What to expect from 9e CSM

[WickedJester1013]

I think what covers them as far as daemon princes go is that you are limited to 1 per detachment and can only have so many detachments. For the other units mentioned I don’t think there is a clear answer. The chaos book is all messed up with your outdated rubric and plague marines lol. The way I see it is your asking for theoretical rules talk, to that I would say the spirit is to limit spam and to me it seems like rules lawyering to get around it. If your asking because you want to do it on the table your better off asking your local GW/TO/friend group. Cheers!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm pretty sure the limit on demon princes across chaos codexes remains, and is buried in the match play rules along with the more general rule of 3.  I'll take a look at my rulebook when I get home and report back. :)

[Marshal Loss]

I'm pretty sure the limit on demon princes across chaos codexes remains, and is buried in the match play rules along with the more general rule of 3.  I'll take a look at my rulebook when I get home and report back.

Yeah, you're right - page 280, in the matched play section:

 

 

 

...each player can only include the same datasheet in their army three times. For the purposes of this restriction, the Daemon Prince, Daemon Prince of Chaos, Daemon Prince of Nurgle and Daemon Prince of Tzeentch are all considered to be the same datasheet.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Lord Marshal]

I wonder what's going to happen with the Renegade Chapters who have rules. Removed? Put into a separate supplement? Actually kept on/updated along with the Legions?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Beat case scenario? We get make-your-own-warband rules like other factions are getting, and those traits get wrapped up into that.

[Dhar'Neth]

What do I expect from new codex? Disappointment. I believe that we are going into the low-power phase and CSM will get an underpowered and simplified codex (again).

 

Furthermore, it looks more, and more that instead of new Marine units, we will get new Daemon Engines instead. CSM look and feel more like DarkMech instead of Legions of chaotic marines. I would love to get new shooting Jump pack unit, a new chaotic tank and a real flyer (like hell talon).

[techsoldaten]

What do I expect from new codex? Disappointment. I believe that we are going into the low-power phase and CSM will get an underpowered and simplified codex (again).

 

Furthermore, it looks more, and more that instead of new Marine units, we will get new Daemon Engines instead. CSM look and feel more like DarkMech instead of Legions of chaotic marines. I would love to get new shooting Jump pack unit, a new chaotic tank and a real flyer (like hell talon).

 

I'm usually not one to echo pessimism, but here we go.

 

Wondering what the design direction for CSM is and whether GW can pull it off. If the rumors about upcoming releases are to be believed, we are going to be seeing a lot of infantry in 2022. And some of it is Renegade Guard.

 

Considering the models, I get the sense GW is looking to take Chaos down the cheap troops / elite HQ route. Considering hints laid out in various places, I get the sense the rules will favor daemon engines / monstrous creatures / armor.

 

My hunch is the Codex will be disjointed, having some glaring issues with 9th edition mechanics, and lead to mediocre armies. Would love to be proved wrong.

[tinpact]

With more mortals apparently being on the menu, I hope that means a rework of the Mere Mortals rule - full or reduced legion traits for cultists would be neat. Really, anything to make them more interesting than bags of wounds you put on objectives would be welcome. If they really wanted to knock my socks off, they could bring back the retinue rule, but that's just wishlisting.

 

As far as the codex goes, Necrons, Drukhari, Orks, and Death Guard have all been pretty interesting, and varying levels of powerful - I'd wait for GSC and T'au to see if the trend continues to extend to non-Imperium books.

[techsoldaten]

With more mortals apparently being on the menu, I hope that means a rework of the Mere Mortals rule - full or reduced legion traits for cultists would be neat. Really, anything to make them more interesting than bags of wounds you put on objectives would be welcome. If they really wanted to knock my socks off, they could bring back the retinue rule, but that's just wishlisting.

 

As far as the codex goes, Necrons, Drukhari, Orks, and Death Guard have all been pretty interesting, and varying levels of powerful - I'd wait for GSC and T'au to see if the trend continues to extend to non-Imperium books.

 

It's not as if GW doesn't know how to write a Codex.

 

The 8th edition Codex was terrific for 8th. Had a lot of success with it.

 

I just don't know whether or not to look at it as an anomaly. There are many ways this could go wrong.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I hope Creations of Bile stay. I really like them the most.

[nanosquid]

I'm not sure how I feel about the rumors so far. I hope if there are new daemon engines they're actually engines, like the plagueburst crawler, instead of the metal dinosaurs and insects we've been getting. As cool as they are we've covered that ground more than well enough, and I want to see more "why does that tank have teeth" and less "mechagodzilla".

