What should happen with the assault squad?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I like using them because they’re fluffy for BA, but they’re not great.

So what should happen with the assault squad? Should it be replaced in the FA slot by the VV?

Should they get a few more melee weapons options?

A new rule or two? (Turn1 deep strike for example)

 

Thoughts?

[XeonDragon]

I think moving VGV to FA would be OK. For me, making them much, much cheaper would be good (same with tactical marines) - maybe 15-17 points.

 

Alternatively, move them to troops. Assault intercessors (a melee focused troops choice) is a thing - why not assault focused jump pack troops?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think moving VGV to FA would be OK. For me, making them much, much cheaper would be good (same with tactical marines) - maybe 15-17 points.

 

Alternatively, move them to troops. Assault intercessors (a melee focused troops choice) is a thing - why not assault focused jump pack troops?

i don’t think we’ll see assault marines as troops ever again. Don’t think we’ll have jump troops as troops ever again in general.

 

I think replacing them with VVs in FA would be the best because marines already have too many elites options.

BA might end up being extremely competitive then though.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Charlo]

Much like the Tactical Squad, they're *fine*

 

They just aren't suitable for cutting edge competetive play.

 

However they do have speed and can take some special weapons (especially in BA).

[Karhedron]

They are a classic unit that has just been left behind as the codex has grown and evolved. VanVets pack much more punch in melee (as do Death Company). They make adequate special weapon caddies but Inceptors, Attack bikes etc can also bring melta and plasma to bear rapidly and are generally shootier and tougher.

 

For +1 point Vanguard Veterans bring 25% more attacks and more devastating melee weapon options. If Assault squads went down to about 15-16 points, they would have a role as cheap Objective grabbers and chaff clearers. As it stands, I can't think why you would ever not pay +1 point for VanVets.

[Rik Lightstar]

The biggest issue for a LOT of Marine options seems to be competition for slots rather than raw stats or points costs.

 

I think they could mitigate this a lot in a relatively fluffy and effective manner by making certain "common" Marine units 1-3 for their slot.

 

Some examples that spring to mind immediately:

 

Firstborn -

• Assault Marines
• Bikers
• Landspeeders
• Scouts
• Scout Bikers
• Devastators
• Predators

Primaris -

• Outriders
• Reivers
• Eliminators
• Suppressors
• Hellblasters

These are all units that are meant to be used regularly and en masse by Marine forces, I've deliberately excluded anything that would traditionally be "First Company" or "Specialist" such as Veterans, Terminators, Centurions, Vindicators, etc as those units tend to be pretty effective or are meant to be rarer.

 

By doing this you'd be able to open up quite a bit more flexibility in list building without giving "Troops" status to units that shouldn't have it.

 

Rik

[Karhedron]

To be fair it is not slot availability (at least as far as Assault squads are concerned). I would never take them in their current form, even if I had spare FA slots as other units do their job better for the points.

 

It comes down to effectiveness and efficiency. They either need a discount or a rules boost. Compare them to Assault Intercessors (+1A, +1Ld, Troops, ObjSec +1pt) or VanVets (+1A, +1Ld, +1pt, better wargear). I can't see a reason to ever take an Assault squad over one of those other units.

[Xenith]

Move them to Troops.

 

The unit's battlefield role no longer has any relevance to the force organisation slot, as of 8th edition, so any units ubiquitus to a space marine Battle Company, or reserve company, can do with the Troops force org slot. 

 

Marines could do with some cheap, fast moving ObSec. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Much like the Tactical Squad, they're *fine*

 

They just aren't suitable for cutting edge competetive play.

 

However they do have speed and can take some special weapons (especially in BA).

i think every unit in a codex should be competitive when compared to others that fill the same FoC and role, which assault squads really aren’t.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

[Xenith]

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

 

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Xenith

[Charlo]

 

Much like the Tactical Squad, they're *fine*

 

They just aren't suitable for cutting edge competetive play.

 

However they do have speed and can take some special weapons (especially in BA).

i think every unit in a codex should be competitive when compared to others that fill the same FoC and role, which assault squads really aren’t.

 

I'd be inclined to agree, but the Space Marine codex is just gargantuan. It's bloated from years and years of releases.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I think moving VGV to FA would be OK. For me, making them much, much cheaper would be good (same with tactical marines) - maybe 15-17 points.

