Size of the primarchs - are you a fan?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

it’s kind of a silly exercise - we have the model for Guilliman so it’s easy enough to determine their height.

[Marshal Rohr]

it’s kind of a silly exercise - we have the model for Guilliman so it’s easy enough to determine their height.

Yeh, good point. Swords are actually an inch flat on the sharp side of a blade, bullets for autoguns are 40mm, and cloth is several inches thick for day wear.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[USNCenturion]

Some people aren’t too bothered by the scale differences. Check. Thanks for the input guys. Edited September 7, 2021 by EnsignJoker

[D3L]

*points to front cover of Unremembered Empire* (amongst others)

Sanguinius' manservants

The Primarchs are literally pan-pantheonic demigods

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly and if you’ve ever played 30k it is part of the setting.

[USNCenturion]

Yeah, I get that. I’m trying to drive discussion as to why that is and whether people like it in the narrative or not, or if they find it distracting in some way, as I do when I notice it.

 

I know primarchs are big. When I’m reading stories about them I find myself naturally thinking they are of similar heights to everyone else in the scene, and when my attention is drawn to the contrary by the author, I find it jarring.

 

Sanguinius and Guilliman look absolutely ridiculous to me in the art for Unremembered Empire.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The main thing about Primarchs in 40K is they tend to unbalance the game.

[Valkyrion]

 

Sanguinius and Guilliman look absolutely ridiculous to me in the art for Unremembered Empire.

 

it's Guillimans oversized hands power fists that ruin it - the artwork is supposed to be like a boxing ref raising the hand of a reluctant champion, but it comes off as guilliman as a giant baby wanting to picked up and cuddled like a teddy bear

[Domhnall]

Yeah, I get that. I’m trying to drive discussion as to why that is and whether people like it in the narrative or not, or if they find it distracting in some way, as I do when I notice it.

 

I know primarchs are big. When I’m reading stories about them I find myself naturally thinking they are of similar heights to everyone else in the scene, and when my attention is drawn to the contrary by the author, I find it jarring.

 

Sanguinius and Guilliman look absolutely ridiculous to me in the art for Unremembered Empire.

 

 

I've got a question, and this is probably more for anybody that finds their size off putting. 

 

Do you know 'why' the size of them bothers you? Or is it just because it 'feels' wrong to you? 

 

For me, their size in the fluff just feels off, more from a practical perspective of just getting about their daily business, however I can get on board with it, because it's not the craziest thing going on in 40k. That's why I usually read them as not as tall as they are until I'm reminded of such. 

 

However, my feeling is that the Primarch sizes feel 'off' because someone of that size is not one we've encountered in our collective experience before, if you understand me. 

 

Even seeing super tall people like Yao Ming are difficult to comprehend. Watching a game of Basketball looks like just a bunch of normal sized guys playing because they are all tall. It's not until you see someone of average height next to them that their size becomes apparent and your brains has to adjust and compensate. 

 

That's a thing... I'm primarch sized compared to my 6 year old son... 

[Karhedron]

I don't have a problem with the scale of Primarchs but I do agree that the Unremembered Empire artwork seems to show the concept in the worst way possible.

By contrast, the artwork for Solar War is brilliant at capturing the scale of the various transhuman warriors against the mortals beside them. Dorn is actually supposed to be one of the slightly shorter Primarchs which makes it easier but if you scan across the artwork, it is clear that the human soldiers only come up to his navel. Even the Custodes only just reach the bottoms of his shoulder pauldrons.

[phandaal]

In Horus Rising there is a scene where Sanguinius walks in eating an apple. I mean, really? A human sized apple? Or genetically modified super fruit? It would have to be the size of a melon at least and there's no explanation except it's an apple.

 

I have no qualms about Primarchs being huge. Much of the Imperium's architecture is grandiose and sprawling so there won't be any trouble for most super sized beings walking around.

 

Where size and weight of Marines + becomes an issue is war. Ordinary humanity live in rather smaller scaled locales and when you start trying to navigate buildings etc, wouldn't getting upstairs be hazard for something that weighs the best part of a ton?

 

That's where we suspend our disbelief for the story.

 

:)

Could be worse. Could have Space Marines with lasguns or kids shooting down Eldar grav tanks with rocks.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Yeah, I get that. I’m trying to drive discussion as to why that is and whether people like it in the narrative or not, or if they find it distracting in some way, as I do when I notice it.

 

I know primarchs are big. When I’m reading stories about them I find myself naturally thinking they are of similar heights to everyone else in the scene, and when my attention is drawn to the contrary by the author, I find it jarring.

 

Sanguinius and Guilliman look absolutely ridiculous to me in the art for Unremembered Empire.

I've got a question, and this is probably more for anybody that finds their size off putting.

 

Do you know 'why' the size of them bothers you? Or is it just because it 'feels' wrong to you?

 

For me, their size in the fluff just feels off, more from a practical perspective of just getting about their daily business, however I can get on board with it, because it's not the craziest thing going on in 40k. That's why I usually read them as not as tall as they are until I'm reminded of such.

