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#3076
DarkChaplain

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Yeah, we got Sota-Nul as a stand-in new addition by French instead of getting Kelbor Hal actually involved in ongoing events as a character. Heck, she's basically leading the DarkMech during the Siege, while Kelbor Hal might as well not exist.

 

Mars is such a huge white spot on the map, it's just silly. We never really went back after Mechanicum, outside of the Sanders novella and shorts. It doesn't help that Cybernetica in particular was just complete videogamey tosh that wasn't really about Mars in the first place.

The Red Planet is right next to Terra in the Sol System. We've seen the Sol System and its space-geography in numerous stories. But Mars? Mars has always remained isolated and unspoken of, despite being the operational headquarters of the Dark Mechanicum, which is apparently able to have high-ranking operators flying in and out at leisure anyway.

 

This upsets me almost as much as it does the Mechanicum-in-exile on Terra. It's like BL cared even less about Mars than Dorn did.... and Dorn had proper reasons for not leading a reconquest force over there while prepping for the inevitable Siege. BL didn't.


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#3077
Ubiquitous1984

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Yeah, we got Sota-Nul as a stand-in new addition by French instead of getting Kelbor Hal actually involved in ongoing events as a character. Heck, she's basically leading the DarkMech during the Siege, while Kelbor Hal might as well not exist.

 

Mars is such a huge white spot on the map, it's just silly. We never really went back after Mechanicum, outside of the Sanders novella and shorts. It doesn't help that Cybernetica in particular was just complete videogamey tosh that wasn't really about Mars in the first place.

The Red Planet is right next to Terra in the Sol System. We've seen the Sol System and its space-geography in numerous stories. But Mars? Mars has always remained isolated and unspoken of, despite being the operational headquarters of the Dark Mechanicum, which is apparently able to have high-ranking operators flying in and out at leisure anyway.

 

This upsets me almost as much as it does the Mechanicum-in-exile on Terra. It's like BL cared even less about Mars than Dorn did.... and Dorn had proper reasons for not leading a reconquest force over there while prepping for the inevitable Siege. BL didn't.

I fully expected a whole Siege novella dedicated to Mars, but at this late stage it now seems like they are just going to ignore it.

 

And same with Titan which I have found really odd.


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#3078
Petitioner's City

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Perhaps mars shouldn't have fallen so soon in the fw timeline - when was the seven-year timeline first presented? It felt like it came with the black books rather than the earlier heresy series.
Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#3079
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Perhaps mars shouldn't have fallen so soon in the fw timeline - when was the seven-year timeline first presented? It felt like it came with the black books rather than the earlier heresy series.

 

Mechanicum came out real early; 2008 compared to Betrayal in late 2012. Deliverance Lost iirc references it as well, and possibly The Lightning Tower. Point is, Black Library was fully responsible for that one.


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#3080
Noserenda

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Yeah Mars really needed at least one more Novel, i think its ended up as another casualty of the meandering middle of the series followed by a rush to the finish line, few active threads lead there so it was easy to ignore :( 



#3081
Petitioner's City

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Perhaps mars shouldn't have fallen so soon in the fw timeline - when was the seven-year timeline first presented? It felt like it came with the black books rather than the earlier heresy series.

Mechanicum came out real early; 2008 compared to Betrayal in late 2012. Deliverance Lost iirc references it as well, and possibly The Lightning Tower. Point is, Black Library was fully responsible for that one.
That's not what I mean; the heresy wasn't originally 7 years in length, I don't think. It was isstvan then a quick rush to terra, so a somehow potent yet contained mars in the solar system wasn't an issue if the heresy was a year or two. But somehow mars is potent, yet contained within a solar system that seems mostly loyal, from 006-014.m31.

Was the extended "seven-year" (actually nine year) timeline FW's introduction (seen in print in the list of notable events in the age of darkness in bk 4 or 6, and the graphs they showed at weekenders before that publication?) or was it part of Visions of Heresy predating the BL series? Basically was the long length Alan Merritt or Alan Bligh? :D

heresy-timeline-2016.jpg

Edited by Petitioner's City, 13 October 2021 - 04:27 AM.

