More Sisters Models

[painting.for.my.sanity]

It also shows the squad with full autoguns

[ThePenitentOne]

I wonder what the delivery system for their 40k rules will be. White Dwarf?

 

None of the stuff in the Octarius box had 40k rules, but those units are similar enough to existing codex entries- novitiates are brand new.

[sitnam]

I wonder what the delivery system for their 40k rules will be. White Dwarf?

 

None of the stuff in the Octarius box had 40k rules, but those units are similar enough to existing codex entries- novitiates are brand new.

I mean, they did have 40k rules, because both veteran guardsmen and Kommandos were pre-existing in the codex.

 

I bet they might include 40k data sheets in the box, similar to BSF. That wasn’t necessary for the Octarius box

Edited September 20, 2021 by sitnam

[Slasher956]

These girls could be objectively worse than Guardsman, and 8 ppm and we'd still take them, because if all you want is someone to babysit an objective, they are better for the job than an 11 ppm sister.

 Easy answer... they arent core or <Order> & dont get ObSec... or they only get ObSec at max size

 

I

[Tokugawa]

Honestly say, BS2+ and BS5+ don't make much difference when the model is equipped with auto pistol…

[tvih]

 

These girls could be objectively worse than Guardsman, and 8 ppm and we'd still take them, because if all you want is someone to babysit an objective, they are better for the job than an 11 ppm sister.

 Easy answer... they arent core or <Order> & dont get ObSec... or they only get ObSec at max size

 

I

 

Well, fluff-wise they technically shouldn't get <Order>, since they haven't been assigned to one at that point from my understanding, so I could see that being the case. ObSec? Well, lacking it would indeed make them less desirable, though they could still hold backline objectives. It's a possibility.

 

Honestly say, BS2+ and BS5+ don't make much difference when the model is equipped with auto pistol…

Which, once again, is where the autogun comes in. No, it's still not superb, but it's not like a bolter is a great weapon in-game either.

[Beams]

 

 

These girls could be objectively worse than Guardsman, and 8 ppm and we'd still take them, because if all you want is someone to babysit an objective, they are better for the job than an 11 ppm sister.

 Easy answer... they arent core or <Order> & dont get ObSec... or they only get ObSec at max size

 

I

 

Well, fluff-wise they technically shouldn't get <Order>, since they haven't been assigned to one at that point from my understanding, so I could see that being the case. ObSec? Well, lacking it would indeed make them less desirable, though they could still hold backline objectives. It's a possibility.

 

Honestly say, BS2+ and BS5+ don't make much difference when the model is equipped with auto pistol…

Which, once again, is where the autogun comes in. No, it's still not superb, but it's not like a bolter is a great weapon in-game either.

 

 

A bolter is still miles better -- str 4 vs str 3 is a big cliff.

Also, sisters have a surprising amount of buffs to bolt, flame and melta weapons, and very few that buff autoguns.

IF the noviatiates are core, the only buffs they'll get is reroll ones from canoness/palatine.

 

And SoB BS squads can be surprisingly durable against small arms fire, especially once you get to cover for that sweet 2+ save, and can get to 5-20 man squads, so there isn't much use to these guys.

Crusaders/DCA are smaller and cheaper action monkeys, and are effectively slotless.

 

I can see taking 1 max sized squad as a fun, this is a cool unit! or 1 min sized squad as a "well, this saves me 20 pts", but I don't really see anyone taking these as their only obsec.

 

LASGUN vs BS in Cover:

.5 to hit, .5 to wound, .16 go through 2+ save, means 25 lasgun shots vs Sisters in cover to kill 1. 

VS

.5 to hit, .5 to wound, .33 go throu 3+ save, means 12 lasgun shots vs 3+ (Noviaties in cover if 4+ base) to kill 1

VS

.5 to hit, .5 to wound, .5 go throu 4+ save, means 8 lasgun shots vs 4+ (Noviaties in cover if 5+ base) to kill 1

 

Bolt Rifle vs BS

.66 to hit, .66 to wound, .66 go through from 5+ Save (-1AP), means 3.5 bolt rifle shots vs Noviaties in Open (If 4+ save) to kill 1.

