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Thoughts on faction-locked non-character units?


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#51
Dracos

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Except for Blindhamster's fair minded insightfulness, it just sounds like more of the Big Four not wanting to share their toys with the other Astartes. Newman you just can't buck 30 years of snowflake mentality. 

 

Trying to compare the differences between a White Scar and a Dark Angel to a Tau and a Tyranid is just proof of a concrete mindset of mine mine mine. 

 

Exceptions for units such as Wulfen and Death Company make sense, whereas Deathwing and Ravenwing definitely do not. The first two are truly unique for mental or physiological reasons. The latter two is simply a matter of equipment and training.  


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#52
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Except for Blindhamster's fair minded insightfulness, it just sounds like more of the Big Four not wanting to share their toys with the other Astartes. Newman you just can't buck 30 years of snowflake mentality.

Trying to compare the differences between a White Scar and a Dark Angel to a Tau and a Tyranid is just proof of a concrete mindset of mine mine mine.

Exceptions for units such as Wulfen and Death Company make sense, whereas Deathwing and Ravenwing definitely do not. The first two are truly unique for mental or physiological reasons. The latter two is simply a matter of equipment and training.

DW/RW being faction locked does make sense though…now should there still be an option for veterans to have bikes? Sure.
Just like sanguinary guard should remain faction locked. If other chapters want their own equivalents give VVs pistols and swords, and paint them all gold.

Chapters of space marines are notoriously insular. It makes sense blood angels would share thr STC for a Baal predator with successors, but chapters guard their right to self govern vigorously so they won’t let anyone force them to share.

I like the SW’s flying Higgins boat, but am I going to cry and throw a fit I can’t have it? No. Same for the DW flier. Same for guilliman.
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#53
phandaal

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Except for Blindhamster's fair minded insightfulness, it just sounds like more of the Big Four not wanting to share their toys with the other Astartes. Newman you just can't buck 30 years of snowflake mentality.

Trying to compare the differences between a White Scar and a Dark Angel to a Tau and a Tyranid is just proof of a concrete mindset of mine mine mine.

Exceptions for units such as Wulfen and Death Company make sense, whereas Deathwing and Ravenwing definitely do not. The first two are truly unique for mental or physiological reasons. The latter two is simply a matter of equipment and training.

DW/RW being faction locked does make sense though…now should there still be an option for veterans to have bikes? Sure.
Just like sanguinary guard should remain faction locked. If other chapters want their own equivalents give VVs pistols and swords, and paint them all gold.

Chapters of space marines are notoriously insular. It makes sense blood angels would share thr STC for a Baal predator with successors, but chapters guard their right to self govern vigorously so they won’t let anyone force them to share.

I like the SW’s flying Higgins boat, but am I going to cry and throw a fit I can’t have it? No. Same for the DW flier. Same for guilliman.
Why can’t I slap wings on him and play the datasheet as sanguinius?

Also, "training" for a Space Marine is based on thousands of years of tradition doing things a certain way combined with intensive psycho-indoctrination. For some chapters, they even go so far as treating the Codex Astartes like a religious text.

They aren't going to try and emulate a non-Codex compliant chapter.
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#54
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Except for Blindhamster's fair minded insightfulness, it just sounds like more of the Big Four not wanting to share their toys with the other Astartes. Newman you just can't buck 30 years of snowflake mentality.

Trying to compare the differences between a White Scar and a Dark Angel to a Tau and a Tyranid is just proof of a concrete mindset of mine mine mine.

Exceptions for units such as Wulfen and Death Company make sense, whereas Deathwing and Ravenwing definitely do not. The first two are truly unique for mental or physiological reasons. The latter two is simply a matter of equipment and training.

DW/RW being faction locked does make sense though…now should there still be an option for veterans to have bikes? Sure.
Just like sanguinary guard should remain faction locked. If other chapters want their own equivalents give VVs pistols and swords, and paint them all gold.

