Size of the primarchs - are you a fan?

[USNCenturion]

I have a strictly lore based thought I was interested in hearing others opinions on. It shouldn’t be too controversial or argumentative, and it’s something I haven’t seen discussed in many places. I want to preface by saying I’m not sure if this belongs in the Black Library, Space Marines, or Amicus section; please feel free to move it wherever it might be most appropriate.

 

My thought, as gathered by my topic heading, is what are your opinions of the large sizes of primarchs, and why they were made to be so large to begin with?

 

When I’m reading through a BL novel containing the pre-daemon primarchs, I find myself reading their lines and interactions as if they’re similar size to other marines. I notice I have to catch myself and remember they are twice the size of most people they are interacting with. If I even think of it.

 

I suppose I can get why this was done. When they were created (by GW) decades ago they probably needed to carry a larger than life aura and it was reflected almost too literally. I mean the emperor is supposed to be huge too, how did he hide as a shaman on earth amongst his people before the unification?

 

Now though, it just seems like an awkward “thing” to have around. When I read about Dorn talking to Valdor, Rann, and a human general, it just makes more sense to me if they’re all of similar heights. It seems to just flow better like it’s a scene from Patton or A Bridge Too Far or something. Dorn and marines (if they were sized closer) can still be a bit larger and bulky for sure, but when I’m catching myself remembering “oh yeah, sanguinius is literally almost twice the height of his geneson he’s talking to”, it adds nothing to the story for me other than pulling me out of it a bit. Their warp signature, physical presence, human discomfort around them, etc can all be gotten across without them needing to squeeze onto a tiny stool to converse with another underling.

 

Darth Vader wasn’t 13 feet tall but he had the gravitas and power to make him stand out regardless, while still having similar space as the other characters.

 

I hope I’m explaining my point here effectively, and why its so jarring to me (without writing 10,000 more words), and I’m curious to know what others think about this large but often ignored(?) topic. Maybe it’s not as crazy or distracting for most of you, but I think it could stoke good discussion regardless. Perhaps it’s just a necessary trademark of our grim dark corner we’re all interested in.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, Primarchs aren’t and never wear 13 feet tall. That’s insanity. They wouldn’t be able to go through most doors, hallways, or rooms.

[MadGreek]

Also, their size varies from Chapter to Chapter - I mean Alpharius is about the same size as a large Marine, that is why he can pass as a regular Marine, or they can pass as him (if that ever happened).  In my head, when I a reading the books, they (the Primarchs) are probably  a good two feet taller, maybe a bit more, and bulkier.

[USNCenturion]

Yeah, Primarchs aren’t and never wear 13 feet tall. That’s insanity. They wouldn’t be able to go through most doors, hallways, or rooms.

True, my 13 number up there was closer to hyperbole but was definitely over the mark. I was just trying to compare two powerful entities in a fiction, and how size could describe them in comparison with other ‘normal’ characters.

 

I still think my same thoughts and feelings above apply even with primarchs being between 8-11 feet. At that point though maybe it is just small potatoes. I mean how short do I really want them then?! Lol

[Helias_Tancred]

They always say head and shoulders above a regular Astartes.

 

I'd say they're 10-11 feet tall, maybe a little more with some (Magnus) and a little less (Alpharius) with others.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Totally agree that both the scale of the minis look silly and the supporting fluff just seems poorly considered.

That most Astartes on only come to Primarchs belly buttons on the minis is a bit too much for me, coming to the chest/shoulders would have been better IMHO.

I find it very difficult to suspend disbelief but space magic be magicing.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Interrogator Stobz

[Captain Idaho]

In Horus Rising there is a scene where Sanguinius walks in eating an apple. I mean, really? A human sized apple? Or genetically modified super fruit? It would have to be the size of a melon at least and there's no explanation except it's an apple.

 

I have no qualms about Primarchs being huge. Much of the Imperium's architecture is grandiose and sprawling so there won't be any trouble for most super sized beings walking around.

 

Where size and weight of Marines + becomes an issue is war. Ordinary humanity live in rather smaller scaled locales and when you start trying to navigate buildings etc, wouldn't getting upstairs be hazard for something that weighs the best part of a ton?

 

That's where we suspend our disbelief for the story.

