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Lambdan Lion Storm Troopers --> Counter the Meta (?)


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12 replies to this topic

#1
L30n1d4s

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I was thinking about this recently and I started wondering if Lambdan Lions, especially with their AP-3 Hotshot weapons, are an efficient counter to the current dominant factions in the meta (i.e. AdMech, Sisters, Drukhari, certain MEQ builds)?

For example, with all their defensive buffs, 20 man blobs of Lucius Skitarii can ignore AP-1/-2, only be wounded on a 4+, and get up to a 3+/6++ versus Shooting attacks. Well, Lambdan Lion Hotshot Lasguns only wound Skitarii on 4+s anyway, are AP-3 (so avoiding the defense against AP-1/-2), and bring even 3+ save Vanguard/Rangers down to their 6++ Invul.... with the "FRF, SRF" order, a squad of 10 Lambdan Lions can get 37 shots, 28-29 hits (with RRs of 1s from WL Trait), 14-15 wounds, and 11-12 Unsaved Wounds. Relative to the rest of the AM, that is a highly efficient way to kill Skitarii, with two squads of Deep Striking Lambdan Lions able to reliably "one shot" a fully buffed up Vanguard/Ranger blob.

Similarly, against things like Sacrosanct Celestians in Cover, a 10 man Lambdan Lion squad with Strat support can reliably kill almost an entire 10 Sister squad, which is very tough for most opponents. Even against Drukhari, with their Invul saves, Lambdan Lions can use the Strat to get MWs on 6s to Wound to chip through things like Raiders, Talos, and characters with Invuls while their AP-3 Lasguns can make short work of Kabalite Warriors, Incubi, Scourges, etc.

#2
duz_

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How does that compare on a pt / pt basis? Issue with Scions in general is their short range shooting, particularly for rapid fire range.



#3
sairence

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Personally, I think HS Lasguns aren't high enough S and range to be more than just a side-note. Yes, they work into those targets, but HS Volleyguns do it better at higher range and S, for only a few points more and I haven't found a proper use case for them yet. I wish they became an Assault weapon, Heavy is just a weird for it and Scions in general. Extra range on the Volleygun would be great too, to give it an edge over Plasma there.

For the lasguns, the fact that you can't properly doubletap out of deepstrike for most regiments is a huge issue. And if you use them as Lions en masse, you'll probably combine them with the MW on 6s to hit strat, which makes the AP irrelevant.

Scions are made for all the special weapons and the Lions in particular work best as a mechanised detachment with buffed Taurox Primes. They don't get any particular buffs out of deepstrike and the extra AP is often wasted due to so many things having invun saves.

They're still one of the best all-purpose picks thanks to the amazing WL-trait so you'll never go wrong with them.

Edited by sairence, 15 September 2021 - 07:31 AM.

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#4
Diagramdude

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Lambdan Lions dakka prime spam with an officer for reroll 1s and refractor field 5+ invulnerable supported by demo TC and FP manticore is probably our most viable build until the codex comes out.

#5
Brainpsyk

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There's really a downsides with scions:

 

  1. (as mentioned) can't rapid fire out of deepstrike
  2. You can't take them in the same detachment as our main killy units (TCs & manticores)
  3. They run out of steam really quick due to lack of bodies

On #1, it's only a a problem if you're planning on taking a backfield objective, but most of the time you're screened out.  If you're just planning on dropping in for a ROD or Engage On All Fronts then you're good.  At 45 points, Scions are even more a value pick than regular guards squads

 

#2 is a big problem.  This forces us to spend 2-3 CP for another detachment just to play with them. 

 

Finally #3 is what hurts the most.  With T3 and 4+ armor, we're not that durable, and with only 5 bodies for 45 points, we're more expensive than a lot of units that we're trading for.  5-man skitari rangers are only 40 points to start.  10 Celestian Sacresants is 140 points (sans extra wargear).  So we're lacking in sheer number of bodies it takes to get to turn 5.

 

2 squads of scions with 2xHSVG and Tempestor Prime with TCR is 155, so we're still trading down.  (Sacresants in cover get  a 1+ save, so even AP-3 gives them a 4+ save in cover)

 

Most competitive lists are still running a primary detachment of regular guard, and a Patrol of LL Scions, most often for those ROD or EOAF points. 



#6
sairence

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#2 is incorrect. You can take Scions in a regular Guard detachment just fine, they just don't benefit from any special rules.
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#7
jarms48

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I’ve been playing infantry spam Scions. Anywhere from 160 - 180 models.

