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What to expect from 9e CSM


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#1
Marshal Loss

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Thought a list might be worthy of discussion, as various fraters have touched on bits and pieces in different topics under different headings, and it can be hard to keep track of what's going on if you don't follow developments with chaotic fanaticism. I've divided information into "confirmed", "probable", "possible", and "rumoured" at my own discretion. Where possible, I've linked sources. I might type out stat changes by hand when I have time, but for now have just included hyperlinked pictures.

 

Some "confirmed" changes are not ironclad, and it's possible things will change, but I think it's safe to assume that statlines will be largely consistent across books, with some exceptions (e.g. DG Possessed have T5, vanilla CSM Possessed will in all likelihood receive their other stat changes but stay T4).

 

CONFIRMED

PROBABLE

  • Death to the False Emperor being removed - probable (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS)
  • Hateful Assault being removed, all CSM gaining +1 attack instead - probable (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS, +1A received instead)
  • Cultists losing ObSec - probable (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS)
  • Cultist units allowed 1:1 with CSM (e.g. basic CSM, Chosen, Possessed) - probable (based on restrictions in Codex: DG & TS)
  • Veterans of the Long War will be changed to 2CP and only work on infantry - probable ("Eternal Hatred" in Codex: DG, "Wrath of the Wronged" in Codex: Thousand Sons)
  • Dark Hereticus powers will remain largely unchanged - probable (based off "Lore of Vengeance" in Codex: TS)
  • Linebreaker Bombardment and Killshot removed - probable (based off Codex: DG & TS)
  • QOL stratagem changes (e.g. changes to relic stratagem, inclusion of WL trait acquisition stratagem, smoke launchers removed from datasheets and turned into a stratagem) - probable (all but certain)
  • Existence of Boon Table for Crusade, which appears unchanged (other than ability names) in both Codex: DG and TS - probable
  • Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes 0-1 per detachment (based off Codex: DG & TS) - probable
  • Various Daemon Prince stat changes (e.g. +1S for Sword & Axe, -1AP + only 1 attack per Talon) - highly probable (based on C: DG and TS)

POSSIBLE

RUMOURED

  • World Eaters codex in 9th (Dosjetka, Valrak)
  • Possible model releases in 9th, from Dosjetka:
Spoiler

 

Let me know anything if I've missed anything, or made any mistakes, and I'll fix it. If the topic stays active I'll update the first post as information or rumours arise over the coming months.

  • What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?
  • Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?
  • Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?

Edited by Marshal Loss, 24 August 2021 - 09:26 PM.

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#2
WarriorFish

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I won't miss DttFE if it goes, it was a bit of a rubbish rule. It would have been much better if it applied to all, there's plenty of reasons for CSM to hate everyone but more importantly it makes for a better and fairer rule. It's not great when your army rule only exists in some games confused.gif Fingers crossed it is replaced with something nice.

 

I'm not sure about Hateful Assault, I thought this was a reflection of their Cult status as more elite troops? Same as how they can't go above 10 models - this might not necessarily apply to non-Cult CSM? I wouldn't mind getting a flat +1A though and it would simplify things a bit.

 

I will wait and see as always, it feels that C:CSM is going to turn into a more rounded Chaos force with more options if the rumours are to be believed. If this gives good choices in army structure we're on to a winner (i.e. LatD style force can be made and be effective, along with pure Marines etc). The rest is things like doctrines and that, but I haven't got the foggiest what these could be tongue.png I wouldn't call it optimism, but I can see the potential for something good so I'm looking forward to finding out if it can be fulfilled.


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#3
Sarvis

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Dosjetkas previous rumor proved true. If I were a betting man I’d bet on this coming through. All the listed units sound reasonable, and chaos of any stripe has been without a significant release for 2 years or so.

I, for one, am ecstatic for this potential release and that of world eaters.
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#4
Kaiju Soze

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If Death to the False Emperor isn't removed, it seems likely to become "additional hit" rather than "additional attack", given general trends. I'm actually expecting it to either stay or get rolled into some kind of Doctrines equivalent; there's a bit of a rules gap if it just goes without a replacement.

Other things I'd expect to see:
- 1 Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince per detachment
- 1 Cultist unit per CSM unit
- Daemonforge either goes or becomes "use top profile until end of phase"

Edited by Kaiju Soze, 20 August 2021 - 11:10 AM.

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#5
jgascoine011

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Double shoot will almost definitely go.
I expect bezerkers inbuilt fight twice will go and the fight twice strat will only be available to them (if that even stays)
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#6
SanguinaryGuardsman

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Double shoot will almost definitely go.
I expect bezerkers inbuilt fight twice will go and the fight twice strat will only be available to them (if that even stays)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if zerkers had their double fight changed to a fight on death ability like wulfen.  That just seems like the most lore friendly way to represent them on the table top.  If you always fight once you get stuck in then the blood always flows.  



