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Barrage - direct fire


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#1
MichaelCarmine

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Hello there!

 

I was wondering - when i fire a barrage weapon, such as a Medusa siege gun directly (line of sight/full BS), do i still benefit from the barrage-"buff"?

So, if i direct-fire at a Spartan with a Flare-Shield, do i still hit the side-armour, bypassing the Flare-Shield?

 

By reading the Barrage-Rules, it seems that way, but i think, i remember it differently, so that i fire like normal ordnance, hiting the Side that's facing to me.

 

Edit: Maybe i just have an older edition in mind! xD


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 14 September 2021 - 07:57 AM.

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#2
Gorgoff

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Hello there!

 

I was wondering - when i fire a barrage weapon, such as a Medusa siege gun directly (line of sight/full BS), do i still benefit from the barrage-"buff"?

So, if i direct-fire at a Spartan with a Flare-Shield, do i still hit the side-armour, bypassing the Flare-Shield?

 

By reading the Barrage-Rules, it seems that way, but i think, i remember it differently, so that i fire like normal ordnance, hiting the Side that's facing to me.

 

Edit: Maybe i just have an older edition in mind! xD

No, it is a regular shot if you shoot directly. 


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#3
MichaelCarmine

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Do you have a rule/errata, that support that, because it doesnt say so in the barrage-rule.
And i cannot find an errata either. ^^'

Edit: 'cause the "benefit" of firing directly is, that i can use my BS and don't have to bother about minimum distances like on the earthshaker.
There's no mentioning of any drawbacks... 🤔

Edited by MichaelCarmine, 14 September 2021 - 11:49 AM.

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Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
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#4
Gorgoff

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Do you have a rule/errata, that support that, because it doesnt say so in the barrage-rule.
And i cannot find an errata either. ^^'

Edit: 'cause the "benefit" of firing directly is, that i can use my BS and don't have to bother about minimum distances like on the earthshaker.
There's no mentioning of any drawbacks...

Oh, I think you are right.

Barrage weapons doesn't say that you loose the barrage bonus if you shoot directly.

Interesting.

Was it different in 7th edition and I never saw that in all those years? huh.png

Pretty cool.


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#5
MichaelCarmine

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Do you have a rule/errata, that support that, because it doesnt say so in the barrage-rule.
And i cannot find an errata either. ^^'

Edit: 'cause the "benefit" of firing directly is, that i can use my BS and don't have to bother about minimum distances like on the earthshaker.
There's no mentioning of any drawbacks...

Oh, I think you are right.

Barrage weapons doesn't say that you loose the barrage bonus if you shoot directly.

Interesting.

Was it different in 7th edition and I never saw that in all those years? huh.png

Pretty cool.

 

Yeah, i too thought, that if firing directly, they would fire like a regular battle-/demolisher-cannon... All those years... xD


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Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#6
Brofist

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You have it right MichaelCarmine. Shooting directly doesn't remove barrage from the weapon profile.
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#7
MichaelCarmine

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So the Arquitor Bombard gets more interesting for me...

 

That means, that with the Iron Fire RoW (IW) they (bombards) rarely even need markers for a perfekt hit! =]


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#8
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#9
Gorgoff

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https://youtu.be/XJTXpItCqFU?t=71

That was hands down one of the worst if not the worst comic adaption I've ever seen. But Angelina looked stellar so that's why people watched it I guess.
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#10
SkimaskMohawk

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So back in the day of 6th there was a difference between direct and indirect fire. Now it's just always the benefits of indirect+ bs reduction if you can draw los.

The thing about arquitors though, is that they don't actually have the barrage rule iirc, and that kind of lead to the whole meme about them. But at the same time, their custom firing rules essentially lets them operate as barrage.

#11
MichaelCarmine

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So back in the day of 6th there was a difference between direct and indirect fire. Now it's just always the benefits of indirect+ bs reduction if you can draw los.

The thing about arquitors though, is that they don't actually have the barrage rule iirc, and that kind of lead to the whole meme about them. But at the same time, their custom firing rules essentially lets them operate as barrage.

Yeah, i remember, that that wasn't a thing back in my Imperial Guard "Ordnance penetrating hit 6"-Days... ^^

 

Well, actually, all of its weapons, except the Spicula missiles, do have the barrage Keyword.

Atleast on the PDF from Forgeworld =]

 

Edit: Only thing that bothers me about him is the "Heavy" rule, dosn't really give him any bonuses, except when his Mainweapon is destroyed...

I wish, "Heavy" would cancel the malus for firing ordnance-weapons...

I mean, whats the point in taking autocannons, if you can't fire them normal, except for when you decide to not fire your main gun?!


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 17 September 2021 - 09:24 AM.

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Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#12
Gorgoff

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So back in the day of 6th there was a difference between direct and indirect fire. Now it's just always the benefits of indirect+ bs reduction if you can draw los.

The thing about arquitors though, is that they don't actually have the barrage rule iirc, and that kind of lead to the whole meme about them. But at the same time, their custom firing rules essentially lets them operate as barrage.

Yeah, i remember, that that wasn't a thing back in my Imperial Guard "Ordnance penetrating hit 6"-Days... ^^

 

Well, actually, all of its weapons, except the Spicula missiles, do have the barrage Keyword.

Atleast on the PDF from Forgeworld =]

 

Edit: Only thing that bothers me about him is the "Heavy" rule, dosn't really give him any bonuses, except when his Mainweapon is destroyed...

I wish, "Heavy" would cancel the malus for firing ordnance-weapons...

