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Thoughts on faction-locked non-character units?


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#26
Reinhard

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I'm for some chapter exclusivity. Some things don't really make sense for just one chapter to have (is blood angels really the only chapter that value their witches enough to put them in dreadnoughts?, thats probably one of the oddest exclusivities)

 

Some things I feel should be limited to perhaps a few chapter, like biker characters and such should be fully available to White scars as well as the ravenwing.

 

Very chapter specific units should stay exclusive to them.

 

wolf cavalry shouldn't exist at all since bikes do (:P


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#27
phandaal

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Wasn't veteran bikers just a marine thing before they went to legends? Not certain that's the best example, as it used to be so.

 

Maybe we're all thinking of different things. For me, Ravenwing are something different than just your average veteran biker. They're a special formation within the chapter and they have special rules to reflect that. Not every chapter should get that, but some should get their own version (White Scars being the only other one that comes to mind).

 

If we're talking about Space Marines who happen to be extra fighty on bikes then yeah, don't see why they shouldn't be a part of any chapter that uses bikes.


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#28
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Wasn't veteran bikers just a marine thing before they went to legends? Not certain that's the best example, as it used to be so.

 

Maybe we're all thinking of different things. For me, Ravenwing are something different than just your average veteran biker. They're a special formation within the chapter and they have special rules to reflect that. Not every chapter should get that, but some should get their own version (White Scars being the only other one that comes to mind).

 

If we're talking about Space Marines who happen to be extra fighty on bikes then yeah, don't see why they shouldn't be a part of any chapter that uses bikes.

 

We're thinking of the same thing. I was just mentioning that there actually was veteran datasheets for bikers in the past, like Wolf Guard on bike and all.



#29
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Wasn't veteran bikers just a marine thing before they went to legends? Not certain that's the best example, as it used to be so.

what edition were veteran bikers? I don’t remember them at all from 3-5th

I'm for some chapter exclusivity. Some things don't really make sense for just one chapter to have (is blood angels really the only chapter that value their witches enough to put them in dreadnoughts?, thats probably one of the oddest exclusivities)

Some things I feel should be limited to perhaps a few chapter, like biker characters and such should be fully available to White scars as well as the ravenwing.

Very chapter specific units should stay exclusive to them.

wolf cavalry shouldn't exist at all since bikes do (:P)

I think it’s simply meant to represent that BA have a bit higher occurrence of psykers than most chapters, and so I’m fine with Libby dread being an exclusive unit
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#30
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Wasn't veteran bikers just a marine thing before they went to legends? Not certain that's the best example, as it used to be so.

what edition were veteran bikers? I don’t remember them at all from 3-5th

 

There's a company veteran on bike unit in legends for Codex: Space Marines. I didn't play much in 7th, and I only played Space Wolves then, but there were Wolf Guard on Bike as the main thing I remember.



#31
Djangomatic82

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I think there's two things going on really.

First, from the OP's reference to feeling the need to switch armies in order to stay viable because of faction locked units, that sounds like FOMO. Really, almost every army has at least one  proven viable tournament winning archetype. It would seem better to change ones list to that, instead of trying to homogenize armies with unique and play style defining unit options.

Second, I partly agree that there is archetype overlap between a few chapters, such as the Raven wing and White Scars bikers, or Blood Angels and Raven Guard use of Jump Pack infantry. But I disagree that that shared affinity for particular unit types mean they SHOULD have the same unit options. Personally, I think the Company Veterans squad options of jump packs and bikes should be taken out of Legends, just like the SM Captain on Bike was for 9th, and given to DA/WS and BA/RG respectively. I dont think DA having raven wing or BA having DC should disqualify them from having their respective company vets, because each is play style appropriate AND does not equate the Faction Locked unit, one for one. Company Veterans on Bike are not better or worse than Raven Wing Black knights, they are different and fill different roles. Just like CV w.JP's are not better or worse than DC or SG, they just do a different job in the battle plan .


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#32
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

Edited by TheNewman, 24 September 2021 - 09:39 PM.

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#33
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 24 September 2021 - 10:02 PM.

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#34
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.

 

Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )


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#35
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.
Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )
you can’t be serious right now.
Are you really trying to compare centurions with dreadnoughts?
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#36
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.
Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )
you can’t be serious right now.
Are you really trying to compare centurions with dreadnoughts?

 

I mean how fast is fast enough ?  And I feel it works. Dreads aren't as fast as Speeders, so where is your qualifier for fast enough? Frankly I delight at the idea of assault centurions delivered into the center of the enemy from a Stormraven, dropped onto elevated terrain in such a way to create a shorter charge distance via some weird loophole in the rules.
Your saying they aren't fast enough and I think that's silly is all. Even if it isn't worth the points I feel this is very fluffy for the BA's.  Maybe BA's are more than you imagine they are so some of these other Codex Space Marines units are fine.  It's perfectly reasonable for you to think it's reticules and or unfluffy.  
I guess the flip side might be if BA's shouldn't have Centurions then maybe other chapters shouldn't have Stormravens. Being as it used to be a BA locked vehicle. 
 


