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Khorne Daemonkin, why did GW drop them?


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#1
Ulfast

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Hello fellow daemon players.

 

Yesterday I found my old codex of Khorne daemonkin and had a fun reread of it. So much flavour and intersting mechanic and it made me wonder, why did GW scrap the army? It was a intersting army with mix of daemons and regular chaos space marine unit with the bloodtithe that made the army unique. The same mechanic is today used by several armies in AoS so why did GW not stick with it in 40k? 

 

I would love to get them back as it would bring something new and intersting to modern 40k. But what did you think bout the daemonkin and do anyone know why GW let them go?


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#2
Halandaar

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An army list which is essentially a heavily restricted selection of units from two or more existing Codexes is usually the sort of thing that gets included in a supplement or a White Dwarf. Daemonkin having a Codex in it's own right was a bit of an oddity, even at the time, so it probably didn't get carried forward because it didn't match the direction they were going.

 

All this said, both Death Guard and Thousand Sons have since become pseudo-Daemonkin books which include Daemon units alongside the Astartes ones, so I would be at all surprised if the inevitable future World Eaters Codex takes a lot of inspiration from Khorne Daemonkin.


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#3
Noserenda

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Daemonkin as i recall was an artefact of the rules at the time, intended to bring Khorne in line ability/power wise with the other chaos gods without just giving them psykers. You can just run those units together now if you want anyway and the surely upcoming World Eaters book will probably add some random crunch on top too ;) 



#4
Closet Skeleton

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The Khorne Daemonkin book existed for only 1 purpose, selling 40k players the plastic multi-option bloodthirster released for Warhammer Fantasy Battle End times.

 

7th ed gave summoning in 40k a bad name and 8th ed had a packed schedule to get out all the codexes so no space for a bonus book based on a hated mechanic.

 

The Daemonkin fluff represented a Khorne faction that were not explicitly World Eaters and 8th ed chaos had a big focus on returning the staring role to the main traitor legions. The Brazen Beasts renegade warband showed up again in spite of being originally introduced as a Daemonkin band but kept only their daemon engine specialisation.


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#5
Tallarn Commander

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KDK sure were fun. I suppose in friendly casual games you could recreate a 9th edition ruleset for Blood Tithe.

Although you can no longer earn Blood Tithe points by issuing challenges. In this edition you would only earn points by killing or losing units so the cost of the buffs and units would probably have to be lowered.


Edited by Tallarn Commander, 21 September 2021 - 05:18 PM.

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#6
Putrid Choir

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Not to split hairs, but the daemons (datasheets) were only in the 8th edition codexes for DG and TS, and they never even had the faction keyword. The new world eater book will be far closer to the DG and TS codexes than the Daemonkin, and will not include khorne daemons in the list short of things like Daemon engines and possessed.

#7
Xenith

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All this said, both Death Guard and Thousand Sons have since become pseudo-Daemonkin books which include Daemon units alongside the Astartes ones, so I would be at all surprised if the inevitable future World Eaters Codex takes a lot of inspiration from Khorne Daemonkin.

 

TS book doesn't have daemons in it, and I'm pretty sure DG doesn't either - they were only in for summoning stuff I think anyway, as inclusion of them pretty much invalidated the army rules. 

 

The Khorne Daemonkin book existed for only 1 purpose, selling 40k players the plastic multi-option bloodthirster released for Warhammer Fantasy Battle End times.

 

I'd agree there.


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#8
Halandaar

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TS book doesn't have daemons in it, and I'm pretty sure DG doesn't either - they were only in for summoning stuff I think anyway, as inclusion of them pretty much invalidated the army rules. 

 

Not to split hairs, but the daemons (datasheets) were only in the 8th edition codexes for DG and TS, and they never even had the faction keyword. 

 

My bad, they were in the 8th Edition books so I figured that had carried over.


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#9
techsoldaten

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Hello fellow daemon players.

 

Yesterday I found my old codex of Khorne daemonkin and had a fun reread of it. So much flavour and intersting mechanic and it made me wonder, why did GW scrap the army? It was a intersting army with mix of daemons and regular chaos space marine unit with the bloodtithe that made the army unique. The same mechanic is today used by several armies in AoS so why did GW not stick with it in 40k? 

 

I would love to get them back as it would bring something new and intersting to modern 40k. But what did you think bout the daemonkin and do anyone know why GW let them go?

 

My best, wild guess: Daemonkin was a test.

 

Blood Tithe was a prototype of Legion Traits, to be used in another form in 8th edition.

 

We will see it again with Codex World Eaters.



#10
Ulfast

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I can understand the reason for GW to sell some more minatures to khorne players in 40k (if you very chaos marine player you could buy more daemons and if you where a chaos daemon player you could buy chaos marine stuff) but I do like the background very much behind daemonkin as I think chaos should be so much more then onle traitor legions. Also I liked the blood tithe and think it was a very intersting and flavour full mechanic that is now missing in 9:ed. 