 

:)

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I always envisioned primarchs to be a bit taller than marines, same with the marines being a bit taller than regular humans. With the exception of the primarchs that are specifically mentioned as either being relatively small (Fulgrim and Alpharius / Omegon are mentioned as being smaller and Corvus Corax is also noted to have a slimmer build) or being bigger (Magnus and Ferrus Manus are both mentioned to be on the larger side while the Lion is mentioned as being taller than the "average" primarch), I think it isn't misaligned with the fluff to think of primarchs being a bit over 10 feet tall. That would make them substantially larger, but they wouldn't be unreasonably large. A lot of the primarchs feeling larger than life when they interact with both marines and regular humans can be attributed to just that: they would have a presence that makes them feel larger than they actually are without necessitating everything be giant-scaled.

[LameBeard]

Primarchs > Marines > mortals wasn’t really in the original lore or models. See Leman Russ metal model for example. And the many examples of pre-discovery primarchs fitting in to their human societies in some way, don’t really fit easily with their huge size.

 

So the scale creep does become problematic. In the Black Library books, at one point El Johnson rides a horse. That’s immersion breaking. I’ve seen the model of the Lion, and a model of a horse. He would look comical on a horse. Also the many examples of primarch’s employing stealth, become explained away by “space magic”. Same with Emperor appearing as different sizes at different times.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Primarchs > Marines > mortals wasn’t really in the original lore or models. See Leman Russ metal model for example. And the many examples of pre-discovery primarchs fitting in to their human societies in some way, don’t really fit easily with their huge size.

 

So the scale creep does become problematic. In the Black Library books, at one point El Johnson rides a horse. That’s immersion breaking. I’ve seen the model of the Lion, and a model of a horse. He would look comical on a horse. Also the many examples of primarch’s employing stealth, become explained away by “space magic”. Same with Emperor appearing as different sizes at different times.

 

Mostly agreed, although the horses that the Lion would have rode on were able to carry a human in the type of proto-power armor that the knights of Caliban wore, so they weren't really the size and strength of normal horses. I have always thought of them as being something that basically looks like a horse, but would be something substantially larger and more muscular than what we have today. It isn't unheard of even on Earth, a warhorse / destrier was a different beast from a farm horse already in the Middle Ages, so add on several millenia of STC-enabled breeding programs and I have no problems believing that what you end up with could carry a man in power armor and even have a larger man like the Lion riding it somewhat comfortably.

[Valkyrion]

The scale is probably all wrong from the get go.

We don't have data going far enough back, but human are 11cm taller now on average than they were 200 years ago. 

I'm sure someone better than me can extrapolate that over the next 28,000 years and arrive at the possibility that your average human may be close to 7 feet tall by then, which should really place the astartes at 9 feet and the primarchs at at least 11.

 

I'm sure there is a ceiling that human height can reach, but there are plenty (relatively speaking) of high six footers to low seven footers alive today, so a worldwide average of 7 foot by the time the emperor is reclaiming Terra isn't inconceivable to me.

[Captain Idaho]

Even so, that is the audience having to make the assumptions on behalf of the story teller.

 

Like my example of the apple. Sure, it's probably a genetically modified version of an apple, but is it? How would I really know?

 

It's just a case of a bit of sloppy writing from the authors. Horus Rising was great, but Abnet just forgot about how absurdly small an apply would be to a Primarch.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[LameBeard]

You [brother-Captain Gilead] are right of course. Today’s Shire Horses would easily be large and strong enough, it would be a matter of temperament and training. But this is just another example of the lore having to perform these little wriggles.

 

The whole STC issue is one. STCs are from dark age of technology so make human-sized stuff. But armour, bolters and vehicles then need to be made bigger to fit astartes frames. Unique relics and trophies also awkward. None of it impossible, just generally a smoother ride if the giant scale was toned down a bit.

Edited September 6, 2021 by LameBeard

[Karhedron]

I never had a problem with huge Primarchs. If you go back to the very early lore about them in 2nd edition, it mentions that many were "of strange appearance or titanic proportions".  Couple with the fact that the original Epic Daemon Primarchs were literally the size of small Titans, I always had in my head that the Primarchs were giants. I guess a lot of it depends on when you came into the hobby and what the prevailing fluff was at the time. I am an old-timer and to me, enormous Primarchs seem perfectly normal.