Chapters of space marines are notoriously insular. It makes sense blood angels would share thr STC for a Baal predator with successors, but chapters guard their right to self govern vigorously so they won’t let anyone force them to share.

I like the SW’s flying Higgins boat, but am I going to cry and throw a fit I can’t have it? No. Same for the DW flier. Same for guilliman.
Why can’t I slap wings on him and play the datasheet as sanguinius?
Also, "training" for a Space Marine is based on thousands of years of tradition doing things a certain way combined with intensive psycho-indoctrination. For some chapters, they even go so far as treating the Codex Astartes like a religious text.

They aren't going to try and emulate a non-Codex compliant chapter.
exactly.
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Because they’re different
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#55
phandaal

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Also (not directed at OP because they don't seem to be doing it), some people in this thread seem to think it's all about preserving OP rules for Dark Angels and Blood Angels or something.

I'm old enough to remember when the competitive advice for Dark Angels and our specialist units was "don't play Dark Angels."

And interesting that apparently Black Templars don't fall into the "it's just training, not genetics" category. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how OP their rules are before people start asking why they can't have neophytes and sword brethren in their Salamanders list.
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#56
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Also (not directed at OP because they don't seem to be doing it), some people in this thread seem to think it's all about preserving OP rules for Dark Angels and Blood Angels or something.

I'm old enough to remember when the competitive advice for Dark Angels and our specialist units was "don't play Dark Angels."

And interesting that apparently Black Templars don't fall into the "it's just training, not genetics" category. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how OP their rules are before people start asking why they can't have neophytes and sword brethren in their Salamanders list.

wait…BA are OP? When did this happen?
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#57
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3rd edition.


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#58
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3rd edition.

lol

 

Okay ...

 

No body mentioned OP units as the idea behind this discussion so lets throw the strawman out the plasma vents.

 

I mean seriously the Baal Predator and Librarian Dreadnoughts aren't exactly burning up the meta.

 

 

Oh and the US Marines had MBTs until a year ago so not sure thats a very convincing. You cant slice up a nations military like different Astarte Chapters. A better comparison would be Imperium Factions to different branches of the service.


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#59
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3rd edition.

thats a rather old axe to grind there lol.

They did have a very very brief period of being a bit OP during 5th (I see that as making up for a total lack of book in 4th).

But yeah, in 9th, they... kinda suck. (well, they're still marines and still do averagely well, but they're far from top tier marines)


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#60
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No body mentioned OP units as the idea behind this discussion so lets throw the strawman out the plasma vents.


Alright then, let's toss that "big four just want to keep their toys" and "snowflake mentality" stuff out with it as well.

Bottom line is the chapters are different, and because they are different some of them end up using formations and equipment that the others do not use.
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#61
TheNewman

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No body mentioned OP units as the idea behind this discussion so lets throw the strawman out the plasma vents.

 

I mean seriously the Baal Predator and Librarian Dreadnoughts aren't exactly burning up the meta.

As the thread starter I kind of have to put my hand up and admit that I think the Talon Master is a bit bonkers on it's own merits.  Nothing else really springs to mind though.

 

Even the Black Knights and Ancient in Terminator Armor aren't that good outside the context of Dark Angels; it's Jink, Weapons of the Dark Age, the banner of Duty Eternal, always-on Transhuman, and the DA's silly three-stage super doctrine that bump those things into obnoxious territory.


Edited by TheNewman, 28 September 2021 - 01:23 PM.


#62
Bryan Blaire

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Rather than “take toys from someone else”, why not ask GW for more unique toys for more unique boys?  I know that’s what I’m going to be doing the next time they give us one of those “serious community surveys”.

 

The Marines travesty is that GW released six pre-9th Marine supplements, and out of approximately 380 pages, we got three new characters and one new unit.  The Raven Guard, White Scars, and Ultramarines didn’t even get new characters.