#11
Closet Skeleton

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Hello fellow daemon players.

 

Yesterday I found my old codex of Khorne daemonkin and had a fun reread of it. So much flavour and intersting mechanic and it made me wonder, why did GW scrap the army? It was a intersting army with mix of daemons and regular chaos space marine unit with the bloodtithe that made the army unique. The same mechanic is today used by several armies in AoS so why did GW not stick with it in 40k? 

 

I would love to get them back as it would bring something new and intersting to modern 40k. But what did you think bout the daemonkin and do anyone know why GW let them go?

 

My best, wild guess: Daemonkin was a test.

 

Blood Tithe was a prototype of Legion Traits, to be used in another form in 8th edition.

 

We will see it again with Codex World Eaters.

 

Blood Tithe showed up again in AoS where matched play summoning will probably be trapped for a long time.

 

I'm coincidentally taking a mixed World Eaters/Khorne army to a narrative event at the weekend so will be able to summon in a more boring fashion and see if its over-powered or not.



#12
Karhedron

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Warzone Charadon 2 features the armies of Belakor which can mix daemons and CSM. I haven't seen it to know how it works in practice but it seems a nice way to get back to the mixed Chaos armies of yore.
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#13
Irate Khornate

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Warzone Charadon 2 features the armies of Belakor which can mix daemons and CSM. I haven't seen it to know how it works in practice but it seems a nice way to get back to the mixed Chaos armies of yore.

In practice you're better off just taking two detachments, one of CSM and the other of Daemons.
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#14
Bloody Legionnaire

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I don’t know about you all but the introduction of “armies of renown” gives me hope we could see Khorne Daemonkin again in one way or another. It at least demonstrates GW is offering specialized formations with certain levels of restrictions and include specific formation benefits.

I definitely think KDK is easier to see in 9th than in 8th

#15
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I can understand the reason for GW to sell some more minatures to khorne players in 40k (if you very chaos marine player you could buy more daemons and if you where a chaos daemon player you could buy chaos marine stuff) but I do like the background very much behind daemonkin as I think chaos should be so much more then onle traitor legions. Also I liked the blood tithe and think it was a very intersting and flavour full mechanic that is now missing in 9:ed. 

You would have loved the 2nd ed dex then. Each god had similar mechanics for summoning, depending on wounds taken, saves failed etc... Those were wild times... 


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#16
Closet Skeleton

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I don’t know about you all but the introduction of “armies of renown” gives me hope we could see Khorne Daemonkin again in one way or another. It at least demonstrates GW is offering specialized formations with certain levels of restrictions and include specific formation benefits.

I definitely think KDK is easier to see in 9th than in 8th

Khorne Daemonkin as an army of renown would make sense, but:

 

1. No Army of Renown has been a revisiting of an old concept.

 

2. Summoning is probably something GW want to get rid of and would be too powerful as an army of renown ability.



#17
Irate Khornate

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As odd as this sounds I believe they were trying to go for this concept with Be'lakors army of renown. However the execution failed miserably when it was revealed the AOR keyword is not a faction keyword. Plus no daemon engines/greater daemons was pretty silly.

#18
Bloody Legionnaire

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I don’t know about you all but the introduction of “armies of renown” gives me hope we could see Khorne Daemonkin again in one way or another. It at least demonstrates GW is offering specialized formations with certain levels of restrictions and include specific formation benefits.

I definitely think KDK is easier to see in 9th than in 8th

Khorne Daemonkin as an army of renown would make sense, but:

 

1. No Army of Renown has been a revisiting of an old concept.

 

2. Summoning is probably something GW want to get rid of and would be too powerful as an army of renown ability.

 

Sorry, I really can’t agree with you on summoning. The actual process of summoning is substantially easier to succeed with than it’s been in the past few editions. I don’t see any indication GW wants to get rid of summoning. The gaming community has seen fit to lump it in with narrative play because taking a detachment of Daemons has been deemed the “superior” or “competitive” way to play CSM and Daemons.

 

The rules for Daemonkin in shadow spear also gave rules which increase the likelihood of successful summoning.. What actual indications do you have GW wants to throw out summoning?


Edited by Bloody Legionnaire, 09 May 2022 - 01:05 PM.


#19
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Oh how I miss it. My favorite codex of all time, I think. Seems like new model ranges are the only things that generate new codices these days, and it probably wasn’t massively successful in terms of book sales. (Says the shmuck who bought the LE codex).
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#20
Closet Skeleton

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I don’t see any indication GW wants to get rid of summoning. The gaming community has seen fit to lump it in with narrative play because taking a detachment of Daemons has been deemed the “superior” or “competitive” way to play CSM and Daemons.