#7
Galron

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If they do the unit locking to box contents it will defy 20+ years of the difference between loyalist and chaos terminators. The fact we can customize ours for specific or unspecific roles and they cant. As for Havocs, Devastators still get the option for all so I doubt Havocs will lose this. But as someone who extensively uses Terminators(I dont have a single 2k list that has less than 2 squads and my newest has 25) and havocs to a lesser degree(I usually have one) I will sell my armies if they screw us over like that or simply keep what works for 30k and sell the rest. Terminators and customization of them is why I play them and have been my favorite part of the army since 2nd edition. I'm still ticked they moved the Sonic Dread to legends, my hatred runs deep. My Iron Warriors army is based off of an assault force of 20 terminators and 9 oblits(based off of 30k Tyrant termies), each 5 or 10 man unit with a specific job.


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#8
Putrid Choir

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Good idea and good execution Marshal Loss!

I agree with Kaiju Soze about only one Lord and Daemon Prince per detatchment, that will probably make it into the codex, I'd put it under probable. I don't know about the one cultist unit per astartes though, if the rumor about the new units are true they might let you make a cultist themed army.

@Warriorfish: I think marines will go to 10 models per unit. Tacticals did, I think it was more about avoiding a 40W troop unit. Also limits the strength of buffs (strats, spells and such).

I'm not a fan of Dttfe. I don't care for the fact that it only works on imperium keyword. I don't care for <faction> targeting stuff, it can be fluffy (Grey knights against daemons for example) but rules wise it can be unbalanced. GW already has a hard enough time trying to balance the game/factions.

As for your three questions:

I'm hoping for just a fat codex. I don't want multiple books. If they did a supplement I think it would be one for the remaining Legions, not individual. But who knows. If they did individual books I'd imagine they might as well do a unique character per and proper upgrade sprues too.

No idea what the mono bonus will be. They will get one though. I would have never guessed DG's mono bonus (-1T growing aura), so I won't try guessing their's haha.

I'm not sure what will come with a codex, but I think they need a redone fast attack (bikes?) first. With the last wave they got 3 redone or new heavy support (havoc, oblits and venomcrawler), 2 elites (greater possessed and terminators), 20 marine sculpts (troops) and a whole bunch of HQ (6?). So there is currently no new fast attack. And the bike kit is older than the raptor/warptalon, right?
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#9
Galron

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The bike kit I think is from 2nd edition. Those are actually new raptor/warptalons. They have gone through 3 iterations since 3rd. 


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#10
Closet Skeleton

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The bike kit I think is from 2nd edition. Those are actually new raptor/warptalons. They have gone through 3 iterations since 3rd. 

Bike kit is a really early 3rd ed release. That's why the riders were compatable with the old chaos marines and the design is slightly better than the loyalist bikes but not as good as the Scout bikes. Berzerkers came slightly after and then the old regular chaos marines.

 

Raptors are 6th ed along with the Mutilators, Helbrute, Heldrake and Forgefiend.

 

Oldest kits after the Bikes and Berzerkers are the Defiler, Land Raider and Rhino family from later in 3rd ed and the Daemon Prince, Possessed and Chaos Spawn from 4th ed.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 20 August 2021 - 02:18 PM.


#11
TrawlingCleaner

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While havocs have never had a restriction, they are a newer kit. I can definitely see terminators, havocs and chaos marines all being slapped with a restricted load out based on their box. Plague marines, blight lords, kabalites, wyches, rangers and vanguard all also got hit with this so it seems to be a trend. Not Astartes though of course.

Astartes kept shock assault, I could see CSM keeping it too to keep the cult and the non cult different maybe?

A common trend between Rubric and Plague marines is ignoring morale modifiers

#12
MegaVolt87

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We don't have transhuman strat or apothecary, 20 naked CSM with the wound bump will match tac marine points. That would be 360 points, not exactly cheap. Also remember they take full dmg from blast. To me, WE should hit back on death in melee while EC are the ones that should be fighting twice in melee. Also fixed loadouts from the box would kill the CSM faction, it sucks for DG IMO. I play chaos for the customisable loadouts. If I wanted fixed loadouts I would play loyalists.
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#13
WarriorFish

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It'd be a shame to lose 11+ squads as it's a nice difference to have and fun putting big squads down, but I don't think they'll be that great. Durable yes (morale aside), but not particularly killy or mobile? My expectations are low but I cling to the hope their differences to Cult troops might make the difference here. I can't see them getting immunity to morale for example.