.66 to hit, .66 to wound, .5 go through from 4+ Save (-1 AP), means 5 Bolt Rifle shots vs Sisters in Open to kill 1

.66 to hit, .66 to wound, .33 go through from 3+ save (-1AP in cover), means 7 bolt rifle shots vs Sisters in Cover to Kill 1

[tvih]

Bolt Rifles can also be -2AP with Tactical Doctrine during turns 2 & 3, at which point the survivability difference when in cover will be smaller, not to mention if a SM player wants your troop gone from an objective, it'll be gone regardless of which unit it is. Negligible difference given the likely points difference. And if you're relying on baseline weapons with no AP to kill ANYTHING beyond grots to begin with, you're gonna be having a bad time. Heck, with ork boyz being T5 now you're not gonna be killing even those much with either weapon - same chance with either.

 

And as far as Sisters' buffs to bolt weapons - that's generally via Defenders of the Faith, Holy Trinity or Blessed Bolts. Of which only the first applies to Boltguns without other weapons in the mix, or being Storm Bolters instead. Or if you're using the Unshakeable Vengeance Minoris conviction, which by far most aren't. Buffs to other weapons only matter if you're using those - competitively folks tend to run bare Battle Sister squads from what I've seen, and casually it doesn't matter either way. The rare case where I would even considering using DotF offensively would be in rapid fire range with a squad of 10+ models, which I normally wouldn't be using to begin with, or preferably with a Dominion Storm Bolter squad. And assuming Novitiates are 4+ BS even if they had boltguns? Yeah nah. Better uses for 2CP in most cases. Besides, Novitiates may get a stratagem or two of their own, who knows.

 

In the end it really does mostly come down to whether the Novitiates can be taken in squads of 5 or not, and of course the points cost. Doing specific math on them won't help that much before having all the info.

[Beams]

Bolt Rifles can also be -2AP with Tactical Doctrine during turns 2 & 3, at which point the survivability difference when in cover will be smaller, not to mention if a SM player wants your troop gone from an objective, it'll be gone regardless of which unit it is. Negligible difference given the likely points difference. And if you're relying on baseline weapons with no AP to kill ANYTHING beyond grots to begin with, you're gonna be having a bad time. Heck, with ork boyz being T5 now you're not gonna be killing even those much with either weapon - same chance with either.

 

And as far as Sisters' buffs to bolt weapons - that's generally via Defenders of the Faith, Holy Trinity or Blessed Bolts. Of which only the first applies to Boltguns without other weapons in the mix, or being Storm Bolters instead. Or if you're using the Unshakeable Vengeance Minoris conviction, which by far most aren't. Buffs to other weapons only matter if you're using those - competitively folks tend to run bare Battle Sister squads from what I've seen, and casually it doesn't matter either way. The rare case where I would even considering using DotF offensively would be in rapid fire range with a squad of 10+ models, which I normally wouldn't be using to begin with, or preferably with a Dominion Storm Bolter squad. And assuming Novitiates are 4+ BS even if they had boltguns? Yeah nah. Better uses for 2CP in most cases. Besides, Novitiates may get a stratagem or two of their own, who knows.

 

In the end it really does mostly come down to whether the Novitiates can be taken in squads of 5 or not, and of course the points cost. Doing specific math on them won't help that much before having all the info.

 

I don't know. My only real point is these sisters aren't nearly as good as battle sisters, and everyone else's points basically just boil down to: STATS DON'T MATTER FOR TROOPS

 

Which I really don't understand, but hey, whatever.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Beams

[Bonzi]

 

 

Bolt Rifles can also be -2AP with Tactical Doctrine during turns 2 & 3, at which point the survivability difference when in cover will be smaller, not to mention if a SM player wants your troop gone from an objective, it'll be gone regardless of which unit it is. Negligible difference given the likely points difference. And if you're relying on baseline weapons with no AP to kill ANYTHING beyond grots to begin with, you're gonna be having a bad time. Heck, with ork boyz being T5 now you're not gonna be killing even those much with either weapon - same chance with either.

 

And as far as Sisters' buffs to bolt weapons - that's generally via Defenders of the Faith, Holy Trinity or Blessed Bolts. Of which only the first applies to Boltguns without other weapons in the mix, or being Storm Bolters instead. Or if you're using the Unshakeable Vengeance Minoris conviction, which by far most aren't. Buffs to other weapons only matter if you're using those - competitively folks tend to run bare Battle Sister squads from what I've seen, and casually it doesn't matter either way. The rare case where I would even considering using DotF offensively would be in rapid fire range with a squad of 10+ models, which I normally wouldn't be using to begin with, or preferably with a Dominion Storm Bolter squad. And assuming Novitiates are 4+ BS even if they had boltguns? Yeah nah. Better uses for 2CP in most cases. Besides, Novitiates may get a stratagem or two of their own, who knows.

 

In the end it really does mostly come down to whether the Novitiates can be taken in squads of 5 or not, and of course the points cost. Doing specific math on them won't help that much before having all the info.

I don't know. My only real point is these sisters aren't nearly as good as battle sisters, and everyone else's points basically just boil down to: STATS DON'T MATTER FOR TROOPS

 

Which I really don't understand, but hey, whatever.

Well, in short terms 40K meta in 9th Ed is a trading game. If you want to win you have to hold one or more objectives in the center. 40K has also amped everyone's damage to crazy levels so basically anything you run onto a center objective for primary or secondary points is probably going to die in your opponents turn. Most sisters armies don't bring troops to do killing, they bring them to capture points and sacrifice as pawns. If these new sisters are troops and are cheaper than basic sisters it doesn't really matter what their stats are...they're cheaper, thus better sacrificial pawns. They get points for primary and secondaries for less cost and let you bring more of the dangerous units you need to kill your opponents pawns.

 

This isn't a universal truth of course. Argent Shroud gets milage out of Sisters with a multimelta, Valorous Heart can be durable enough to hold without being wiped out with enough buffs. Armies like TSons or Death Guard lean into durability and staying power, but even they rely on Tzangors and Poxwalkers to put bodies on points.

 

Sisters in general are cheap glass cannons, a cheaper sacrificial unit would be a competitive boost for us.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Bonzi

[Slasher956]

 

 

 

These girls could be objectively worse than Guardsman, and 8 ppm and we'd still take them, because if all you want is someone to babysit an objective, they are better for the job than an 11 ppm sister.

 Easy answer... they arent core or <Order> & dont get ObSec... or they only get ObSec at max size

 

I

 

Well, fluff-wise they technically shouldn't get <Order>, since they haven't been assigned to one at that point from my understanding, so I could see that being the case. ObSec? Well, lacking it would indeed make them less desirable, though they could still hold backline objectives. It's a possibility.

 

 

 

Dont Sisters have a couple of ways of giving <Core> ObSec to units anyway?

[Beams]

 

 

Bolt Rifles can also be -2AP with Tactical Doctrine during turns 2 & 3, at which point the survivability difference when in cover will be smaller, not to mention if a SM player wants your troop gone from an objective, it'll be gone regardless of which unit it is. Negligible difference given the likely points difference. And if you're relying on baseline weapons with no AP to kill ANYTHING beyond grots to begin with, you're gonna be having a bad time. Heck, with ork boyz being T5 now you're not gonna be killing even those much with either weapon - same chance with either.

 

And as far as Sisters' buffs to bolt weapons - that's generally via Defenders of the Faith, Holy Trinity or Blessed Bolts. Of which only the first applies to Boltguns without other weapons in the mix, or being Storm Bolters instead. Or if you're using the Unshakeable Vengeance Minoris conviction, which by far most aren't. Buffs to other weapons only matter if you're using those - competitively folks tend to run bare Battle Sister squads from what I've seen, and casually it doesn't matter either way. The rare case where I would even considering using DotF offensively would be in rapid fire range with a squad of 10+ models, which I normally wouldn't be using to begin with, or preferably with a Dominion Storm Bolter squad. And assuming Novitiates are 4+ BS even if they had boltguns? Yeah nah. Better uses for 2CP in most cases. Besides, Novitiates may get a stratagem or two of their own, who knows.