 

Alternatively, move them to troops. Assault intercessors (a melee focused troops choice) is a thing - why not assault focused jump pack troops?

i don’t think we’ll see assault marines as troops ever again. Don’t think we’ll have jump troops as troops ever again in general.

 

I think replacing them with VVs in FA would be the best because marines already have too many elites options.

BA might end up being extremely competitive then though.

 

 

Yeah I have to agree that we won't see jump pack troops in 40k. I do think firstborn should have a second troop choice though. 

 

As far as a slot change making them more competitive I'm not really sure. Elite slots are petty easy to come by, and a lot of competitive lists take multiple detachments. I do think it would give them an edge in smaller point formats, but I think their issue has to do more with not having a lot of strikes last options, and a fair amount of armies having transhuman style effects (I also think dmg -1 is pretty brutal for them because they have a lot of good dmg 2 options).

 

To be fair it is not slot availability (at least as far as Assault squads are concerned). I would never take them in their current form, even if I had spare FA slots as other units do their job better for the points.

 

It comes down to effectiveness and efficiency. They either need a discount or a rules boost. Compare them to Assault Intercessors (+1A, +1Ld, Troops, ObjSec +1pt) or VanVets (+1A, +1Ld, +1pt, better wargear). I can't see a reason to ever take an Assault squad over one of those other units.

 

In my opinion they should give assault squads a bonus attack on the charge like "claw" units get in the space wolf book. Skyclaws have some other perks and a drawback so they'd still feel different and it would be a nice boost for the other chapters. I also think the intercessor shoot/fight twice stratagems should work for tactical and assault marines respectively. 

 

I think those two changes would put assault marines into a good place. They'd have a niche of being our assault option for hordes, and in chapters like BA and WS I think just be a solid choice in general.    

[Captain Idaho]

Making them a Troops Choice would help a bunch in a game focused on Primary and Secondary Missions.

 

I'd also try and separate a role from Vanguard as a personal choice, to one of almost demolitions/Grenadiers. So Vanguard are pure melee specialists, whilst Assault Marines use Grenades and pistols up close and then charge.

 

So perhaps a special rule that allows them to ALL to throw a grenade in the shooting phase, perhaps? Or when they Drop in like old Swooping Hawks?

 

I'm just spiralling here.

 

Or maybe give them +1 to wound against Heavy Support choices, to signify their role as spiking guns and vehicles etc?

 

I quite like that last idea and feel it should be more widely utilised anyway.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier.

BA don’t get any special options for units in the main codex

[Brother Lunkhead]

I miss playing assault troops Back when I first started 40K.... the later years of 3rd ed. as I recollect, it was a great diversion unit. Not the best, but one that could do some damage to your opponent if they weren't paying attention and failed to divert some resource to counter it. I'd use two in casual play and one in competitive play to good effect. Those days are long gone and I'm sure we'll never that again. I'd be happy though to see a point reduction, so I could at least justify them in a friendly game.  An additional +1A or ObSec +1 would be nice..... both would be even better

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Making them a Troops Choice would help a bunch in a game focused on Primary and Secondary Missions.

 

I'd also try and separate a role from Vanguard as a personal choice, to one of almost demolitions/Grenadiers. So Vanguard are pure melee specialists, whilst Assault Marines use Grenades and pistols up close and then charge.

 

So perhaps a special rule that allows them to ALL to throw a grenade in the shooting phase, perhaps? Or when they Drop in like old Swooping Hawks?

 

I'm just spiralling here.

 

Or maybe give them +1 to wound against Heavy Support choices, to signify their role as spiking guns and vehicles etc?

 

I quite like that last idea and feel it should be more widely utilised anyway.

your +1 to wound on heavy support units would at least give them a niche where no other units are competing.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I thought that. I'd expand it to loads of units that are redundant too:

 

• Assault Marines: +1 to wound against Heavy Support in melee and shooting.

• Reivers: +1 to wound against Troops and Heavy Support infantry in melee and shooting.

• Sternguard: Bolters get +1 to wound against infantry.

 

That sort of thing.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Making them a Troops Choice would help a bunch in a game focused on Primary and Secondary Missions.

 

I'd also try and separate a role from Vanguard as a personal choice, to one of almost demolitions/Grenadiers. So Vanguard are pure melee specialists, whilst Assault Marines use Grenades and pistols up close and then charge.