 

As an Iron Warriors guy, more mortals would be great. We love our Cannon fodder, of course. I do agree with some earlier posts that they really need to get something akin to the legion trait if they're expanding to that many datasheets.

[undivided_apostle]

With CSM I always try to lower my expectations.  I wouldn't be surprised if the mortal portion is just integrating the Blackstone fortress stuff into the codex.  The character with the banner could be the traitor command commissar.  I think the bike kit will be like the terminator kit in that it is just improving and rescaling the minis, same for possessed kit. 

 

I hope that chosen are slightly re-worked so they don't feel like a lesser dark mirror to vanguard/sternguard (similar to how havocs feel different from devastators).  I want them to be more than 4 CSM with plasma guns in a 5-man squad (not that they shouldn't be able to do that but at least add some flavor even if it's just a ribbon).  Same for the Warpsmith.  One of the reasons that I really liked the lord discordant is that there isn't a loyalist equivalent and I think we need more flavor.

 

As for 9th.  I am almost certain our go to stratagems will be removed or the core keyword will be added (Endless Cacaphony, Vothlw) others will be added to make up for it (more than likely from the specialist detachments that were removed).  Next Prediction we will not be given an equivalent to combat doctrines but to make up for it Marks will be more meaningful (this is where I am setting myself up for disappointment).  Less notable renegades will a get a satisfying make your own warband (until six months to a year before 10th at which they will get an awesome sourcebook).  The underperforming legions and notable renegade warbands will be buffed.  The stronger ones will be nerfed a little (Eventually they too get sourcebooks).        

 

I think if you liked Shadow Spear you will be really happy if not it might be frustrating (until the aforementioned sourcebooks are released).  I expect them to continue to push daemon engines/possessed strategies this edition.  Much like 7th and 8th I expect cool sourcebooks before the edition ends (hopefully they will stay valid longer)

[Marshal Loss]

Taken the opportunity to update the OP with recent developments and the rumour engines, etc. Things are getting exciting! Hopefully we'll have more to discuss very soon.

[Plague _Lord]

OK here's my take on all this:

 

Chosen

Wishlist - make them super compatible ala Deathwatch kill teams. Give them new weapons, new guns and options for in squad upgrades (ala black shield). Even go back to the 3,5 days and let them have terminators and aspiring sorcerors in their ranks.

 

Probable - we get a black templars sword brethren type unit, so that means a regular veteran squad with special weapon options and an extra rule/keywords on top. So not much different than what we have now

 

Chaos Marines

Wishlist -  we get buyable veteran upgrades like back in the old days + marks buff stats - MoN gives +1T and Khorne +1 A for example. Make chaos marine squads feel like they are vets. It's not like anyone will be spamming these guys anyway.

 

Probable - Marks stay just being keywords, while we might actually see squad or champion upgrades ala black templar relics. TBH it would be sad to see single model upgrades...

 

 

General thoughs/guesses:

 

I would like to see cultists going to trash tier units, not in a sense of worthiness but in a sense of stats. They should be untrained regular humans, so even worse than PDF. They should go down the route of conscripts so super cheap, no ob sec and really no martial prowess. Then we go up a tier to renegade guard - regular guardsman stats and equipment but without orders. Let them take marks of chaos if they actually do something. These guys would still be cheap but better equipped, have ob sec and could be more usefull, especially with strats and buffs. Then we get to mutant rabble - cheap but tough and strong at the same time. These guys would be like Deldar wracks, while the big mutants would be like grotesques, albeit with lesser defensive capabilities. I'm pretty sure they want to make use of those gellerpox infected models and use them as a base for this unit.

 

I really like the idea of CSM being a horde army - lot's of human and mutant scum backed up by really elite marine and daemon engine units. The most important change would be to buff regular space marines to a level that they will actually be worth taking, especially if we are to get all these cheap troops options. 

[MCC]

OK here's my take on all this:

 

 

Chaos Marines

Wishlist -  we get buyable veteran upgrades like back in the old days + marks buff stats - MoN gives +1T and Khorne +1 A for example. Make chaos marine squads feel like they are vets. It's not like anyone will be spamming these guys anyway.

 

Probable - Marks stay just being keywords, while we might actually see squad or champion upgrades ala black templar relics. TBH it would be sad to see single model upgrades...

 

 

I love your idea about the marks and hope that's the route they go for! Id happily pay 3-5 points per model to get +1T or +1A as you mentioned. I think that would make people actually take Chaos marines in a chaos army! 