It’s been doing pretty well, definitely better than my regular Guard. Hotshots with FRFSRF and EPS (requires the Laurels relic) is devastating to vehicles. Especially if you’re in the RR1 aura.

Against infantry FRFSRF is great too. Especially if you pop either the +1 strength stratagem, or the +1 to wound stratagem. Then there’s also the exploding mortal wounds on 6’s.
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#8
Brainpsyk

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#2 is incorrect. You can take Scions in a regular Guard detachment just fine, they just don't benefit from any special rules.

Ay, but the question was about Lamden Lions (or any specialized regiment), which you can't take in a normal detachment.

 

I’ve been playing infantry spam Scions. Anywhere from 160 - 180 models.

It’s been doing pretty well, definitely better than my regular Guard. Hotshots with FRFSRF and EPS (requires the Laurels relic) is devastating to vehicles. Especially if you’re in the RR1 aura.

Against infantry FRFSRF is great too. Especially if you pop either the +1 strength stratagem, or the +1 to wound stratagem. Then there’s also the exploding mortal wounds on 6’s.


Interesting. How have you been filling out the last ~500 points, or have you just been filling out with bodies?


Edited by Brainpsyk, 19 September 2021 - 04:26 PM.


#9
WarriorFish

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Now I've finally got a Stormie game in, albeit a small one: they're pretty decent as a unit. I can see how jarms gets good results with so many the issue has always been the breadth of choice (i.e. very little). The reach you have is great and with the Psychic Awakening book you have a good set of tools to help you get the job done. As has been mentioned the range is the main problem along with Strength so if you don't have the numbers then something to help here goes far.

 

We definitely need to hear more about Stormtrooper lists and how they perform, all the more so at larger points where they have increasingly less to work with.


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#10
jarms48

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Interesting. How have you been filling out the last ~500 points, or have you just been filling out with bodies?


Plasma guns, lots of plasma guns. EPS makes plasma amazing at killing vehicles/monsters, with the RR1 aura it’s pretty hard to die of an overheat. 4 plasma guns, or 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol can do a ton of wounds. The latter is a potential 18 damage from 9 shots, or 9 damage if they have a -1 damage ability.
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#11
LinkStatic

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I love the lambdan lions trait,strat and relic. In my last match, I took a scions detachment (2 Temp Primes, 2x5 Plasma, command squad 4 melta, 1x10 with 4 HSVG) but as Iotan Gorgonnes and the 5" deepstrike is sooo useful. Its hard to pass on that. I want to try LL and maybe add the three Taurox Primes I have in along with a Valkyrie.

#12
Diagramdude

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If you’re going pure scions or majority scions Lambdan Lions is usually the strongest choice, AP3 on hotshots is such a hard counter to the ignore AP1/2 factions that would blunt your shooting otherwise, and AP4 plasma is great vs power armor and vehicles. The relic and warlord trait are flat out amazing for a dakka prime parking lot, and the mortal wound stratagem is situationally good against something with a good invulnerable save, especially if you’re eligible to reroll wound rolls via EPS or Vengeance for Cadia.

However if you are just bringing a smaller detachment of scions to augment your main force, the other scion regiments offer compelling tech depending on what you need. Lambdan Lions scale off their relic and warlord auras, plus the number of guns you are bringing to benefit from the extra AP. That doesn’t really pay out when you only bring 500-600 points of them.

LinkStatic makes a good point on Iotan Gorgonnes, just a couple melta squads can make a massive point-for-point impact off the 5” deep strike and don’t need a Valkyrie delivery. A 200-300pt patrol could force your opponent into cagey movement for several turns.

I’ve had success with full bare bone squads of Iotan Dragons, each 90pt squad rapid firing out of deepstrike with 36 hotshots and a plasma pistol, although it sucks against ignore AP2 targets.

I also really like 3 melta command squads of Kappic Eagles in a Valkyrie. 12 meltas disembarking 5” away, hitting on 2s and the tempestor prime giving them 3 orders from 24” away. Gives you huge flexibility on where to drop them without worrying about order range, and 120pts on the valk and 240pt on the meltas can usually trade up in kill points. You do need to pay for the three primes though.

#13
sairence

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The Melta-squads for the Gorgonnes are great, but I've been tending towards just one or two barebones 5-man squads. Some armies are really thin on the boadlrd and if their positioning themselves wrong on an objective you can straight up drop on the other side with your obsec and steal it.

Can really swing a game.
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