 

As for the Emperor, his appearance seems to be deliberately fluid. He always seems to appear as just tall enough to be imposing but not preposterous, regardless of whoever he is talking to. Magnus is actually commented in the novels to change in size, even during the Great Crusade. I imagine the Emperor does the same, just a lot more subtly. It is questionable whether anyone has ever seen what the Emperor "really" looks like. Solar War mentions him having many faces and aspects. Corax apparently can see the Emperor's glamour and saw a rather plain face underneath. He asked the Emperor if that was his real face but the Emperor evaded the question. It would seem to tie in with the Sisters of Silence who see a similar face when they look at him as they are as unaffected by his glamour as by any other psychic power.

[Charlo]

The Primarch's are mythical creatures. Some if not all are able to change their size at will, or at least the perception of their size. They're enigmas wrapped in mystery with a dollop of misdirection and psychic influence on top :) 

 

Nothing about them is certain! ;)

[Arkhanist]

The scale is probably all wrong from the get go.

We don't have data going far enough back, but human are 11cm taller now on average than they were 200 years ago. 

I'm sure someone better than me can extrapolate that over the next 28,000 years and arrive at the possibility that your average human may be close to 7 feet tall by then, which should really place the astartes at 9 feet and the primarchs at at least 11.

 

I'm sure there is a ceiling that human height can reach, but there are plenty (relatively speaking) of high six footers to low seven footers alive today, so a worldwide average of 7 foot by the time the emperor is reclaiming Terra isn't inconceivable to me.

There's strong evidence that our greater average height now is down to better nutrition (particularly in childhood) and much better treatments for disease, again in childhood. When you study human skeletons, average height has changed up *and* down over history and cultures, so it's not that there's a linear march towards greater height.

 

For example, after the black death in 14th century europe, the 40% survivors had much more room and more food to go round, so height increased into the 15th century. 17th century europe though was a mess, including the 30 years war, so overall health sufered, and an average frenchman's height dropped to 5'4".

 

Terra in the dark ages prior to the Emperor's unification seems like it was a pretty toxic dystopia riven with warlord conflict and general misery, so not great for plentiful crops and quality medical care in childhood. So it could be that average human height was down to 5'6" or worse, making marines 7'6" and primarchs 9' to 10'. So marines would basically be very bulky basketball players, with primarchs a head taller. Which also explains cadians - they don't have comically big heads, they're just really short.

[Xenith]

Primarchs > Marines > mortals wasn’t really in the original lore or models. See Leman Russ metal model for example. 

 

As I recall, the original lore for Leman Russ was that he was a normal human general of the Imperial Armies, and it was only later he got exalted to the rank of Primarch. Likewise, scale creep. All of the rogue trader metals are smaller than modern models. 

 

That said, I see it as: primarch is to marine as marine is to human. Not just taller, as that would look weird, but 30% bulkier. 6ft tall human is an 8ft tall marine to a 10.5foot tall primarch. 

[Domhnall]

Another thing to consider is the square cube law, which means as you increase in size, your weight would increase at a greater rate. 

In simple terms, let's assume we have the average imperial citizen as 6 units tall, x 2 unit wide, x 1 unit deep, we have a weight of 12 units. 

Just scaling that up by the square cube, a primarch at 10 units tall, x 3.5 units wide, x 1.5 units deep, we have a weight of 36 chunky units!

Not quite twice as tall, but 3 times as heavy, not including any extra muscle bulk! and then any armour on top of that, means a primarch of that size is just simply ridiculous, as once on the battlefield, they'll pretty much just sink into any kind of soft earth as their weight is concentrated on two feet, rather than spread out like a tank on it's treads. 

 

Also, I'm ignoring the leg strength problem as well for 'space genetics hand wavium science', because the majority of humans once they reach a certain height (like, really tall), our legs struggle to support our weight without assistance. 

Just look for pictures of our man Robert Wadlow, he was 2.72m (8ft 11in), so we're talking very tall Space Marine territory, but he was 199kg (439lb) at his heaviest, and he was a pretty slim guy. 

 

 

In conclusion, rule of cool nonsense is always greater than real world physics based sensiblity. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Domhnall

[Captain Idaho]

Oddly enough I don't mind the square cube law disbelief more than a Primarch riding a horse like an adult on a Greyhound or an apple like a grape.