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Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#3082
nagashnee

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Mechanicum needed a follow up, it needed a book on the dark/true mech, this is quite literally the birth of the nation and they got less then nothing. Instead we went straight from normal 30k tech priest - full on 40k chaos dark mech.  And its such a shame cause its such a juicy bone to pick on.

 

Plus others have said Kelbor Who? Never heard of the bloke biggrin.png .

 

But hope remains, a FW black book on mars has the potential to not only be glorious, but the 100 page lore dump on the Mechanicum ( both sides) that we need.


Edited by nagashnee, 13 October 2021 - 05:33 AM.

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#3083
DukeLeto69

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Will need to dig out my Visions of Heresy (both versions) but I am pretty certain the Horus Heresy was always several years long!

There have always been bonkers and illogical issues with the heresy. Contradictions in the timeline (that BL and FW tried to iron out or explain). But yeah Mars still being “hostile” inside the most highly militarised system in the galaxy just never made sense. Contained or otherwise.
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#3084
nagashnee

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But yeah Mars still being “hostile” inside the most highly militarised system in the galaxy just never made sense. Contained or otherwise.

 

See this is one of the few things i think they handled well, things like the binary succesion try to show how complex a issue a traitor mars is for the Imperium.  In the early Heresy you have to consider Mechanicum opinion, you are a minor forge world in one of the segmentums, news reaches you about a brewing civil war in the imperium, no issues you say 'Its a Imperial matter'. Oh wait The Fabricator General of Mars just declared for Horus, well if MARS says so, oh wait fighting happened on mars? The Fabricator Locum declared for the Emperor. But WAIT a sec you say, dint the Fabricator General who declared for Horus also delcare the Emperor the Omnishiah/prophet/treaty of Olympus? But wait again the Fabricator general of Mars may be the head honcho there but what does YOUR fabricator general say about this?

 

Now imagine during all this you get news the Imperium is bombing Mars, not fighting a faction or helping one side, but actually bombing the holiest place in the galaxy. Going to swing a few votes isnt it? But my magos you say why bomb? Why not invade mars? Answer for that is simple, casualties, the Imperium lost the chance for a quick easy win during the martian civil war, once the dark mech dug in and took control you are looking at siege after siege of heavily defended and armed to the teeth fotress cities manned by fanatics with literally nothing to lose at that point. Not saying anything about the chaos+ stuff that would go down.  And even in this case you are still storming into Mechanicum Holy sites so a propaganda loss all the same. 

 

All this during a time when you are trying to get the forge worlds on YOUR side. The 30k Mechanicum is very much like modern politics, you got the people on each side who will never switch their vote fighting over the undecided middle grounders. 

 

So you blockade mars, put some strategos on the project to come up with some options, only they come up with nothing, and the Dark Mech digs ever deeper, losses outside Sol are mounting and news keeps getting darker, you did not want to go into the meatgrinder yesterday and you deffinetly dont want to go into it today. So you put the decision off a little longer, put more brain power on it, only the answers never change, bomb or grind, but option 1 has gotten EVEN WORSE, as now you have all the loaylist mech on terra working away/helping, and they would try to burn your house down before they let you bomb theirs. And option 2 is also WORSE now as they are ready and waiting, and your forces are needed elsewhere on a daily basis, and during all this a tiny voice keeps screaming out at you the one big contast worry, Horus is coming, so you blocade mars for another year, and hope that the war never comes to Sol, and that one day you CAN land the forces needed on martian soil to burn the cancer out...just not today. 


Edited by nagashnee, 13 October 2021 - 07:47 AM.

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#3085
DukeLeto69

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@nagashnee that is some good analysis there. I like the thinking.

It actually makes me lament the fact that we did need another Mechanicum focused novel to encompass all of that properly (with the right level of gravitas rather than contained in short stories etc).