 

In the end it really does mostly come down to whether the Novitiates can be taken in squads of 5 or not, and of course the points cost. Doing specific math on them won't help that much before having all the info.

I don't know. My only real point is these sisters aren't nearly as good as battle sisters, and everyone else's points basically just boil down to: STATS DON'T MATTER FOR TROOPS

 

Which I really don't understand, but hey, whatever.

Well, in short terms 40K meta in 9th Ed is a trading game. If you want to win you have to hold one or more objectives in the center. 40K has also amped everyone's damage to crazy levels so basically anything you run onto a center objective for primary or secondary points is probably going to die in your opponents turn. Most sisters armies don't bring troops to do killing, they bring them to capture points and sacrifice as pawns. If these new sisters are troops and are cheaper than basic sisters it doesn't really matter what their stats are...they're cheaper, thus better sacrificial pawns. They get points for primary and secondaries for less cost and let you bring more of the dangerous units you need to kill your opponents pawns.

 

This isn't a universal truth of course. Argent Shroud gets milage out of Sisters with a multimelta, Valorous Heart can be durable enough to hold without being wiped out with enough buffs. Armies like TSons or Death Guard lean into durability and staying power, but even they rely on Tzangors and Poxwalkers to put bodies on points.

 

Sisters in general are cheap glass cannons, a cheaper sacrificial unit would be a competitive boost for us.

 

 

Right, its a trading game -- so making it harder to trade is good? 

 

Like, at 9pts its possibly a 10 pt difference for a significant increase in durability against the other players mandatory units, and if that can force them to have to waste more fire power, it seems like thats better.

 

I routinely put my BSS in cover, I don't know if y'all do. But it makes them very hard to shift without dedicating higher aps on them. I've had them survive rounds of shooting from Custodes troops, Space Marine troops, Necron troops and guard troops. If my opponent has to fire a Leman Russ at my BSS squads, he's not firing that Leman Russ at my Sacresants.

 

I dunno, I don't think the 30 pts it would save you across all three troop slots y'all would take are worth it. 

[Bonzi]

Well, for this sort of discussion we are speaking in general of competitive tournament settings where lists are absolutely tuned to the max and 30 points means more guns or models where it matters. As I said before, this isn't an absolute but cheaper is better in the trade because your opponent IS going to kill what you put on the point as a sisters player and with a optimized list they arnt going to feel a real difference in struggle from 3+ to 4+.

 

When defending against Sanguinary Guard, Scarab Terminators, Death Shroud Terminators, Wytches, 20 Vanguard Rangers ect, five T3 models with 1 wound and a 3+ vs the same with a 4+ is just about a distinction without a difference. Even Sacresants get eaten up in those grinders but their strats, 4++ and their melee weapons make their points worthwhile.

 

Again, this is not to say regular sisters have no value or role, but tournament players will almost always gravitate to their cheapest bodies for their pawn units.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Bonzi

[Beams]

Well, for this sort of discussion we are speaking in general of competitive tournament settings where lists are absolutely tuned to the max and 30 points means more guns or models where it matters. As I said before, this isn't an absolute but cheaper is better in the trade because your opponent IS going to kill what you put on the point as a sisters player and with a optimized list they arnt going to feel a real difference in struggle from 3+ to 4+.

 

When defending against Sanguinary Guard, Scarab Terminators, Death Shroud Terminators, Wytches, 20 Vanguard Rangers ect, five T3 models with 1 wound and a 3+ vs the same with a 4+ is just about a distinction without a difference. Even Sacresants get eaten up in those grinders but their strats, 4++ and their melee weapons make their points worthwhile.

 

Again, this is not to say regular sisters have no value or role, but tournament players will almost always gravitate to their cheapest bodies for their pawn units.

 

Right, and I get that. 

 

I think you are wrong. I think that ultimately, if all you are doing with a troop choice is dying then you are correct.

But that most high level players are going to see it as, these units are 2 pts cheaper but don't earn those 2 pts. 