 

The rules for Daemonkin in shadow spear also gave rules which increase the likelihood of successful summoning.. What actual indications do you have GW wants to throw out summoning?

 

Slaanesh Infernal Enrapturess came out after Shadowspear and affected summoning but those are 8th ed rules, 9th ed books have removed references to summoning.

 

Detachments are not the 'superior' way to include the odd daemon unit since they cost CP in 9th. Its more that mixing Daemons and regular marines isn't competative.



#21
Dr_Ruminahui

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While the CP cost of detachments (rather than a CP gain as last edition) changes the calculation somewhat, I'm not sure its enough to actually make summoning the better option.

 

Benefits of summoning vs. detachment

 

1.  Doesn't cost CP.

2.  Flexibility of being able to bring onto the unit you need, rather than having to decide before the game.

3.  Units to be summoned can't be targeted until they come onto the table, and don't cost CP to hold them off the table.

4.  For armies that have such a rule, summoning demons doesn't take away any rules that require your entire army to be from the same codex (which is only relevant, I think, for Thousand Suns and Death Guard - CSM don't have any such rules yet).

 

 

Drawbacks of summoning vs. detachment

 

1.  Summoning is tied to your characters, which means that if the character isn't on the table (as reserves or being dead), you can't summon.

2.  Summoning is tied to your characters but still has to follow the 9 inch rule for deep striking, which may limit where you can bring them in (there may not be enough space near your character where you want the demons to come in, or your character may not be where you want the demons.

3.  Summoning is only possible if your character stays still.

4.  Summoning can fail.

5.  Summoning can injure/kill your character.

6.  Units that aren't summoned yet can't draw fire or act as screens.

7.  Summoned demons can't benefit from relics, stratagems or loci from the demon codex, as all require a demon detachment.

8.  Most demon units are best in melee, and a 9" charge without strategems and with the new reroll rule (most reroll both dice of charge roll) is difficult.

 

 

Personally, for me #3 on the draw backs is still the biggest reason not to summon demons - generally you want your characters to be mobile and requiring them to stay in one place for however many turns you want to summon is a huge drawback.  That said, I think if you have a really good understanding of what the capabilities and strengths are of the various demon units and the holes they fill in your army list, I think a skilled player can get a real advantage from using summoning - certainly I've read about tourney armies using summoning to succeed, but I don't think I have the knowledge or skill to do so myself.

 

And yes, there is also the question of whether mixing demons in with your marines is worth it at all.  I haven't really given much thought of that, though I suspect there are some lists that would benefit from being able to include some of the best demon units (for example, a melee emperor's children list might benefit from bringing in some of the better slanneshi demon units like keeper of secrets and fiends) even at a CP cost.


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 10 May 2022 - 05:12 PM.

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#22
Tallarn Commander

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I agree with you that # 3 is personally the biggest reason not to summon. This is why I prefer to summon using my Renegades and Heretics Chaos Militia. They have a zillion characters running around and I don't care if a crappy Enforcer or Renegade Comnander dies to a summon.

I'd like to add a #9: player must remember to summon Daemons. 😀 In 8th and 9th I've often left a squad of Furies, Plaguebearers, or Khorne Hounds in reserve because I forgot to summon them. D'oh!
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#23
Dr_Ruminahui

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Well, given that people forget to bring units they leave in reserves as well, I think that's largely a wash between the two - I don't know if its easier to forget a unit you've put into reserves (which I admit I've done), or to buy one out of points that you have set aside to do so.  

 

Where I do see forgetting as a negative for summoning is that its easy to forget that you want to summon and then move your character so that you are unable to summon that turn, and then to do that again the next turn... I can easily see myself doing that. sweat.gif


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 11 May 2022 - 04:07 AM.

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#24
Closet Skeleton

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From what I've seen the value in mixing marines and daemons together is to add powerful vehicles like Plague Burst Crawlers and Contemptor Dreadnoughts into a Daemon army. Since the army is majority Daemons and Marines aren't summonable, that's why detachments are used. What the best way to include daemon units in a marine army is irrelevant to daemon players but they might want summoning for other reasons.



#25
Dr_Ruminahui

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Well, the thread is about demonkin, which were khorne marines with khorne demons in the same army (and which, I understand, were usually marine rather than demon focused), and given many demon players also play chaos space marines, I would say that the question of summoning vs detachments is relevant to demon players as well.

 

That said, you make a good point as to detachments being the only way to bring chaos marine units (of whatever flavour) into a predominantly demon army.  Only example I've seen (other than the nurgle example given) is bringing in a chaos space marine demon prince in for access to warp time.

 

An argument can be said for bringing in units like chaos hellbrutes or marines for some antitank, shooting or even some more durable objective takers, though I'm not certain if they are worth the points they would take away from demon army.


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