 

So perhaps a special rule that allows them to ALL to throw a grenade in the shooting phase, perhaps? Or when they Drop in like old Swooping Hawks?

 

I'm just spiralling here.

 

Or maybe give them +1 to wound against Heavy Support choices, to signify their role as spiking guns and vehicles etc?

 

I quite like that last idea and feel it should be more widely utilised anyway.

 

I should clarify that I do think assault marines should be troops, that alone would fix a ton of their issues. I just don't know if GW wants to go that direction. Which is way I suggested bigger buffs so that they could compete with the non-troop units.

 

I like your other ideals for them, but I think the +1 to wound on heavy support is going to trigger some people. I've noticed on the fixing vehicle threads that chip damage really bothers people. So I'd let them use the melta bomb stratagem for free once per game instead. I really think if GW put it up for a vote between marine vehicles getting +1 T, 5++, and damage -1, vs. immunity to strength 4 weapons that the strength 4 immunity would win. I don't really get it but its a hill they'll die on so I respect it.  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Yeah I thought that. I'd expand it to loads of units that are redundant too:

 

• Assault Marines: +1 to wound against Heavy Support in melee and shooting.

• Reivers: +1 to wound against Troops and Heavy Support infantry in melee and shooting.

• Sternguard: Bolters get +1 to wound against infantry.

 

That sort of thing.

i think making revivers +1 to wound HS then puts assault squads back in the same position

Also +1 to wound troops is a hard no for me on any unit unless that unit is absolutely :cuss tier at everything else.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Making them a Troops Choice would help a bunch in a game focused on Primary and Secondary Missions.

 

I'd also try and separate a role from Vanguard as a personal choice, to one of almost demolitions/Grenadiers. So Vanguard are pure melee specialists, whilst Assault Marines use Grenades and pistols up close and then charge.

 

So perhaps a special rule that allows them to ALL to throw a grenade in the shooting phase, perhaps? Or when they Drop in like old Swooping Hawks?

 

I'm just spiralling here.

 

Or maybe give them +1 to wound against Heavy Support choices, to signify their role as spiking guns and vehicles etc?

 

I quite like that last idea and feel it should be more widely utilised anyway.

keep in mind VVs are a fairly new unit, and before they existed ASMs actually filled the same role, hence why they had such a wide variety of special weapons options for a 5 man squad.

VVs came around and made ASMs pretty much obsolete

[Captain Idaho]

I remember a time when it was just Veterans, back in 3rd, who could take Chainswords and Bolt Pistols along with Terminator Honours (+1 attack) and thus were an assault unit without the speed of Jump Packs - an easy niche.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah I thought that. I'd expand it to loads of units that are redundant too:

 

• Assault Marines: +1 to wound against Heavy Support in melee and shooting.

• Reivers: +1 to wound against Troops and Heavy Support infantry in melee and shooting.

• Sternguard: Bolters get +1 to wound against infantry.

 

That sort of thing.

 

I don't think that much +1 to wound should be handed out. I don't mind it as buff tied to a charge, or stratagem but just giving +1 to wound as a static buffs would put marines back on top by a wide margin. I mean why even have t3 infantry at that point, I do think SoB, DE, and Admech are overpowered at the moment but this would put them in their place hurry. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Yeah I thought that. I'd expand it to loads of units that are redundant too:

 

• Assault Marines: +1 to wound against Heavy Support in melee and shooting.

• Reivers: +1 to wound against Troops and Heavy Support infantry in melee and shooting.

• Sternguard: Bolters get +1 to wound against infantry.

 

That sort of thing.

I don't think that much +1 to wound should be handed out. I don't mind it as buff tied to a charge, or stratagem but just giving +1 to wound as a static buffs would put marines back on top by a wide margin. I mean why even have t3 infantry at that point, I do think SoB, DE, and Admech are overpowered at the moment but this would put them in their place hurry.

against HS it wouldn’t be a massive deal I don’t think, but against troops, holy :cuss that would be OP

[Charlo]

Impact hits.

 

It's a rule they've been given in a few incarnations, but having it built in, instead of the stratsgem would be nice.

 

Maybe it works on the drop as opposed to just the charge too.

 

Or even better, because there are other jump pack units now, maybe Assault marines get a +1 to the roll to cause mortal wounds?