 

However, my feeling is that the Primarch sizes feel 'off' because someone of that size is not one we've encountered in our collective experience before, if you understand me.

 

Even seeing super tall people like Yao Ming are difficult to comprehend. Watching a game of Basketball looks like just a bunch of normal sized guys playing because they are all tall. It's not until you see someone of average height next to them that their size becomes apparent and your brains has to adjust and compensate.

 

That's a thing... I'm primarch sized compared to my 6 year old son...

Someone mentioned a Primarch eating an apple earlier. They’d hold it in a thumb and forefinger. If they really are 13 feet tall then doing anything normal just throws you right out of the page and into your head as you wonder how Guilliman is turning pages in a book with fingers like baguettes. The sweet spot is always going to be 7ish feet for marines and 8ish for Custodes and Primarchs. Anything beyond that they’d just have to live outside all the time or restrict themselves to parts of a ship with vaulted ceilings. Any boarding action against their flagship would be as simple as just never going upstairs and staying in service corridors.

 

Edit: How would Kurze have been able to terrify a population when they could just, I don’t know, go inside a building and he’d be stuck outside or have to pursue them on all fours and never make it past the lobby.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Beta galactosidase]

 

 

 

Yeah, I get that. I’m trying to drive discussion as to why that is and whether people like it in the narrative or not, or if they find it distracting in some way, as I do when I notice it.

 

 

I've got a question, and this is probably more for anybody that finds their size off putting.

 

Do you know 'why' the size of them bothers you? Or is it just because it 'feels' wrong to you?

Edit: How would Kurze have been able to terrify a population when they could just, I don’t know, go inside a building and he’d be stuck outside or have to pursue them on all fours and never make it past the lobby.

Yes. It’s very blatant. GW sells models, and if they made primarchs normal size then primarchs would be just another PA character. We’ve had dozens of Kantors, Shrikes, Azraels over the years and in order to make the models obviously distinct, they’re big. When I see giant primarchs in an illustration like a boom cover, what I see is a piece of plastic that retails for $51 GW or $108 forge world.

 

They’re big so they’ll be more special of a model to buy. If 40k was anything other than 28mm scale models they wouldn’t be depicted so huge.

 

IMO the Mike McVey diorama is 100% canon.

 

Mate, that's not old lore. Thar's current, active lore. Space Marines are canonically, ON AVERAGE, [redacted] in Power Armour.

I copied this from the thread you linked. I’ve seen exactly one hard number in a codex, updated in 2019, and it’s not what you gave. So quote it, please. What’s the sentence that makes that canonical? I’ve just never seen this number you gave and it’s so strange that I have never heard of it or seen it but have seen a different one.

[mertbl]

I've never been bothered by their size in the lore. I guess it has always bothered me trying to figure out how Alpharius could hide as a generic legionaire and vice versa. Other than that just remember you are reading history books, retold and written down for millennia.

[Captain Idaho]

The novels and indeed models shows us that the sizes of Primarchs is not exaggerated though as if history hyperbole.

[Marshal Rohr]

The novels could show the Primarchs Care Bear Blasting apart demons with rainbow beams and Captain Planet arriving to help them and it still isn’t as immersion breaking as Sanguinius holding an apple the way a normal person holds a truffle.

 

 

Edit: Another thing that’s 13 feet tall? Elephants. Anybody ever seen an elephant? They’re big bois. This reminds me of when they took GRRM to the quarry in Iceland where the shot the wall and he asked how deep the pit was and they told him 400 feet (half the size of his wall) and he said he made the wall too high.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Lord Blackwood]

I dunno if I have an issue with the way primarchs are depicted , though I do wish that they would discuss it a bit more in books.  It does make it a lot more believable that they can walk up and vibe check blood thirsters tho , take apart contemptors like childrens toys , hold up the feet of war hound titans,  They are unimaginably large bros doin unimaginably large things. They would be terrifying and inhuman to behold up close. 

And now I cant get out of my head the image of Sanguinius with a bucket of apples enjoying them like hes got a bunch of grapes.  

[Closet Skeleton]

When people talk about 'how do they walk through doors' they seem to be forgetting that 40k doors have never been depicted as reasonably sized. Conrad Curze is about the only Primarch who ever had to care about not fitting inside a sleeping cell in a Hive Slum, the corridoors in most Imperial ships are nothing like the tight corridors on a real world submarine.

 

The novels and indeed models shows us that the sizes of Primarchs is not exaggerated though as if history hyperbole.

 

Models aren't perfectly scaled at all. Vehicles are about 80% the scale of the infantry and guardsmen aren't scaled correctly to old marines in the slightest.

 

The size of Guiliman's model compared to a regular marine reflects than Guiliman is huge but not the exact size difference.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Marshal Rohr]

When people talk about 'how do they walk through doors' they seem to be forgetting that 40k doors have never been depicted as reasonably sized. Conrad Curze is about the only Primarch who ever had to care about not fitting inside a sleeping cell in a Hive Slum, the corridoors in most Imperial ships are nothing like the tight corridors on a real world submarine.

