at once spoke of power beyond measure.

The Emperor’s sword was drawn, and his gaze locked with that of Magnus, as though they engaged in silent communion unheard by any others. Ahriman tore his gaze from the Emperor and saw that Magnus was pinned to his seat, his body rigid and his skin pale. His eye was tightly closed, and Ahriman saw an almost imperceptible tremor in his flesh, as though powerful currents of electricity were tearing through him.

“If I am guilty of anything, it is the pursuit of knowledge,” hissed Magnus through clenched teeth. “I am its master, I swear it.”

Ahriman could hear no more, for Magnus suddenly drew a gasping breath, like a drowning man upon finding the surface of an ocean. "

Edited July 31, 2021 by Just123456