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#37
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.
Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )
you can’t be serious right now.
Are you really trying to compare centurions with dreadnoughts?

Assault Centurions maybe. They're not dreadfully priced and if you have any way to make a charge from Reserves more reliable they'll obliterate most tough things in melee and their shooting is pretty good against anything else.

#38
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.
Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )
you can’t be serious right now.
Are you really trying to compare centurions with dreadnoughts?
I mean how fast is fast enough ? And I feel it works. Dreads aren't as fast as Speeders, so where is your qualifier for fast enough? Frankly I delight at the idea of assault centurions delivered into the center of the enemy from a Stormraven, dropped onto elevated terrain in such a way to create a shorter charge distance via some weird loophole in the rules.
Your saying they aren't fast enough and I think that's silly is all. Even if it isn't worth the points I feel this is very fluffy for the BA's. Maybe BA's are more than you imagine they are so some of these other Codex Space Marines units are fine. It's perfectly reasonable for you to think it's reticules and or unfluffy.
I guess the flip side might be if BA's shouldn't have Centurions then maybe other chapters shouldn't have Stormravens. Being as it used to be a BA locked vehicle.
it’s not about speed, it’s about role the unit fills in the chapter’s battle doctrine, and what other benefits a unit brings to a chapter.
I was gone for a while, when was the SR locked to BA only?

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 24 September 2021 - 11:25 PM.

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#39
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OP here; I'm not sure what FOMO even means. I build a list for my White Scars and think "ok, but this would run better under DA and then I'd want to swap some of the support pieces for the special versions."

That could very well be FOMO for all I know.

I used to have the same problem with Naaresh when I was playing Skorne in Warmahordes, i really wanted to like him but it didn't seem possible to build a list for him that Xerxis didn't run better.

FOMO means fear of missing out.

If you’re a meta chaser you’ll just have to deal with this.
If you’re not a meta chaser it shouldn’t matter if your army is meta or not.

Honestly though things like centurions don’t make sense for BA who are all about speed and mobility.
Then why let them have Dreadnaughts? But either way both can be dropped on the enemy from a Stormraven, last I checked. (So there's your speed. )
you can’t be serious right now.
Are you really trying to compare centurions with dreadnoughts?
I mean how fast is fast enough ? And I feel it works. Dreads aren't as fast as Speeders, so where is your qualifier for fast enough? Frankly I delight at the idea of assault centurions delivered into the center of the enemy from a Stormraven, dropped onto elevated terrain in such a way to create a shorter charge distance via some weird loophole in the rules.
Your saying they aren't fast enough and I think that's silly is all. Even if it isn't worth the points I feel this is very fluffy for the BA's. Maybe BA's are more than you imagine they are so some of these other Codex Space Marines units are fine. It's perfectly reasonable for you to think it's reticules and or unfluffy.
I guess the flip side might be if BA's shouldn't have Centurions then maybe other chapters shouldn't have Stormravens. Being as it used to be a BA locked vehicle.
it’s not about speed, it’s about role the unit fills in the chapter’s battle doctrine, and what other benefits a unit brings to a chapter.
I was gone for a while, when was the SR locked to BA only?

 

It was locked when it came out so I guess 5th edition, musta been.


 


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#40
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Yes, 5th. The Raven was only available to BA and GK armies at first. When the Storm Talon was released, it in turn was only in the base Marine codex.
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#41
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I dont remember that being faction locked back then. It was a long ago though

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 25 September 2021 - 02:13 AM.

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#42
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You're approaching the situation from the wrong angle. As a Space Marine player, you see that Blood Angels and Dark Angels and White Scars are similar and they all wear power armor and share many models, so why shouldn't you get to easily take BA/DA exclusive units to be competitive?

However, you should treat these different chapters like what they really are: completely separate Imperium factions. You wouldn't complain about your competitive Ork army not being able to take Heldrakes or Hive Tyrants, so as a non-Dark Angels player, you should not be complaining about not being able to take Deathwing, etc.

The fact that the models and armies are so similar and so close yet so far is gravy, it's something that should be cherished and appreciated for its convenience and compatibility, not as a reason to become spoiled or complacent and to be used as a scapegoat as to why your Space Marine faction should get all the shiny toys available to other Space Marine factions as well.

But that's not really accurate. GW muddied the water when they folded BA, DA, SW and DW into the main codex, before that all the vanilla chapters were (and still are I suppose) closer to the situation in Tau or Tyranids or whatever where changing Septs of Hive Fleets changes strats, relics, and special characters and that's about it. Changing from Salamanders to Iron Hands is a similar change at a different magnitude rather than a change in kind. And before that there were more units unique to the vanilla codex that the special chapters couldn't take.

I guess that rather gets to the nub of the matter, whether GW should have gone all-in when they rolled the non-codex-compliant chapters into the main book so they wouldn't have to keep saying "yes you can take the new Marine In-somethings in your BA/SW/DA/DW army, they're Space Marines too, duh", or waited until later in the release schedule so they could do all the Suppliments at once to really differentiate them without causing a revolt in the broader fan base, or added Centurions, Ironclads, and whatever else to the list of units the non-compliant chapters can't take, or kept the non-compliant chapters separate and just admitted that they needed to add "for Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch" to any new SM releases.

I just thought it would make an interesting discussion is all.

 

 

I keep forgetting the non-vanilla chapters are now in the vanilla codex as supplements. That changes things a lot and if someone is newer to the hobby, it makes complete sense to ask that specific question regarding supplement-specific unique models. For the rest of us, 10+ years of mental impressions are going to be hard to change. BA, SW, and DA will always be as different from vanilla SM as GK and DW are for me. I wonder if any real old hands still consider BA/DA brother armies due to their original shared codex.


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#43
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You're approaching the situation from the wrong angle. As a Space Marine player, you see that Blood Angels and Dark Angels and White Scars are similar and they all wear power armor and share many models, so why shouldn't you get to easily take BA/DA exclusive units to be competitive?

However, you should treat these different chapters like what they really are: completely separate Imperium factions. You wouldn't complain about your competitive Ork army not being able to take Heldrakes or Hive Tyrants, so as a non-Dark Angels player, you should not be complaining about not being able to take Deathwing, etc.

The fact that the models and armies are so similar and so close yet so far is gravy, it's something that should be cherished and appreciated for its convenience and compatibility, not as a reason to become spoiled or complacent and to be used as a scapegoat as to why your Space Marine faction should get all the shiny toys available to other Space Marine factions as well.

But that's not really accurate. GW muddied the water when they folded BA, DA, SW and DW into the main codex, before that all the vanilla chapters were (and still are I suppose) closer to the situation in Tau or Tyranids or whatever where changing Septs of Hive Fleets changes strats, relics, and special characters and that's about it. Changing from Salamanders to Iron Hands is a similar change at a different magnitude rather than a change in kind. And before that there were more units unique to the vanilla codex that the special chapters couldn't take.

I guess that rather gets to the nub of the matter, whether GW should have gone all-in when they rolled the non-codex-compliant chapters into the main book so they wouldn't have to keep saying "yes you can take the new Marine In-somethings in your BA/SW/DA/DW army, they're Space Marines too, duh", or waited until later in the release schedule so they could do all the Suppliments at once to really differentiate them without causing a revolt in the broader fan base, or added Centurions, Ironclads, and whatever else to the list of units the non-compliant chapters can't take, or kept the non-compliant chapters separate and just admitted that they needed to add "for Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch" to any new SM releases.

I just thought it would make an interesting discussion is all.

I keep forgetting the non-vanilla chapters are now in the vanilla codex as supplements. That changes things a lot and if someone is newer to the hobby, it makes complete sense to ask that specific question regarding supplement-specific unique models. For the rest of us, 10+ years of mental impressions are going to be hard to change. BA, SW, and DA will always be as different from vanilla SM as GK and DW are for me. I wonder if any real old hands still consider BA/DA brother armies due to their original shared codex.
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#44
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A novel or narrative can justify a specialist unit for any faction really but one way I look at Chapter exclusive units and models is rather just a bit of flavour as a nod to said background fluff.

One example is the Ultramarines Chapter Champion. Every Chapter is likely to have one and thanks to Company Champions having an upgrade entry they all can. What point is the Ultramarines version? Well it's just a nice bit of fluff where he uses paired blades, looks very Romanesque or Greek inspired and he can make you feel like your force has this connection to upper echelon of Command with a slayer of enemy Champions.

Sure his rules are similar, with a single important difference that makes him much stronger against Characters, but really he's just emphasising a character trait or 2 for Ultramarines.

Note this isn't to assume such cool rules shouldn't exist for other Chapters, they absolutely should have units that harken back to their fluff. But space is a premium and GW doesn't want us to Kitbash and only likes rules for models they produce.
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#45
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Biker vets are eighth edition.

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#46
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Biker vets were a thing since 6th edition vanilla codex (at least,can't really remember if they were in 5th, can't go search for the codex now and memory isn't helping) as command squad (what would later be "downgraded" to company veterans)

 

They came around following up on various moves GW made over time to allow you to field a vanilla bike army (see the times where the biker captain let you take bikes as troops)

 

The likely reason everyone but DA lost access to them is simply the fact that when they decided to make a kit for them years later they did so as Ravenwing command squad and so when the "no model=>no rules" thing fell on them it ended applying in a...quirky way, lets' say it that way 

 

Same reason for the biker apothecary since, unlike the oldsmarine biker chaplain, it's still a current model yet it ended being thrown into legend


Edited by Fenriwolf, 25 September 2021 - 06:41 PM.


#47
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You could equip Command Squads with bikes in 5th.
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#48
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Correct but there was no veteran biker squad… those are two different things.

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#49
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Command Squads members were (and still are) Veterans.
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+Corruption of Purpose: Heretic Astartes+
+The Blade Unsheathed: Asuryani+






+AO+ Currently seeking a PhotoShopper to make me a Chaos banner for this signature. +OA+


#50
crazyterran

crazyterran

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 726 posts
  • Faction: Ultramarines

I want Librarian dreads for my Ultramarine Dreadnought force :(


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