 

 

The novels and indeed models shows us that the sizes of Primarchs is not exaggerated though as if history hyperbole.

Models aren't perfectly scaled at all. Vehicles are about 80% the scale of the infantry and guardsmen aren't scaled correctly to old marines in the slightest.

 

The size of Guiliman's model compared to a regular marine reflects than Guiliman is huge but not the exact size difference.

Then why is every depiction of an underhivers cell cramped and small? That’s a lot of square footage for a regular person just so Primarchs can be 13 feet tall. Edited September 9, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Orange Knight]

I feel that the tabletop should never be used to try to gauge the size of things.

 

Historically the models have leaned heavily toward the "heroic" scale, with exaggerated features and incorrect proportions. The vehicles are also far too small, with transports such as Rhinos in particular looking comically under-sized when one considers they should transport 10 Astartes in full armour. Newer kits are getting better in this regard, and I was even impressed when GW limited the Impulsor to a 6 man capacity, because in practicality it does look small. Primaris, the new Sisters line and the new Kriegs guard are far better than the models they are succeeding.

 

The Guilliman model, as an example, is quite large when compared to a Marine, but it should be noted that he is also a gaming piece on a tabletop that is designed to stand out. I wouldn't use his model to try and guess at the height. I often see people say "They lose immersion because a heroic character in bright yellow armour can't be targeted because he's standing behind some scruffy guardsmen." The fact is that the game relies on the abstract. The captain wouldn't stand on a rock, waving a sword in the air like an aircraft marshall for the duration of a battle. The model kit is simply designed to stand out on the table-top for the players observing, and in the abstract we can imagine that the Captain is actually out of sight.

 

The novels do describe the Primarchs as being very tall, pantheonic demi-gods. Whist there is no question that they are large, it can be easily explained that their size is exaggerated in the minds of observers due their larger-than-life charismatic presence.

 

The biggest immersion breaker for me is that if the Primarchs really are walking giants, if we take their descriptions at the most literal sense, then the practicality of their size will become an issue. The general human domain of the Imperium will be designed with human proportions in mind. I personally find it silly if a mission had to be called off because the famed Primarch who leads a critical assault can't fit down a side street or through several cramped buildings.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Orange Knight

[LameBeard]

I like the bit in the story where Angron is musing if he could take on a contemptor, he’s relishing the thought. We know he’s a killing machine against any mortal foe, but this looks like a match-up. This is a better scale than “taking it apart like a child’s toy”, which might be what happens on the tabletop?

[Captain Idaho]

Models aren't perfectly scaled at all. Vehicles are about 80% the scale of the infantry and guardsmen aren't scaled correctly to old marines in the slightest.

 

The size of Guiliman's model compared to a regular marine reflects than Guiliman is huge but not the exact size difference.

No the models don't, but them plus the novels back up the claim of Primarch immense size depicted in other sources that are often akin to historic accounts that could be inaccurate.

 

Another way of looking at it is the size of Primarchs has never been said to be anything other than larger than a Marine by several feet (with a single, notable exception) so we have a case of all the evidence we're given points one way with no evidence pointing another.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Spinsanity]

We're talking a setting here where everything is exagerated. In uh, one of the Eisenhorn books, when they attend an Imperial celebration, the parade drives down a kilometerS-wide boulevard; even if that meant 2km, we're looking at over 500 current US highway lanes, 250 each way... Ships are also similarly massive whenever they are depicted, we're not talking cramped tunnels and crawlspaces, but rather skyscraper-high galleries and doorways the size of castle gates.

 

In the end, it's not the primarchs who are large, it's the normal humans who are small...

[Lord Blackwood]

I like the bit in the story where Angron is musing if he could take on a contemptor, he’s relishing the thought. We know he’s a killing machine against any mortal foe, but this looks like a match-up. This is a better scale than “taking it apart like a child’s toy”, which might be what happens on the tabletop?

It happens in scars where Russ downs a contemptor with relative ease. Then in the novella Wolf King Bjorn uses the language of taking it apart like a child's toy.

 

As for ships being huge I also recall the white scars being able to race jet bikes in the lower areas of thier ships.

[LameBeard]

Maybe I misremembered the ADB. Maybe Angron never doubted he’d win, maybe he was just musing about what it would be like. But I still like to think that in his youth, in those gladiator pits, they were actually genuine fights, not ridiculous mismatches. How could a mortal hope to harm him? Many-to-one? Cybernetic enhancement? Vat-born?

 

I think the size of the ships (which are vast) makes me think they were created mostly before the crusade, and hence the scale (doorways etc) would mostly be human.

 

I just measured my door-way and ceiling in the room I was in. Roughly 6’6” to the doorway and another 12” to the ceiling. So I like the idea an astartes in armour would stoop through and a primarch would feel cramped but not as bad as Gandalf in Bag End. So say 6’8” or so for a regular astartes, 7’2” ish for primarchs in plenty. That would still be terrifying and appear as “giants” to the awestruck imperial citizens around them.