GK vs Black Templars ... advice needed

[Helias_Tancred]

So against Black Templars, the best brotherhood to use is Wardmakers for the undeniable psychic abilities from the Warlord on an 8+?

 

I'm completely new to GK so also looking for any additional advice or tips against playing these very annoying marines ;)

 

Thanks.

[The Woodsman]

Wardmakers are definitely one of the better Brotherhoods, regardless of the faction you're up against. The ability to auto-cast on 8s on your Warlord makes for some really strong plays, you'll definitely want it on someone who can cast multiple powers (Librarian or Voldus).

 

Marines in general rely on auras for efficiency (re-rolls, Apothecary, Ancient), so turning them off say on a big unit of Bladeguard, Hellblasters or Vanguard Vets could be clutch. The Stratagem is really situational, but could have some key uses.

 

That being said, Black Templars do like to smash things in combat, so anything that makes you better in their preferred phase means that they get punished doing the thing they want to be doing most - in other words it's costing them for playing them to their strengths, which is good for you. Rapiers could give you the extra attacks and good potential for MWs on Convergence to really hurt them.

 

That being said, I think the potential 5+++ and 9" aura trait from Preservers is often overlooked. A block (or 2) of Terminators that can get to 1+/4++/5+++ is no joke, especially if it is backed up by Dreadknights hanging in out in a 9" Undying Anvil bubble, or you could add 3" to the Apothecary's aura for really good coverage on the FnP.

 

Swordbearers can be good against anything, but your list does need to be built to getting the most out of it aka lots of vehicles (euhm Dreadknights).

 

The choice is yours my friend, but Brotherhoods aside I think success with Grey Knights is going to be about careful positioning and play and the correct choice of what and when to commit your ressources.

Edited August 30, 2021 by The Woodsman

[Helias_Tancred]

Thanks! The match up is tomorrow. My first game with my Grey Knights. Looking forward to it, and yes I'm going with Wardmakers. 

 

I'll report back.

[Corvus Fortis]

I'd go with rapiers. 8+ is not that reliable at all and it is only for single character. 5+++ against MWs block quite a bit of psychic damage anyway and our buffs have too high WC cost to rely on them anyway. 

 

BTs usually want to get close on you and that exactly what you want your opponent to do. Rapiers will allow you to strike as hard as possbile and interceptor's superior mobility well allow you to chose engagements. 

[The Woodsman]

Little note on Rapiers after the FAQ. Not going to be as powerful as it was initially... actually I think the MW cap really curbs their power. Still a solid Brotherhood but I don't know that it'll stay the "top" competitive pick. I think Wardmakers and Prescients are the winners now, both have strong control/denial options and good utility. I really think the 8+ auto-cast, especially when combining +1s to cast from a Bro-Cap and Chaplain, can really set up some combos. I wouldn't put it on a damage dealer, but on say Voldus you can pretty much guarantee getting Gate/Amplification/Sanctuary off if you're relying on them. Swordbearers is definitely hot if you're building vehicle- (ok DK) heavy.

 

Looking forward to reading your report Brother Tancred!

[Helias_Tancred]

Its a modest 1k Incursion match but it will be fun!

[Icosiel]

1000 point matches are a ton of fun.

[Corvus Fortis]

Not going to be as powerful as it was initially... actually I think the MW cap really curbs their power. 

 

 

Symphonic strike gives 1 additional attack for each model in unit. It is 10 additional attacks on a 10 man unit. 10 additional attacks = 2 more basic strike marines + justicar. Add to that additional hits on 6 for just 1 cp and words of power still not being limited to 6 mortal wounds in convergence. Heck, you don't even need convergence to decimate anything, but primarchs when fully buffed. The are not going anywhere from competitive scene.

[Helias_Tancred]

Summary: Not a good outing for the sons of Titan.

 

Played my first game with my Grey Knights, 1k Incursion game. I brought:

 

Draigo

Libararian

5 man Paladin squad

Two five man Strike Squads

One 10 man Interceptor squad

 

My opponent plays Black Templars and he has this very fine tuned 1k list (all primaris): Chaplain, Apothecary, 5 man Eradicator squad, 5 man Blade Guard squad, Redemptor dreadnought, and two 5 man assault intercessor squads.

 

Started off my Interceptors went up the board and captured a mid board objective. My smites targeted the two assault intercessor squads he had running out front of the rest of his force. One strike squad and the librarian went up the middle on the right to grab an objective, the other went short up the middle to take the objective at the edge of my deployment zone. The Interceptor squad charged and killed the remaining assault intercessor squad, my smites killed the other. I had placed Draigo and the Paladins in reserve, which I later came to regret. 

 

His shooting and his blade guard and redemptor charging, wiped the Interceptor squad.

 

My smites picked at his blade guard squad now coming up the middle and taking the objective my Interceptors briefly held. Librarian and strike squad held right middle objective. Draigo and paladins teleported in 9" from the Bladeguard. Draigo and the Paladins rolled horrible for shooting and just removed one wounded Bladeguard. They both blew their charge rolls, even after a re-roll. I had previously blown the warp shift ability to go to the charge boosting tide :( fyi. .... then his turn.

 

His eradicators removed three paladins even when I had  Truesilver on them AND zone of warding on them lol. Redemptor successfully charged paladins and Draigo. It killed the remaining paladins. Bladeguard moved in.