[SyNidus]

OK here's my take on all this:

 

Chosen

Wishlist - make them super compatible ala Deathwatch kill teams. Give them new weapons, new guns and options for in squad upgrades (ala black shield). Even go back to the 3,5 days and let them have terminators and aspiring sorcerors in their ranks.

 

Probable - we get a black templars sword brethren type unit, so that means a regular veteran squad with special weapon options and an extra rule/keywords on top. So not much different than what we have now

 

Chaos Marines

Wishlist -  we get buyable veteran upgrades like back in the old days + marks buff stats - MoN gives +1T and Khorne +1 A for example. Make chaos marine squads feel like they are vets. It's not like anyone will be spamming these guys anyway.

 

Probable - Marks stay just being keywords, while we might actually see squad or champion upgrades ala black templar relics. TBH it would be sad to see single model upgrades...

 

 

General thoughs/guesses:

 

I would like to see cultists going to trash tier units, not in a sense of worthiness but in a sense of stats. They should be untrained regular humans, so even worse than PDF. They should go down the route of conscripts so super cheap, no ob sec and really no martial prowess. Then we go up a tier to renegade guard - regular guardsman stats and equipment but without orders. Let them take marks of chaos if they actually do something. These guys would still be cheap but better equipped, have ob sec and could be more usefull, especially with strats and buffs. Then we get to mutant rabble - cheap but tough and strong at the same time. These guys would be like Deldar wracks, while the big mutants would be like grotesques, albeit with lesser defensive capabilities. I'm pretty sure they want to make use of those gellerpox infected models and use them as a base for this unit.

 

I really like the idea of CSM being a horde army - lot's of human and mutant scum backed up by really elite marine and daemon engine units. The most important change would be to buff regular space marines to a level that they will actually be worth taking, especially if we are to get all these cheap troops options. 

 

I'd love to see that. On one hand, the CSM player's default position is an expectation that our army will be rubbish...but they've been doing really well with the codexes that they've been publishing lately. Flavourful but also powerful. My only hope is that we get something similar to suped-up chapter tactics that the SM chapter's get. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

Added this bad boy to the first post, along with the final rumour engine. Not long now, brothers!

[Marshal Loss]

Eldritch Omens.

 

 

[El_Dicko]

I am really looking forward to seeing what options the chosen kit has, but already looking for someone in my gaming group to split this with! Bring on the next wave of glorious traitor scum!

[undivided_apostle]

It's got a chain axe!

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm really liking the Chosen. I think they made them look just enough up from the standard CSM, with just a little bit more detail and mutation to them. I was kind of hoping they would do more MK III/MK IV for their armor to look more like they're from the Heresy, but that's just not where they want to take the CSM range, so I understand why they didn't.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm really liking the Chosen. I think they made them look just enough up from the standard CSM, with just a little bit more detail and mutation to them. I was kind of hoping they would do more MK III/MK IV for their armor to look more like they're from the Heresy, but that's just not where they want to take the CSM range, so I understand why they didn't.

Which is why I personally am not a fan of the current crop of new CSM kits, no unified armoured mk's. I like certain individual sculpts/parts not the entire kits. In this case, lighting claw chosen guy. Here is hoping EC is based on mk IV and WE on mk V.

[Irate Khornate]

I'm not a big fan of these sculpts. I don't see anything other than a little bit more ornate armor that differentiates them from standard chaos space marines. Funny enough making a hard kit to paint even harder.

 

Hopefully they are around havoc size, otherwise I really don't see the point other than conversion fodder.

 

As for the Warpsmith, the pose, armor, it's just a reskin of a Primaris tech marine.

 

I'm glad that we're finally getting these models, however I feel like they could have been better executed.

 

And that's not to say anyone is wrong for liking them. I can see why someone would enjoy them, just not me at this point in time.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Irate Khornate I completely agree. Glad chaos got some models but wasn't too impressed, specially not with the warpsmith.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I'm really liking the Chosen. I think they made them look just enough up from the standard CSM, with just a little bit more detail and mutation to them. I was kind of hoping they would do more MK III/MK IV for their armor to look more like they're from the Heresy, but that's just not where they want to take the CSM range, so I understand why they didn't.

Which is why I personally am not a fan of the current crop of new CSM kits, no unified armoured mk's. I like certain individual sculpts/parts not the entire kits. In this case, lighting claw chosen guy. Here is hoping EC is based on mk IV and WE on mk V.

 

I think that's something we just have to live with while the models need to accommodate Renegades. I don't quite see a way around that unless they make bespoke models for both the traitor legions and renegades.

 

That's why I preferred they leaned more into MK III/IV, but I understand why they didn't.

Edited December 26, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion