What should happen with the assault squad?

[Xenith]

 

 

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier.

BA don’t get any special options for units in the main codex

 

 

Yes they do. Hand flamers, inferno pistols, meltas on ASM units (via FAQ).

Edited September 20, 2021 by Xenith

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier.

BA don’t get any special options for units in the main codex

Yes they do. Hand flamers, inferno pistols, meltas on ASM units (via FAQ).

oh :cuss when did that happen?

 

The only FAQ/errata for BA and ASMs I’m seeing says nothing about hand flamers

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ahfwKGINAYViDr8B.pdf

Edited September 20, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A five man squad would be good for ROD.

[Medjugorje]

the assault squad should have an option to remove Obsec on the enemy or being 20 points cheaper.

[Beta galactosidase]

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Beta galactosidase

[Xenith]

 

 

 

 

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier.

BA don’t get any special options for units in the main codex

Yes they do. Hand flamers, inferno pistols, meltas on ASM units (via FAQ).

oh when did that happen?

 

The only FAQ/errata for BA and ASMs I’m seeing says nothing about hand flamers

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ahfwKGINAYViDr8B.pdf

 

 

No errata for hand flamers as they're already in the SM codex from day one. 

[Charlo]

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

[Medjugorje]

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

 

The main problem is that they dont have a clear task to do. Why should anyone take them if VV do EVERYTHING better. Especially for that pointcosts. They are normal MArines without Obsec - so they should be that cheap to compensate it or have an option for anything no other marine have. They are not faster then Bikes, Land Speeders or other jump pack units.

Without obsec they are trash... and if you use rites of war (WL trait ) then better use VV anyway.

 

If you could make them a troop choice for 1cp when your captain have a jump pack too would be not that bad.

[TheNewman]

 

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

That's only really true when the options don't completely overlap, but outside of Flamers there isn't anything in the Assault Marine kit that a VV can't take. ...well, maybe the Executioner Blade but that's a really easy translation to a Relic Blade, Master Crafted Chainsword, or Teeth of Terra.

[Charlo]

 

 

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

That's only really true when the options don't completely overlap, but outside of Flamers there isn't anything in the Assault Marine kit that a VV can't take. ...well, maybe the Executioner Blade but that's a really easy translation to a Relic Blade, Master Crafted Chainsword, or Teeth of Terra.

Plus eviceretors.

 

And it's also the models.

 

Vanguard are blinded up to look like veterans, assault marines are not.

[TheNewman]

 

 

 

Merge them back with VVs they have had power weapons and fists and there’s no reason they shouldn’t now, except that for a while in 1999 they pretended were reducing the amount of wargear in the game.

 

They don’t exactly need extra marine kits these days, since primaris keep getting releases. That Reddit AMA by a dev explicitly said it they invented VVs because they were instructed to make extra boxes for the release at the time. that was 16 years ago, it’s ok to merge them back together.

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

That's only really true when the options don't completely overlap, but outside of Flamers there isn't anything in the Assault Marine kit that a VV can't take. ...well, maybe the Executioner Blade but that's a really easy translation to a Relic Blade, Master Crafted Chainsword, or Teeth of Terra.

Plus eviceretors.

 

And it's also the models.

 

Vanguard are blinded up to look like veterans, assault marines are not.

"Yeah! What'd I say?" - Jonny Bravo.

 

Yeah, I meant Evicerators. That's just a big chainsword, at tabletop difference it's barely distinguishable from the normal ones. Honestly VVs aren't so blinged up that a trip to the bits-box can't make up the difference.

[Charlo]

But you aren't talking about a bits box!

 

It's about an entire kit!

[TheNewman]

But you aren't talking about a bits box!

 

It's about an entire kit!

Sure, just building the kits out of the box VVs are going to be distinguishable from the AMs just on the amount of bling they're carrying.

 

That doesn't change that there are only a couple of things in the AM kit that a VV couldn't legally be armed with, or that VVs make AMs a functionally obsolete unit, or that it doesn't take many bits from elsewhere to make VVs out of AMs. The AMs need to be able to do things that the VVs don't do better to be worth looking at, and that can't happen without looking outside the current kit regardless.

