What to expect from 9e CSM

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

The daemonworld armylist at the back of the book where you could take chaos knights (the horse-riding kind) and beastmen was very flavourful.

 

I cant wait to finish my backlog of stuff for playing 1st ed games, then I can play about with the appendix lists as I never got round to that back in the day. Agreed on the 2nd ed dex being the best, Realms of Chaos not included (2 books covering 3 systems are a different beast to a codex book imho). 

 

++EDIT++

 

I realised I still have some fantasy chaos knights and other bits kicking about, I may bump up a small Daemon World army up my to do list actually. Will make a nice change from Guardsmen. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Slave to Darkness

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 We've had AoS Khorne in 2015, Khârn in 2016; TS in 2016, Arcanites in 2017; DG in 2017, Maggotkin in 2018; and now Hedonites of Slaanesh in 2019 and 2021.

 

Most of the Nurgle mortals are from Endtimes: Glotkin, only the rotly riding cavalry and a hero came out with the Nurgle Daemons in January 2018. Some of the AoS Khorne also came out with the last Endtime book and the plastic Bloodthirster. Khorne also got the plastic Flesh Hounds at the same time as the Slaanesh plastics.

[Marshal Loss]

Mortals and daemons have been worked on concurrently since at least the TS/Arcanites release, and e.g. Maggotkin only receiving a handful of mortal kits is irrelevant, as the ET kits were not designed alongside them (it's not a case of "wave 1" and "wave 2" of the same release like we've seen with numerous factions in recent years). Both the DG and Maggotkin releases were completed in c. 2.5 years from start to finish. There will inevitably be releases unconnected/only tangentially connected to major revamps, that's not news.

 

When I have time, I'll add sources, quotes & a section on this to the front post, as it is somewhat related to the main CSM book and some confusion seems to exist in certain quarters.

[Closet Skeleton]

Mortals and daemons have been worked on concurrently since at least the TS/Arcanites release,

There was only 1 or 2 daemons in the Arcanite release. Everything but the Blues/Brimstones, Lord of Change and Changeling are really old. Tzeentch had no metal/finecast non-character daemons.

 

Slaanesh might have been worked on at the same time but it still took 2 years to release the mortals so the Slaanesh and Khorne hounds felt more like wave 2 of the daemons (nurgle being wave 1)

 

I forgot about the Khorne Herald and Skulltaker, so Khorne actually got 4 kits + the terrain (only one which has 40k rules) while Tzeentch only got 2. Or 3, I think the blue horrors came out closer to Silver Tower/Thousand Sons.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Marshal Loss]

Slaanesh might have been worked on at the same time

 

Not "might", this is an established fact.

 

 

Mortals and daemons have been worked on concurrently since at least the TS/Arcanites release,

There was only 1 or 2 daemons in the Arcanite release.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Neither the Maggotkin nor the Arcanites releases were huge in terms of "number of kits received" by recent standards, but they were developed concurrently with 1) a wave of mortal content + their first ever dedicated book(s), and 2) their 40k counterparts, and we know both 1) and 2) for a fact. Simple.

 

In any case, this is the "what to expect from 9e CSM" topic and I really would prefer not to get this topic locked, so as above I'll edit sources into the OP later, and say no more on this.

[Goreshed]

Lets face it, Chaos is lumped into the same category at times as the xenos, which means lack of support which means a smaller player base compared to those armies who get supported more often. It just is what it is.

 

World Eaters and Emperor's Children are two easily done up armies with enough established fluff and units that they could be slid into their own book apiece. I could totally see them releasing those two armies at once in a rival vs rival chaos grudge match. That still leaves the regular dex, daemons and knights for already established armies. Not to mention the possibility of a mortals and dark mechanicum army.

 

I truly suspect GW to release some sort of mortals with the basic army since that did seem fairly popular in the past two editions and I'm ok with that. It's something at least, when chaos players were complaining they didn't have a scouts counter. Well we got it in the form of cultists (it is an entirely new thread going between the ups and downs of both units). I'm not really expecting new units, maybe some special characters, but the flavor of the new edition bodes well for us.

 

Looking back I dont think there has been a single 'well this army is complete trash' thread about any one book that has been released for 9th. It gives me high hopes that GW will continue that trend for Chaos and with its level of secrecy with the release of Chaos I can easily see some serious kit rebuilds and lore drops for the coming 9th edition Chaos (in all its glory).

[Closet Skeleton]

Lets face it, Chaos is lumped into the same category at times as the xenos, which means lack of support which means a smaller player base compared to those armies who get supported more often. It just is what it is.