 

The biker kit is an obvious one for an update to the core CSM range if not for me personally, I'd love to see an updated Defiler.


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#14
gaurdian31

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I definitely see them going to 1 cultist unit to 1 csm unit in a standard csm army due to the faq from Charadon Book 2 stating:

"Page 75 - Restrictions Change the third bullet point to read: ‘You cannot include more Chaos Cultists units than other Heretic Astartes Infantry units (excluding Character units) in each Detachment in your army." 


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#15
Juggernut

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Oh wow, great thread!

 

Some changes from DG and TS that I had no idea about. 


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#16
EnsignJoker

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Thanks for the thread Marshal, great topic.

I’d like to see new bikes and new possessed for sure. A plastic decimator would also be a wishlist item for me.

I’m hoping we get individual legion supplements; there would only need to be 5 books since the cult legions should each have their own big codex. I have doubts we’ll get those though; we’re still waiting for the loyalist supplement books to be updated.

I can’t begin to imagine what we might get for our mono faction bonus. Something like Necrons or Ad Mech to reflect tactics and strategies? A miracle dice system like sisters? A bonus to AP or attacks or something like Space Marines?

I really hope they can find a way to make Word Bearers competitive again, especially since summoning is apparently a dead mechanic.

Letting Iron Warriors use basilisks is my pipe dream icing on the cake wish lol
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#17
WrathOfTheLion

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I would like each of the main legions that don't have a unique character to get one, like the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, etc.

New bikes, possessed, etc. would be well received.

 

Something good for Word Bearers I second as well. Perhaps leaning more into the possessed side of things may work well?


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#18
EnsignJoker

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Perhaps they’ll give rules back to the marks, instead of allowing them to trigger/be targets for stratagems and spells. Mark of Khorne gives you advance and charge, slaanesh let’s you ignore cover, Nurgle gives +1 toughness, tzeentch gives a 6+ invuln. This would have the added benefit of freeing up rules to give legions better and more thematic traits, and a units icon could improve the mark abilities in some way (5+ invuln to tzeentch for example) ((though the icon of flame is already changed in TS so maybe never mind))
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#19
Goreshed

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Given that DG and TS have their own codex I could see WE and EC getting their own as well, with primarchs to boot. The fact that GW has been insanely tight lipped about Chaos in general leads me to believe that 2022 will be filled with a lot of Chaos. Any time they go as silent as they do that means a rather large shake up, be it with simply models or a combination of new models and fluff as well.

 

To go with the new WE/EC codex's I could also see a book along the lines of the regular marine dex that provides something for those legions that will most likely never get a secondary book (IW/WB/NL/AL/BL). While I'm not expecting it, having individual special characters for each of the mono legions would be nice, but given GW's usual operating methods I doubt it. Even if its just up to date rules to utilize the legions (perhaps with their own individual crusade rules....) would be nice.

 

Model wise I'd sound like a broken record, bikes, possessed, mutilators, rhino, pred, landraider, defiler, but also all of the human side of it as well. I'd love to see more options for a mortal chaos army but I am very much doubtful of it.


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#20
Putrid Choir

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I'd love to see more options for a mortal chaos army but I am very much doubtful of it.


I don't want any of that cultist/human stuff to be honest in the chaos marine codex. Save it for renegades and their own proper codex. I hate when people argue "chaos warbands have tons of cultists, way more humans than marines". While completely true, it's even more true for loyalist. Largest legion was the ultramarines and it was still less than 300,000 marines. The imperial guard has to be way up in the trillions for their numbers (based on the scope of the imperium being 1,000,000 planets). There are only a few million space marines. At some point quantity takes over quality. I don't see Astra militarium units in a space marine codex, so I don't want any other human units in the chaos codex (barring cultist, cause they are already an option and taking options away sucks for players).

All my opinion of course. How many of you would rather have the humans in the chaos marine codex versus saving it for their own renegade and hereticus codex (or whatever it would be called)? I rather they just make the vanilla chaos space marine point effecient and fun with the marks and legion traits and see plenty of them on the table instead of massed cultists.
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#21
Doctor Perils

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@putrid choir, the difference is loyalists will generally operate independently, which isn't the case with chaos armies. I do agree they shouldn't reduce the space for our Astartes units to make room for a R&H list, but I'd be ok expanding the size of our codex like what loyalists have in primaris

What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?
I think the most likely is campaign books or white dwarf indexes. Supplement: traitor legions is the second most likely. Individual supplements would be my preferred choice though

Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?
Not sure about general faction rules, but I hope we'll see a Black Crusade rule for the Crusade System allowing characters to progress towards daemonic ascension - once it triggers you have to play a game: if you win, you ascend, if you lose you go to spawn without passing GO

Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?
While I love the Daemon engines and possessed and stuff like that, what I'd actually like to see expanded is our range of "vanilla" stuff (marine squads, bikers, things like that) - the reaper chain cannon was a step in the right direction, but I think there's room for stuff like a breacher unit, something that changes up the classic formula
I'd also like to see our roster of heroes expanded and changed a bit - more stuff like the greater possessed having several units for a slot, heroes moving out of HQ into elites, etc. - have dual kit heroes that can make a named character (eg a warpsmith/IW warsmith dualkit)

Bikers and chosen are the most likely, followed by a dual kit defiler. We might also see a new centrepiece kit, perhaps in the pseudo diorama style (triumph of Saint Katherine and co)
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#22
Juggernut

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Let me know anything if I've missed anything, or made any mistakes, and I'll fix it. If the topic stays active I'll update the first post as information or rumours arise over the coming months.

  • What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?
  • Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?
  • Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?

 

 

Some thoughts, might be repeats of what others have said a bit:

 

1. I think campaign books will come, introducing new rules for CSM and others. This is where they will list the common profile for those units listed above that have been updated. I feel like they're gonna do this before updating the codex, so they can sell more books. I admit I'm jaded, and could be wrong. However, the established pattern seems to be more books without updating the main codex/content, so I assume we'll continue getting more of that for a while. 6th edition through now sure seems like it fits that pattern, and it's repeated over years and across editions.

 

2. I'm not sure we'll get a special rules mechanic/similar to DG/TS. Not having a similar rules mechanic might be the CSM flavor (as now). Continue relying on a basic, mostly lacking special rules datasheet for the majority of our units, and then characters who can buff the heck out of them to make them insanely killy and such. Again, that is just based off the existing pattern from 6th that I mentioned that I feel is a real thing. The buffs we lost in terms of the special detachments and such might be returned in some form. I would be pleasantly surprised if there was a faction-wide rules mechanic, and even though they have been quite creative with some of the codices in 9th, who knows what they'll do. 

 

My wishlist #1 would just be better units at the basic datasheet level, and the buffs that come from the characters are great but their absence doesn't immediately relegate the units they're buffing to the shelf. With or without army-wide mechanics. I think some sort of fel ritual would be a cool army mechanic. The enforced balance of cultists and marines is actually really cool in theory, but without updates to both units is just an arbitrary hamstringing of troops. Example: unit of cultists begins chanting; inflict d3 mortal wounds on the unit to buff a HERETIC ASTARTES unit on the table in some way. Or generate 1 CP. Or something. If they're just crummy mortal mooks filling out a detachment again, I'll be disappointed.

 

3. I think others have covered this pretty well. I'd be surprised if Chosen stayed as an option in our codex, or if they do, they'll use the same kit as the basic CSM and it'll be a rules-based thing, as it is now. The no-model-no-rules thing, if finally applied to Chosen, needs to be resolved. They're not gonna give us 5 of everything in a kit. Taking 1 or 2 of everything is kinda dumb too, so I really don't know. I'm most excited to see what they do with this unit, though I could honestly take them or leave them as a codex entry. I think they have a lot of cool potential, including objective-secured elites. This seems like a unit that should very obviously be ob-sec, to me. Same with terminators. Other armies have ways of making other battlefield role units ob-sec, so CSM should too. I'd rather it be a set rule than a warlord trait aura, the way loyalists get.

 

I bet we won't see cult marines touched until WE/EC come out. No new special characters whatsoever. Warpsmith as a new plastic sculpt, MAYBE plastic power armor chaos lord, but since the blackstone fortress mini exists, maybe not.

 

Lol reading it back it's so negative, but I swear I'm not all doom and gloom. I just have very low expectations for any changes, based on the pattern I mentioned. I will be the biggest cheerleader for any positive changes. Promise. tongue.png


Edited by Juggernut, 21 August 2021 - 01:16 PM.

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#23
BrainFireBob

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Holding my breath on terminators and Chosen.

Really curious to see what they do with Cults in the generic CSM book.

I desperately want movement options for the Apostle, Exalted Champ (who I suspect will be cut), and Warpsmith. Bike, jump pack, termie armor.

Firestrikes should have been a CSM option, from a needs POV.
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#24
Goreshed

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@Putrid Choir - It's been talked about a thousand times over in the renegade section of the forum. Not having a mortal followers of Chaos army when the Imperium syncs so well together does us a disservice. So, between the models from Blackstone fortress and the new cultists models, one can wish cant they? Getting the power armored side squared away would be a huge boon, even if the mortal side suffers as it always has.


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#25
Excessus

Excessus

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Great thread Marshal!

I have a question, if all the CSM units get +1w, what about the HQ choices? Do they benefit as well?
"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

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