[Valkyrion]

Google pictures of Andre The Giant (not sure on forum rules) and you'll see him holding a can of beer like a dolls playset, you'll see him with a normal sized female nurse and you'll see a comparably tiny Arnold Schwarzenegger - so if Andre is a primarch, and Arnie is an astartes and the nurse is a human and the beer is an apple then I don't think the relative size of a primarch to an apple or horse is that outrageous for a science fiction story of genetically engineered super soldiers set 30,000 in the future.

 

The idea of a primarch eating an apple is actually the ridiculous bit, not that the apple would be tiny. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Great example with Andre. He’s 7’4” and towers over everyone. A 13 foot tall Primarch is just inane.

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm not a big fan of giant primarchs. It always used to be implied that Abaddon and Horus were the same size.

 

Primarchs > Marines > mortals wasn’t really in the original lore or models. See Leman Russ metal model for example. And the many examples of pre-discovery primarchs fitting in to their human societies in some way, don’t really fit easily with their huge size.

 

Primarchs weren't clearly anything other than just another Space Marine when that Leman Russ was designed. Original use of the term Primarch just meant any honoured dead chapter hero.

 

 

As I recall, the original lore for Leman Russ was that he was a normal human general of the Imperial Armies, and it was only later he got exalted to the rank of Primarch. Likewise, scale creep. All of the rogue trader metals are smaller than modern models.

 

 

Leman Russ was always the founder of the Space Wolves from the Rogue Trader rulebook which predates the term Primarch. The Rogue Trader book has Leman Russ' relics located in the Reclusiam and the first White Dwarf mention of Primarchs is as dead heroes whose relics are looked after by Chaplains so Leman Russ was never not a Primarch, Primarchs just weren't as special.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Gederas]

I'm not a big fan of giant primarchs. It always used to be implied that Abaddon and Horus were the same size.

They actually are nearly the same size. The new plastic Abaddon is roughly on par with the 30k Horus.

 

Great example with Andre. He

Edited September 6, 2021 by Gederas

[Domhnall]

 

I'm not a big fan of giant primarchs. It always used to be implied that Abaddon and Horus were the same size.

They actually are nearly the same size. The new plastic Abaddon is roughly on par with the 30k Horus.

 

Great example with Andre. He’s 7’4” and towers over everyone. A 13 foot tall Primarch is just inane.

Andre also wasn't a "normal" 7'4", as he had gigantism and Acromegaly which made him even bulkier than normal. He also had a LOT of body fat which made his size even more extreme.

 

We had a discussion about this last year in regards to Marine heights. I posted a bit of a breakdown but here's a refresher:

 

 

You have Yao Ming at 7'6'' (ie: Adeptus Astartes Genericus Heightus), Shaquille O'Neal at 7'1'' (shorter, but still likely around the normal height range for an Astartes) and Kevin Hart at 5'4" (shorter end of average for adult male height).

 

Robert Wadlow (8'11.1" and 439lbs at the time of his death at 22, tallest recorded human ever) to an average height human male:

 

 

Or a picture of him with his father, who was 5'11", taken when a few months before Robert Wadlow's death:

 

Or the tallest confirmed "true giant" (not due to a pathological condition like Robert Wadlow or Adnre the Giant, just really frigging tall) Angus MacAskill at 7 ft 9 in (2.36 m) (pictured here next to a 6'5" man)

 

 

 

 

It's easy to see how even a standard space marine would make a human stop in awe when they are in their prescence, not just for their imposing height but the fact that a space marine would be heavier built than both Shaq and Yao Ming, and encased in hunky chunky armour. Pretty awe inspiring, or pant wettingly scary depending on if you are an obedient citizen of the Imperium, or a filthy disgusting heretic. 

 

I like the idea that the Primarch are bigger than the marines, but not so much that it becomes a bit silly. It's easy to believe that the stories we read about the primarchs is legend told through the generations, each telling they are bigger, faster, stronger, or another adjective of choice. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Domhnall

[Cactus]

Given how prevalent the father-son relationship is across the legions I think it's entirely fitting that the astartes had to literally look up to their primarchs.

 

Personally I'm happy with an ork approach to sizing. Astartes are big, primarchs are bigger. Don't sweat the details.

 

The examples above seem to show that what sounds like a moderate difference on the page would be much more significant in reality. Primarchs don't need to be even a head taller than the astartes, especially when you consider how large their respective heads would be!