Chaos' problem is not lack of support, we've had way more chaos kits than Xenos kits up until 9th ed brought Necrons and (soon) Orks. Chaos got a Vigilus book of their own while everyone else got squeezed into part 1. Eldar got squeezed into 1 Psychic Awakening book while chaos were split among several.

 

The Chaos rules are a mess because of the way trickled and badly organised support added up.

 

Imperial Guard have got a shorter end of the stick in support than any Chaos faction.

 

Less, more focused support would probably be better for Chaos. Chaos seems to be not the unfavoured forgotten faction but the test faction that gets all the bad ideas thrown at them. We're the only faction to get loose datasheets in Chapter Approved, only one to get a whole book of Specialist detachments, only one to get a expanded but not properly rewritten 8th ed Codex.

 

Tyranids seem to be about to break the 'Warzone book for an 8th ed codex' being only a Chaos Marines/Daemons thing but Chaos still got that tested first.

 

Model wise Chaos was massively supported in late 7th and 8th ed, the book team ineptly messed things up on the game side but we have nothing to complain about on the kits side.

 

 

 

Looking back I dont think there has been a single 'well this army is complete trash' thread about any one book that has been released for 9th. It gives me high hopes that GW will continue that trend for Chaos and with its level of secrecy with the release of Chaos I can easily see some serious kit rebuilds and lore drops for the coming 9th edition Chaos (in all its glory).

I'm pretty sure 8th ed Grey Knights have been the only 'trash on release' codex since 7th ended. Unless you count Sisters complaining about losing the Index double actions crutch.

 

There have been 'well this army is complete trash' posts for most things.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Goreshed]

@Closet Skeleton - Can't really argue the first part. IG have taken it hard for a while now and have really been kept up from the soup lists of 8th edition but with those being thrown out in most cases they are back to square one.

 

As to the second point...well...there are always those who will complain for one reason or another, cant make everyone happy. Overall 9th looks to be capitalizing on the changes made from 8th and the consistency is greater than we have seen before with codexs compared to previous edition. -IF- GW makes it through the entire release and stays consistent then it would be a miracle in and of itself given the companies history. Which leaves more hope for the chaos community that we aren't going to be the guinea pigs of an edition.

[Xenith]

Overall 9th looks to be capitalizing on the changes made from 8th and the consistency is greater than we have seen before with codexs compared to previous edition. 

 

This is what finally made me get Codex: Thousand Sons. While each codex release isn't always the new most powerful, there hasn't been a bad one, as far as I can tell. Even Thousand Sons, one of the most beat down and unfavoured forces in the game got an ok codex (for now) this time.

 

Things from the front page: Hellbrutes will get the new version of Fire Frenzy (reroll 1's to wound after sufferting a wound) instead of the old (after suffering a wound, on a 6 make a free shooting/melee action).

[Special Officer Doofy]

I caved and sold my two start collecting chaos space marines and decimation battlebox. GW must not want me to have a third army, leaving chaos at 1W for so long. Tired of waiting and if the rumors dosjetka said are true, I want nothing to do with renegade guard, cultist and human mutants.

[Danielatar]

For me it doesn't matter if there are renegade guard, cultists and mutants in the codex. As long as pure CSM and CSM+mortals are both viable I am good.

[MegaVolt87]

For me it doesn't matter if there are renegade guard, cultists and mutants in the codex. As long as pure CSM and CSM+mortals are both viable I am good.

Mortal chaos bundled with CSM and not as a separate stand alone force, has made that a worry. I would not be worried about CSM if it was a separate faction.

[Warsmith sargos]

In the book of fire, i think we have a glimpse on what mark of chaos will do (stratagem shadow pact).

I wonder if the new warpsmith is just a lord discordent on foot with a hammer

[Khornestar]

In the book of fire, i think we have a glimpse on what mark of chaos will do (stratagem shadow pact).

I wonder if the new warpsmith is just a lord discordent on foot with a hammer , seem like we wont get ignore line of sight again

 

What ignore line of sight related to a warpsmith do we have in the current codex? 

 

Also, I guess up until this very moment I didn't really think about how worthwhile a hammer is for a warpsmith. I kinda find I don't care what they're armed with, moreso their vehicle repair/buffing/debuffing abilities. Shooting much more valuable for them, IMO, and the hammer will just drive the points up a TON. If it is wargear for the warpsmith, I hope it's optional.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Juggernut

[Cerberus1775]

My one hope is that the CP penalty for mixed forces wont apply to CSM and friends.  If it does penalize, it does.  Just wont feel as lore friendly to Chaos as it could.  As I have said before whatever we get I will make it work.  