Not proposing more HH bloat but rather more focus and swapping out a few books!

Edited by DukeLeto69, 13 October 2021 - 08:41 AM.

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#3086
SkimaskMohawk

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@Petitioners city, they decided to push the timeline long before the game though. Mechanicum is book 9, when the original intention was a 10 book series. I definitely don't think they were going for over 60 books at the time, but they were definitely writing quite a few. The 30k game was designed around 5th editions rules, but by the time 5th had come out, we were already on book 8, Battle for the Abyss.

It's hardly forgeworlds fault.

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#3087
Petitioner's City

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@Petitioners city, they decided to push the timeline long before the game though. Mechanicum is book 9, when the original intention was a 10 book series. I definitely don't think they were going for over 60 books at the time, but they were definitely writing quite a few. The 30k game was designed around 5th editions rules, but by the time 5th had come out, we were already on book 8, Battle for the Abyss.

It's hardly forgeworlds fault.

 

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Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#3088
theSpirea

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BL finally decided to speak about the upcoming Tchaikovsky's novel and we get to see the cover. The book has been listed by many retailers for months already.

 

https://www.warhamme...-sci-fi-writer/


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Upcoming BL writers to keep an eye on (mostly based on their entries in Inferno! and other anthologies).

Robert Rath, Michael R. Fletcher, Peter McLean, Nate Crowley, Lora Gray, Jake Ozga, Denny Flowers.


#3089
DarkChaplain

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Day of Ascension will be released in 2022, so there’s not long until we find answers to this and much more besides.

 

Not long indeed... Just a minimum of two months before we can hope for it to be up for preorders, probably more if January goes as slowly as usually with GW.


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#3090
cheywood

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A radical Magos manipulating a Genestealer Cult to bring down the traditionalist leaders of his Forge World? Count me in. The cover’s great too.
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#3091
DukeLeto69

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Day of Ascension looks like a must buy for me!

#3092
Fedor

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The heresy timeline seems to have come together when Goulding was series overseer. It was already a patchwork effort by then, trying to make sense of what had already been laid down, with where they wanted to go next. We got stuff like the official primarch discovery order then too.

 

imo one of the biggest mistakes of the series timeline was having Horus fall so soon after becoming Warmaster. I can understand why they wanted to condense his journey for the original trilogy, but having it be a handful of decades or so from Ullanor to Davin with some appropriate time-skips would have invested things with more gravitas, while providing greater options for storytelling in the long run. As is, there are so many things happening within a very short timespan that were barely given space to breathe. Horus goes so quickly from on top of the world to a worn out, disillusioned leader, open to manipulation.


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#3093
Old-Four-Arms

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Petitioner, on 12 Oct 2021 - 5:44 PM, said:snapback.png

 

That's not what I mean; the heresy wasn't originally 7 years in length, I don't think. It was isstvan then a quick rush to terra, so a somehow potent yet contained mars in the solar system wasn't an issue if the heresy was a year or two. But somehow mars is potent, yet contained within a solar system that seems mostly loyal, from 006-014.m31. 
 

 

The short short version of the Heresy (Slaves to Darkness, 1988) : 

 

Horus falls ill on Davin, gets possessed by a daemon and introduces warrior lodges in the Astartes legions (then called chapters) under his command.

 

Commander of Isstvan III secedes, Horus unleashes a bioweapon, frigate Eisenstein breaks away and gets news of Horus' treachery to the Emperor.

 

Majority of Adeptus Mechanicus declares for Horus, out of all Titan Legions only those on Terra remain loyal.

 

The Imperial Fleet manages to drive rebel ships from the Imperial home system at great cost and retreats to their Luna bases.

 

Counteroffensive on Isstvan V gets planned (180 days)... and fails (only 5 loyal Marines escape).

 

Horus then takes the offensive, bypasses the Imperial Fleet, destroys the Luna bases, reduces the system defences and surrounds the Palace within 30 standard days.