 

This reminds me of back in 7th edition when everyone would say how Space Marines were so much worse then sisters, but then conveniently ignore all the stats they got for +2 pts, and how Space Marines were more well rounded and had better access to support and buffs, and ultimately placed much better in tournaments due to those issues

 

A novitiate at T3 and 4+ save dies to a stiff glance. 9pts is too much for them.

The opponent doesn't need to send any of the things you've described to fight them -- they can do it with Guardsmen.

 

A BSS with T3 and 3+ save still dies easy, but no where as easy. They can't be killed by Lasguns (26 lasguns on average to kill one BSS in cover).

 

Like my original point is just this:

Some one suggested these models need to be at least 9 pts based on theorized stats they came up with.

9 pts for a model that has 4+ save, 4+ BS and a Str 3 gun, is not good. There are much better models for 9 pts.

 

Like, put them in squads of 10, and they are basically guardsmen with slightly better armor, so maybe 60/65 pts for 10. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Beams

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Like my original point is just this:

Some one suggested these models need to be at least 9 pts based on theorized stats they came up with.

9 pts for a model that has 4+ save, 4+ BS and a Str 3 gun, is not good. There are much better models for 9 pts.

 

Like, put them in squads of 10, and they are basically guardsmen with slightly better armor, so maybe 60/65 pts for 10. 

 

 

Yep. Especially if they lose either Order traits, AoF, or even worse... Both.

 

Either way, I'm getting some. I don't include models in my armies based on how they improve my chances of winning- I don't even do it exactly for rule of cool.

 

I do it for the story. Novitiates allow me to tell stories in games that I've never been able to tell before.

[Beams]

 

 

Like my original point is just this:

Some one suggested these models need to be at least 9 pts based on theorized stats they came up with.

9 pts for a model that has 4+ save, 4+ BS and a Str 3 gun, is not good. There are much better models for 9 pts.

 

Like, put them in squads of 10, and they are basically guardsmen with slightly better armor, so maybe 60/65 pts for 10. 

 

 

Yep. Especially if they lose either Order traits, AoF, or even worse... Both.

 

Either way, I'm getting some. I don't include models in my armies based on how they improve my chances of winning- I don't even do it exactly for rule of cool.

 

I do it for the story. Novitiates allow me to tell stories in games that I've never been able to tell before.

 

Agreed. Novitiates will be cool to have in the army. Maybe 1 or 2 squads just for a cool thematic bit.

[WAR]

I figure I will need 2 squads just to have every variant option, like the DKoK veterans.

[tvih]

I'll get the one squad, regardless of rules. Just gonna magnetize arms where necessary. Same goes for the Krieg if I end up getting them, they seem very easy to magnetize based on the instructions. Though if I do get both, I should've bought more 2mm magnets in my magnet order last week...

[Slasher956]

One thing that has occured to me...... are there any units with a mix save?

eg the repenita superior used to be the repentia unit champion, but is now a separet unit choice..... so will the Noviate Superior in her power armour be in the unit or will she be another slotless Elite Choice for us?

[WAR]

I would have to say yes that she will be an slotless choice

[Maschinenpriester]

One thing that has occured to me...... are there any units with a mix save?

 

eg the repenita superior used to be the repentia unit champion, but is now a separet unit choice..... so will the Noviate Superior in her power armour be in the unit or will she be another slotless Elite Choice for us?

They kind of exist. For example Deathwing terminators can mix and match models with stom shields and those without. Therefore you can take a save on the invul of that shield. If I am correct the wound has to be allocated to that model then.

 

It feels kind of wonky though. So I also think it would go into the plethora of slotless choices we have.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Maschinenpriester

[Bonzi]

There are mixed save units in the game. The most typical one is a unit with models in area cover and models out area of cover.

 

The rule is the controlling player chooses which save to use, but all wounds lost must be taken from a model with the save you used. Also, you must continue making saves against that model to resolve the remainder of the wounds. Meaning if you had a mixed Terminator assault squad with shield and hammer and others with claws and someone shot you with plasma guns and bolters, if you save the plasma against the storm shield you must save the bolters against the same model until it dies. You can't change the saving model in the middle of resolving wounds unless that model dies, then you can select a different model and the process repeats.

 

Mixed units are a bummer because you can't speed roll them.