[Closet Skeleton]

My one hope is that the CP penalty for mixed forces wont apply to CSM and friends.  If it does penalize, it does.  Just wont feel as lore friendly to Chaos as it could.  As I have said before whatever we get I will make it work.  

There's no CP penalty for mixed forces, only for multiple detachments which doesn't have to mean faction mixing at all.

 

Its 9e daemons that will change summoning. Currently you can mix daemons and marines without using multiple detachments, you just lose daemon stratagems and have to rely on summoning.

 

Mixing CSM legions while keeping legion traits in a single detachment isn't going to happen.

 

Mixed clan Ork Waaghs are just as fuffy as mixed legion warbands and need multiple detachments to keep clan kulturs.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Cerberus1775]

 

My one hope is that the CP penalty for mixed forces wont apply to CSM and friends.  If it does penalize, it does.  Just wont feel as lore friendly to Chaos as it could.  As I have said before whatever we get I will make it work.  

There's no CP penalty for mixed forces, only for multiple detachments which doesn't have to mean faction mixing at all.

 

Its 9e daemons that will change summoning. Currently you can mix daemons and marines without using multiple detachments, you just lose daemon stratagems and have to rely on summoning.

 

Mixing CSM legions while keeping legion traits in a single detachment isn't going to happen.

 

Mixed clan Ork Waaghs are just as fuffy as mixed legion warbands and need multiple detachments to keep clan kulturs.

 

It may not happen but you can still hope. 

 

Also my apologies for not being more specific in what I meant.    I did mean Detachments in my post.  

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Like the new DG units, the new Templar Sword Brethren are locked to the contents of their box -- not as much customization as we have been used to for the last 20 years.  I fear what this means for us in our new codex next year -- particularly as it applies to Chosen. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

It's a classic GW move haha. Complain about how we don't put all the wargear options in the box? How about we change the wargear options to what's in the box! I mean it does solve the initial complaint I guess haha. I wonder what it will do to new datasheets/kits going forward.

[Irate Khornate]

Like the new DG units, the new Templar Sword Brethren are locked to the contents of their box -- not as much customization as we have been used to for the last 20 years. I fear what this means for us in our new codex next year -- particularly as it applies to Chosen.

This is why haven't built my terminators yet.

[Khornestar]

Like the new DG units, the new Templar Sword Brethren are locked to the contents of their box -- not as much customization as we have been used to for the last 20 years. I fear what this means for us in our new codex next year -- particularly as it applies to Chosen.

 

I was thinking the same; I got all sorts of Chosen vibes from the kit and rules. I even bet CSM will get a strat to make chosen ObSec.

[Cryptix]

I'm personally hoping that for Terminators and Chosen, they get Chainaxe/Combi-bolter and Chainsword/Bolter as base loadouts respectively, anyone can upgrade their melee weapon to a power weapon, and for every 5 models in the unit you can replace 0-1 model's melee weapon to any or all from power fist, thunder hammer/chainfist, or replace both melee weapon and ranged weapon with 2x lightning claws.

 

I'd like to keep the whole unit getting to upgrade to combi-weapons on terminators, but I think that's not going to happen looking at the precendents.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I really, really, really don't want to have to rearm (literally!) all ten of my Terminators.

[Special Officer Doofy]

People had to redo their plague marines and blightlord terminators after the new DG codex came out. Hope for the best, plan for the worst!

[MegaVolt87]

I'm personally hoping that for Terminators and Chosen, they get Chainaxe/Combi-bolter and Chainsword/Bolter as base loadouts respectively, anyone can upgrade their melee weapon to a power weapon, and for every 5 models in the unit you can replace 0-1 model's melee weapon to any or all from power fist, thunder hammer/chainfist, or replace both melee weapon and ranged weapon with 2x lightning claws.

 

I'd like to keep the whole unit getting to upgrade to combi-weapons on terminators, but I think that's not going to happen looking at the precendents.

 

That would be terrible IMO. And it would be worse, the stock loadout could match the box contents meaning there would be no chance for even the part of stock loadout of chain axe + combi bolter because there isn't even x5 chain axes in the new CSM termi box. Terminators are the elite of SM/CSM, they should be more than able to weapon stack more so than other units. 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354832-a-long-war-vet-returns-iron-warriors-project/?p=5629629  x3 CF+CB, x7 twin LC legal in 30k and 40k currently. GW can   right off if that unit is no longer legal in 40k with a new 9th ed CSM dex. My plan is for termi's, preads/ sicarans and power armoured infantry on foot with the new dex. I'll just go play primaris otherwise, my DIY chapter is actually pretty cool and are UM successors to boot.