 

On the 55th day of the Siege, the Traitor Legions reach the walls of the Inner Palace.

 

 

I'm sure there were some dates / snippets in the original Space Marine (epic) handbook as well, but I haven't got my copy handy at the moment..


Edited by Old-Four-Arms, 13 October 2021 - 05:31 PM.

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#3094
DukeLeto69

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Petitioner, on 12 Oct 2021 - 5:44 PM, said:snapback.png

That's not what I mean; the heresy wasn't originally 7 years in length, I don't think. It was isstvan then a quick rush to terra, so a somehow potent yet contained mars in the solar system wasn't an issue if the heresy was a year or two. But somehow mars is potent, yet contained within a solar system that seems mostly loyal, from 006-014.m31.


The short short version of the Heresy (Slaves to Darkness, 1988) :

Horus falls ill on Davin, gets possessed by a daemon and introduces warrior lodges in the Astartes legions (then called chapters) under his command.

Commander of Isstvan III secedes, Horus unleashes a bioweapon, frigate Eisenstein breaks away and gets news of Horus' treachery to the Emperor.

Majority of Adeptus Mechanicus declares for Horus, out of all Titan Legions only those on Terra remain loyal.

The Imperial Fleet manages to drive rebel ships from the Imperial home system at great cost and retreats to their Luna bases.

Counteroffensive on Isstvan V gets planned (180 days)... and fails (only 5 loyal Marines escape).

Horus then takes the offensive, bypasses the Imperial Fleet, destroys the Luna bases, reduces the system defences and surrounds the Palace within 30 standard days.

On the 55th day of the Siege, the Traitor Legions reach the walls of the Inner Palace.


I'm sure there were some dates / snippets in the original Space Marine (epic) handbook as well, but I haven't got my copy handy at the moment..
Well based on that, I think they did absolutely the right thing extending the timeline. The galaxy is huge. Warp travel takes time (years even pass in realspace), the great crusade took 200 years. So yeah, a galaxy spanning civil war should indeed take several years.

This ain’t Star Wars sequel trilogy where people can zoom around with impunity. It is a core element of the lore that interstellar travel is very hard, long, arduous and dangerous. That is why I have a problem with the Knights Errant and how they whizz around!

Edited by DukeLeto69, 13 October 2021 - 06:16 PM.

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#3095
fire golem

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If anything, 7 or 9 years is far too short really. WW2 was 6 years and that was just here on Earth.
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#3096
sitnam

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A radical Magos manipulating a Genestealer Cult to bring down the traditionalist leaders of his Forge World? Count me in. The cover’s great too.


The cover is actually fairly similar to the Twice-Dead King series. Wonder if this will be a new style going toward, paticularly for Xenos
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#3097
Kelborn

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The length of the heresy is certainly not an upcoming story as far as I'm aware.

Continue in a different thread, please.

Curious about the announced novel. Never read Tchaikovsky thus far but I was told it's more than great news. So I'm optimistic. :)

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#3098
SkimaskMohawk

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@Petitioners city, they decided to push the timeline long before the game though. Mechanicum is book 9, when the original intention was a 10 book series. I definitely don't think they were going for over 60 books at the time, but they were definitely writing quite a few. The 30k game was designed around 5th editions rules, but by the time 5th had come out, we were already on book 8, Battle for the Abyss.

It's hardly forgeworlds fault.


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#3099
Taliesin

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Day of Ascension is definitely on the to buy list. However the language in the article is typical BL/GW speak, we are told we will see it very soon, and then that it actually releases in 2022, with no date given.

 

However, I am gonna guess it will be January at the latest since otherwise they wouldnt be previewing the book already.


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#3100
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Mike Brooks and Guy Hayley have stated on Twitter that they’ve both been doing the LE signing pages in the last few weeks.

Also, beyond excited for Day of Ascension. Tchaikovsky’s last book was almost about the birth of navigators without being about the birth of navigators, his ‘audition’ short is excellent and he’s all-round great at writing…
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