 

All of the unique gene-lines should have gotten some unique units, whether they were some special bike units for the White Scars, some new type of Sneaky-Beakie Vanguard/special ops type unit for the Raven Guard (or even crazier, why not an over the top shadow assault close combat unit), some heavy hammer and anvil unit for the Iron Hands, and some kind of unique siege tank or bastion line element for the Imperial Fists.  Heck, the IF or UM could get a shield wall type unit and it could be made to fit a theme for either.

 

And we may get any of these in a 9th Edition supplement for these gene-lines, but as of right now, anything not BT, BA, DA, or SW is just left in a sub-par place, which does stink - the answer isn’t just “take unique stuff from those and redistribute” though.  The BT seem like they might be the most unique out of anything Primaris, that’s for sure.


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#63
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I'm not sure that the vanilla chapters are actually sub-par compared to the snowflake chapters. If tournament performance is anything to go by then Deathwatch and Iron Hands are tied for the best win rate with Salamanders and White Scars beating out the other three snowflake chapters, and on top-three finishes per-capita Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ultramarines are on par with DAs (and handily beating the other snowflakes) with White Scars blowing everyone else out of the water. WS got nine top-three finishes to the DA's eleven, but they did it with less than half the players.

https://youtu.be/oBAbOZELn9w

Edited by TheNewman, 28 September 2021 - 02:49 PM.

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#64
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Hey I love the third edition rules for BA… Jervis and his WD PDF codex was a real buzz kill for me.

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#65
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And we may get any of these in a 9th Edition supplement for these gene-lines, but as of right now, anything not BT, BA, DA, or SW is just left in a sub-par place, which does stink - the answer isn’t just “take unique stuff from those and redistribute” though.  The BT seem like they might be the most unique out of anything Primaris, that’s for sure.

I think part of this comes from the thought that they were going to make the DA, SW and BA less unique in their 9E supplements, possibly even completely removing entire formations of theirs. When the conversations were originally going on about that merge, most people were wholly convinced that would be the case, but it didn't happen. First rule-wise with the DA getting a real fleshed-out Ravenwing and Deathwing dynamic, and then now with the BT release, it's almost certain that they have entirely no intention of ever doing that.

But that should lead to the question, what can be done for the other chapters, not how can we make those ones lesser.


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#66
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And we may get any of these in a 9th Edition supplement for these gene-lines, but as of right now, anything not BT, BA, DA, or SW is just left in a sub-par place, which does stink - the answer isn’t just “take unique stuff from those and redistribute” though.  The BT seem like they might be the most unique out of anything Primaris, that’s for sure.

I think part of this comes from the thought that they were going to make the DA, SW and BA less unique in their 9E supplements, possibly even completely removing entire formations of theirs. When the conversations were originally going on about that merge, most people were wholly convinced that would be the case, but it didn't happen. First rule-wise with the DA getting a real fleshed-out Ravenwing and Deathwing dynamic, and then now with the BT release, it's almost certain that they have entirely no intention of ever doing that.

But that should lead to the question, what can be done for the other chapters, not how can we make those ones lesser.

 

 

Exactly. There is plenty of lore to support chapters getting their own "thing." Looks like that is the direction GW is headed too.



#67
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I'm not sure that the vanilla chapters are actually sub-par compared to the snowflake chapters.

Then your entire premise from your original post about

…I really don't like feeling pressured to switch factions for competitive play, and the more faction-specific things there are the less it matters what the new hotness is and the less reason there is to buy any supplement beyond the one you actually play. Jumping from WS to DA means buying several key faction-locked units to open their full potential, and going the other way means shelving quite a few units.

is meaningless, because there is very little to no pressure to switch factions for competitive play to get faction-specific things.  Clearly those faction specific things aren’t “doing the work” in competitive play.  msn-wink.gif

 

The entire thought process of “I should get other Chapters’ stuff so I can play better” falls down if the other Chapters’ stuff doesn’t actually do that.  The only benefit to switching factions for competitive play then goes to GW, who makes more money off your purchase of the next supplement and all the new models you have to buy to get the “faction-locked units to open their full potential” - it’s almost like they understand their own marketing system.