 

Next round my strike squad and librarian moved up to help Draigo. They blew their rolls hard both in shooting and melee attacks. Draigo blew his hit rolls only hitting the Redemptor twice. Normally he would have killed it, I had a +1 nemesis damage going on the Titansword for a nice 4 dmg which was 3 vs the Redemptor.

 

His turn, his Bladeguard deleted my strike squad, his redemptor killed my librarian ..... so it was Draigo vs a one bracketed Redemptor and by this time his apothecary had brought his Bladeguard squad back to full strength. I had one strike squad sitting on the objective on the edge of my deployment zone and I threw in the towel. 

 

Mistakes I made. Placing the paladin squad and draigo in reserve for a 1k game. Never again. Dice rolls! At the start of the game my dice rolls were amazing. Then they fell off a cliff. I couldn't make needed casting rolls, and my poor paladins were sent to their death by dice that couldn't hit ANY 4+ save.

 

Tough first match. 

 

Another thing is my opponent. He plays that list every game. He has had many games to really fine tune it. At first my Blood Angels would either give him a close game or win? As time went on that changed. I've got 14k of Blood Angels so I can literally come up with an endless different lists for it, I just was rather relaxed about it- I could do better I think, my Grey Knights I'm at just over 4k but they still have a handful of options ... At this point I'll list my Grey Knight collection so you know what I'm working with:

 

Draigo

2 Librarians

Crowe

Stern

Voldus

Brotherhood Champion

Techmarine

Chaplain

Apothecary

Brotherhood/Paladin Ancient

 

6 man paladin squad

3 five man strike squads

2 six man Terminator squads (2 terminators with warding staves I consider swap outs if im playing a heavy shooting opponent)

10 interceptors

5 man purgation squad

5 man purifier squad

 

Razorback with option for assault cannons, twin heavy flamers, or twin lascannons.

Land Raider Crusader

Stormraven

Venerable Dreadnought

3 Nemesis Dreadknights

[librisrouge]

He is taking a list that would be a hard matchup for GKs.

 

Bladeguard are the best unit for BTs and better than anything we can field in melee. Our units can deal with them at range or with psychic abilities but they'll struggle to do so in a single turn and that damnable apothecary means you kinda have to do it in one go. That will probably require using all of the phases (psychic, shooting, and melee) in one turn and you saw how that works out.

 

Redemptor dreadnoughts might be the best thing in the SM codex and being BT makes them especially hard on us. -1 damage does a lot of work to neuter our force weapons. 5+ FNP means that MWs are not nearly as reliable to take them as we'd like. They have enough firepower and attacks that you can't count on fighting them in melee reliably. The only thing I've used so far that did OK on them was NDKs with hammers. Re-roll to wound (on the basic ones) really helps and GMNDKs are accurate enough that the hammer penalty doesn't matter too much. 

 

I think that the way GKs can help against BT lists like this is in our shooting. Between strats, tides, and all of that jazz, a purifier or purgation squad with psycannons can dish out some severe heat that both redemptors and bladeguard will not like, from far enough away that they won't just counter charge you.

[Helias_Tancred]

I have a feeling that when the Black Templar supplement comes out they will be even better against us.

[Skywrath]

I have a feeling that when the Black Templar supplement comes out they will be even better against us.

 

I'd count on it tbh. 

[Corvus Fortis]

You may try to bring gmndk + 2 dreadknights to try and deal with eradicators at range. You can try to go wardmakers and give gmndk their trait so. Then shunt it and 3-dice empiric amplification on eradicators, than make additional cast to gate him away from the charge range. If you roll 8+, it cannot be denied with 4+ deny strat. It will cost quite a bit of CP, but now you will be able to take eradicatorns out, and they are main threat to your ndks at range. When eradicators are dead, engage carefully in close combat. You have to strike first and cleand bladeguard. Probably deal with intercessors from range or send interceptors after them. 

[Medjugorje]

So against Black Templars, the best brotherhood to use is Wardmakers for the undeniable psychic abilities from the Warlord on an 8+?

 

I'm completely new to GK so also looking for any additional advice or tips against playing these very annoying marines

 

Thanks.

that strataem we have is not a deny. IT clearly stands that after any deny attempt you can use this stratagem. 

But all in all I dont think BT are THAT good against GK. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Medjugorje

[angrom]

Well if you want to see a SM chapter well released and well crafted (not like grey knights) look at the black templar release :)

[Skywrath]

Well if you want to see a SM chapter well released and well crafted (not like grey knights) look at the black templar release

 

Or Dark Angels.

[Prot]

Whatever happened hear? Did you play against the new BT supplement?

 

I have used it myself, and I'll be frank with you; I think the Sisters are still a more brutal match up. The reason I say this is the 5+ denials are disgusting. You pretty much can't count on anything unless you 'warden' through a tiny handful of spells. The rest is a total crap shoot. Also Sisters don't really care too much about the mortal wounding, and they play shoot/assault as well as anyone with incredible aura support from HQ's that are extremely hard to kill.

 

The BT are good, don't get me wrong, but that one Vow is so good for the 5++ and min-transhuman I honestly don't think I'd take the anti psyker vow even against GK.