I mean, whats the point in taking autocannons, if you can't fire them normal, except for when you decide to not fire your main gun?!

 

Another instance where it come apparent that the designers don't know how their own rules work.

It causes no harm but I think they obviously thought that heavy means you can always move and fire regardless of the weapons.


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#13
SkimaskMohawk

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Lol sorry Michael, for some reason I had arquitor conflated with the spicula system; the two other weapons have barrage. Imo the heavy rule is a deliberate handicap; they didn't want people slamming squadrons down and just going flat out if they have the top of the turn to get into position for the easy range. But also yes, in 6th it gave you full shooting in exchange for slower speed, so maybe it was another mistake.
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#14
Dark Legionnare

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I've always assumed they mistyped:

 

"Vehicles and Ordnance Weapons"

Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons.

However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn to.

 

When they meant it to say:

 

"Vehicles and Ordnance Weapons"

Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons.

However, a vehicle that MOVED AND fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn.

 

That makes "Heavy" account for ordnance weapons.


Edited by Dark Legionnare, 22 September 2021 - 10:56 AM.

9th Ed. "Star Phantoms" (SM, Primaris Units Only) - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "The Inexorable Demise" (DG) - Record: W|5 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "The Dark Legion" (DKoK) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Adeptus Custodes" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Orkz" (Warboss Metul-'ead's Waaagh!) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|1

9th Ed. "Vlka Fenryka" (SM) - Record: W|3 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Crimson Fists" (SM, First-born Only) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Farsight Forward Scouting Force" (Farsight Enclaves, Tau) - Record: W|1 D|1 L|1

9th Ed. "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|1 (WIP, force mustering)  

30k.     "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0 (WIP, force mustering)


#15
SkimaskMohawk

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Well ordnance has always had that restriction so it's not a mistype. But, ordnance used to be far more powerful; in 4th you had your own vehicle damage table chart for ordnance and it allowed you to straight up kill all the passengers of a transport. You didn't leave people embarked against ordnance in 4th
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#16
Dark Legionnare

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Well ordnance has always had that restriction so it's not a mistype. But, ordnance used to be far more powerful; in 4th you had your own vehicle damage table chart for ordnance and it allowed you to straight up kill all the passengers of a transport. You didn't leave people embarked against ordnance in 4th

Oh, for sure. I remember well the 2004-2006 halcyon days of my rhino with Tac marines hoping and praying the Vindicator didn't annihilate them all in one fell swoop.

In this case, I've always heard AoD is 7th "perfected" so to speak, so it's struck me as something they would've made like I mentioned above.

Since it doesn't really scale crazy balance-wise, given AoD is so limited faction-wise. Leman russes are the biggest proponents of it, and it's not exactly a huge deal with them begin able to fire one weapon for Aux, and three for militias.


9th Ed. "Star Phantoms" (SM, Primaris Units Only) - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "The Inexorable Demise" (DG) - Record: W|5 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "The Dark Legion" (DKoK) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Adeptus Custodes" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Orkz" (Warboss Metul-'ead's Waaagh!) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|1

9th Ed. "Vlka Fenryka" (SM) - Record: W|3 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Crimson Fists" (SM, First-born Only) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Farsight Forward Scouting Force" (Farsight Enclaves, Tau) - Record: W|1 D|1 L|1

9th Ed. "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|1 (WIP, force mustering)  

30k.     "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0 (WIP, force mustering)


#17
SkimaskMohawk

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I've had a lot of rants about this over the years, but the gist of it is that 30k wasnt designed for 7th and it lost a lot of interesting mechanics but was stuck with the edition. I'd hope that AoD 2nd edition isnt just "7th perfected" but "5th - 7th all star edition". Ruin levels need to come back and end barrage's reign of terror...

#18
Dark Legionnare

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I've had a lot of rants about this over the years, but the gist of it is that 30k wasnt designed for 7th and it lost a lot of interesting mechanics but was stuck with the edition. I'd hope that AoD 2nd edition isnt just "7th perfected" but "5th - 7th all star edition". Ruin levels need to come back and end barrage's reign of terror...

Oh man, haha. I'm glad you mentioned that. Me being somebody who's played since late 3rd ed up until 5th, and then was on a long hiatus until mid-8th where I returned to it and started AoD as a money-capable adult.

When I was first getting into it after getting my first batch of Luna Wolves done, I was playing with a bud. And that EXACT situation came up with my rapier mortars.  He was under a building level and the following occurred when i went to shoot my last unit, the mortars.

Me: "Oh, well shooting phase is done, can't shoot you in there."

Buddy: "What? Rules don't say you can't."

Me: "I vividly remember plunging-fire weapons couldn't go through ceilings and such."

*We both scour the book for an hour+*

Me: "Huh, I guess you can just use arty on anything you want now.... F that, that makes no sense, you're safe, shooting phase over.'


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9th Ed. "Star Phantoms" (SM, Primaris Units Only) - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "The Inexorable Demise" (DG) - Record: W|5 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "The Dark Legion" (DKoK) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Adeptus Custodes" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Orkz" (Warboss Metul-'ead's Waaagh!) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|1

9th Ed. "Vlka Fenryka" (SM) - Record: W|3 D|0 L|0
9th Ed. "Crimson Fists" (SM, First-born Only) - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0

9th Ed. "Farsight Forward Scouting Force" (Farsight Enclaves, Tau) - Record: W|1 D|1 L|1

9th Ed. "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|1 D|0 L|1 (WIP, force mustering)  

30k.     "Luna Wolves" - Record: W|2 D|0 L|0 (WIP, force mustering)





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