 

So then you are left with asking for other Chapters’ stuff out of spite/sour grapes because the five unique gene-lines that should have unique stuff don’t - instead, we should all be asking for more support for the other Chapters - which as phandaal indicated, is the direction it looks like, and hopefully is, where GW is headed.  Let’s make everyone special snowflakes, that way no one is.  msn-wink.gif


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#68
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I'm not sure that the vanilla chapters are actually sub-par compared to the snowflake chapters.

Then your entire premise from your original post about

…I really don't like feeling pressured to switch factions for competitive play, and the more faction-specific things there are the less it matters what the new hotness is and the less reason there is to buy any supplement beyond the one you actually play. Jumping from WS to DA means buying several key faction-locked units to open their full potential, and going the other way means shelving quite a few units.

is meaningless, because there is very little to no pressure to switch factions for competitive play to get faction-specific things. Clearly those faction specific things aren’t “doing the work” in competitive play. msn-wink.gif

The entire thought process of “I should get other Chapters’ stuff so I can play better” falls down if the other Chapters’ stuff doesn’t actually do that. The only benefit to switching factions for competitive play then goes to GW, who makes more money off your purchase of the next supplement and all the new models you have to buy to get the “faction-locked units to open their full potential” - it’s almost like they understand their own marketing system.

So then you are left with asking for other Chapters’ stuff out of spite/sour grapes because the five unique gene-lines that should have unique stuff don’t - instead, we should all be asking for more support for the other Chapters - which as phandaal indicated, is the direction it looks like, and hopefully is, where GW is headed. Let’s make everyone special snowflakes, that way no one is. msn-wink.gif
In my defense I hadn't seen those numbers yet when I posted the topic. I only had my personal experience of having better success stacking defensive debuffs instead of playing into the White Scars' shtick, and Dark Angels being able to stack defensive buffs more easily than anyone else to go on.

And as I've said before in this thread, it's not the DA special units that are the problem.

#69
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Honestly, the main addition I’d bring back is Biker CVets or atleast unlegend them. But still the question:
Is that Unique Units fundamentallt change rje playstyle of the army. Existence of Crusader Squads atleast when properlt statted invalidates Tacticals and Tactical Primaris Equivalent and change how BT play.

So question should be asking is not “I want cool toys”. Is how “new” toys could fundamentallt change that armies manner of play.
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#70
Bryan Blaire

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And as I've said before in this thread, it's not the DA special units that are the problem.

And again, as I have said before in this thread, I would contend it’s not the existence of faction-specific units at all that are the problem.

 

It’s the lack of them for certain factions of Marines, and then compounded by players of those factions either wanting some or being upset that others have them when their chosen faction doesn’t.

 

Seriously, this thread comes down to “But I want cool units too…! cry.gif“ and my statement of “Yeah, everyone should, and everyone should have them.  This is a GW problem.”

 

People have claimed there are no lore reasons for most of these separations or lack of sharing of these units, when in reality, there are lore reasons for many, but people ignore them.  The Baal materials is a key point - it’s been a point of lore for a while now that the BA don’t even deal with the AdMech on sharing those engine elements - that’s a lore reason right there.

 

Whether someone agrees with the lore reasons or not doesn’t matter, nor does it matter if people find them silly or incongruous with the setting - the lore reasons for other Chapters’ special units will be just as contrived (since this is all contrived, being fiction - being contrived is how fiction even exists), but stand just as firm as being lore reasons.


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#71
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In my defense I hadn't seen those numbers yet when I posted the topic. I only had my personal experience of having better success stacking defensive debuffs instead of playing into the White Scars' shtick, and Dark Angels being able to stack defensive buffs more easily than anyone else to go on.

And as I've said before in this thread, it's not the DA special units that are the problem.

 

 

Not a mind reader, but it seems like this thread may have been made because you felt like your chapter choice was sub-par, and would do better if you could include some other chapters' unique units. Failing that, the only other option was to switch chapters entirely.