 

Give AMs access to the rest of the special weapons and also Heavy Flamers and now it's a conversation, but since that isn't going to happen then whether to roll them into a single datacard with the VVs is a valid thing to consider.

Edited September 21, 2021 by TheNewman

[Blindhamster]

surely VV SHOULD just be better AM, but the costings should make it so they are not an auto take. Frankly VV should be a lot more expensive than they are now. All jump infantry should have a rule like Inceptors for charing and causing mortal wounds - if AM were cheap enough vs VV then a niche they'd then have would be that they can cause quite some damage due to their relative numbers impacting with targets relative to VV, whilst VV would need to rely on their loadouts to deal their damage.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was just thinking that maybe replacing flamers with hand flamers in their wargear list would be a big boost. A small change with a large effect.

I don't think so really. I think Blood Angels ASM units can take both plasma guns and plasma pistols...and neither see the table. Even the fast-moving melta- ASM Blood Angels have access to for ~100pts is eclipsed by 2 MM attack bikes, which are faster, tougher and meltier.

BA don’t get any special options for units in the main codex

Yes they do. Hand flamers, inferno pistols, meltas on ASM units (via FAQ).

oh when did that happen?

 

The only FAQ/errata for BA and ASMs I’m seeing says nothing about hand flamers

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ahfwKGINAYViDr8B.pdf

No errata for hand flamers as they're already in the SM codex from day one.

theyre not an option for assault marines though

[BloodyB]

For my money, simply giving them the Meltabomb strat for free could make them very interesting on the field. It wouldn't make them instantly viable, but the ability to just take D6 mortal wounds from a heavy hitting unit can be a very useful ability. A small reduction in points could be nice too. Bringing them to 1pt more than a tac marine seems fair. I would also say that VV are a little undercosted for what they are.

 

A hammer of wrath type buff for all would make sense, but giving a cheap squad the ability to throw out mortal wounds just for reaching combat seems unlikely, especially given how easily BA can get them there. Making the strat score mortals on a 4+ automatically could make it a lot more viable, I don't usually pop the strat unles I desperately need the help or have managed to get all 10 marines in range, since not many low toughness units are especially hard to kill with chains words, or even just punching. Popping the strat on marines is ok, but against deathguard or wraiths etc, the strat quickly stops being as good as it should be, especially when I need those CP for charge rerolls and such.

 

Giving assault marines an equivalent to the reivers shock grenades hits that line between fluffy and useful. It doesn't exactly break the game, but GW is unlikely to stab there favourite models in the back like that. Maybe a strat to fall back and charge again? Rather OP for BA, but considering how lacklustre our strata are, I think we could use this one.

 

I will say, taking ten guys stock, with whirlwind of rage, unleash rage and savage echoes is pretty good for turning hordes into chunky salsa. Necrons especially really suffer under this method. When that happens, I don't feel quite as disappointed by their performance.

 

So one bit of advice that will definitely make you feel better about assault marines is this: Kill something that is pretty tough with them, it won't make them better, but it is a lot of fun.

[MegaVolt87]

1+ for assault marines moving to troops. Also +1 for raptors moving to troops for CSM. 

[Medjugorje]

at least one unit can get Obsec instead thrown into Troopchoice.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think once I finish my VVs I’ll go and get another box of ASMs and run a unit of 10 with 2 flamers and 2 eviscerators.

[Chaplain Augustus]

Vox initiated. Give them obsec. End transmission.

[Tokugawa]

GW obsoleted the "xxx subfaction could bring yyy non-troop unit as troops" designs now. But this function still could be achieved by giving obsec.

 

If they are not troops or obsec, then they are strictly worse version of vanguard.

[Karhedron]

If they are not troops or obsec, then they are strictly worse version of vanguard.

I don't mind them being worse than VanVets if they are pointed correctly. Being just 1 point cheaper basically makes them obsolete. Take them down to 15-16 ppm and you have a unit that is worth considering for cheap and mobile chaff clearing.

[Warhead01]

Disregard this.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Warhead01

[Brother Casman]

 

[snip]

No errata for hand flamers as they're already in the SM codex from day one.

theyre not an option for assault marines though

 

Blood Angels Assault Marine Sergeants can take hand flamers - check the Pistols list of the Space Marine Codex.

[Captain Idaho]

I think he's talking on a wider level rather than BA specific.