 

With that in mind, check out some of the top tournament White Scars lists. They do win by playing hard into the White Scars' schtick. Highly mobile smasher units with flanking attacks by supporting units. That playstyle actually cannot be directly matched by other Space Marine chapters because they do not have access to the rules that would enable them to do so.

 

If playing a more defensive style is your thing, it's easy enough to just say your models are from a different chapter. No need to buy a whole new army.


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#72
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Basically it boils down to this for me.

If we give all chapters the same stuff there’s not really any point in having different chapters.
It would be like 3rd edition again for most.

And once unique units are no longer a thing, someone will complain about unique chapter traits and doctrines and will demand that everyone get the same rules.
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#73
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I'm not sure that the vanilla chapters are actually sub-par compared to the snowflake chapters. If tournament performance is anything to go by then Deathwatch and Iron Hands are tied for the best win rate with Salamanders and White Scars beating out the other three snowflake chapters, and on top-three finishes per-capita Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ultramarines are on par with DAs (and handily beating the other snowflakes) with White Scars blowing everyone else out of the water. WS got nine top-three finishes to the DA's eleven, but they did it with less than half the players.

https://youtu.be/oBAbOZELn9w

 

At the moment I'd agree with you for competitive play. I think they are a few clear reasons for this, and I don't think that they scale down well.

 

1) Chapter tactics, Doctrine bonuses, and relics. This is where the vanilla chapters that are succeeding have some large advantages. I really don't like how much the power level varies between the different chapters because of these perks. WS are amazing because of theirs, and IF feel like garbage. As someone who has played for a long time, I don't count on these being permanent so I get that some people under value them or view Scars and Iron hands as being broken rather than thinking they're better than the chapters who had separate books.

 

2) A lot of marines best units are in the vanilla book. Redemptors, VVs, attack bikes, and the primaris chaplain on a bike are just some of the highlights of the vanilla book that show up in a ton of competitive lists. On the competitive side I think this does a lot to even out their winning percentages. That said the internal balance of the vanilla book... is bad. If you aren't running the top shelf units an army with chapter specific options is going to be stronger.

 

3) Vanilla book upgrades like chapter command making for really powerful generic options. I really like them, though some of them may be a little too good at the moment but I hope they stick with it. For the most part these are the best options for HQs and I think that helps balance out the different chapters. This probably the perk that scales the best because people like making their HQs.

 

I do think adding special units for the chapters that don't have them is a better solution overall, but I think there is still room for some good vanilla options like a CC vet bike squad that help multiple chapters at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#74
TheNewman

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In my defense I hadn't seen those numbers yet when I posted the topic. I only had my personal experience of having better success stacking defensive debuffs instead of playing into the White Scars' shtick, and Dark Angels being able to stack defensive buffs more easily than anyone else to go on.

And as I've said before in this thread, it's not the DA special units that are the problem.

Not a mind reader, but it seems like this thread may have been made because you felt like your chapter choice was sub-par, and would do better if you could include some other chapters' unique units. Failing that, the only other option was to switch chapters entirely.

With that in mind, check out some of the top tournament White Scars lists. They do win by playing hard into the White Scars' schtick. Highly mobile smasher units with flanking attacks by supporting units. That playstyle actually cannot be directly matched by other Space Marine chapters because they do not have access to the rules that would enable them to do so.

If playing a more defensive style is your thing, it's easy enough to just say your models are from a different chapter. No need to buy a whole new army.
I posted it for exactly the reasons I gave; I'm of two minds on the subject and I was curious what other people thought.

Of course the deeper reason is Socratic Method. Put it out there, argue about it, see what sticks and what falls away.

I think what bugs me is that GW rolled the snowflakes into the main codex but half-arsed it, neither maintaining all the preexisting Vanilla exclusives nor moving a few of the obvious units into the main codex, nor even foreshadowing that "Vanilla" would mean less by the time everyone had a new Supplement.

Edited by TheNewman, 28 September 2021 - 07:53 PM.


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phandaal

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I think what bugs me is that GW rolled the snowflakes into the main codex but half-arsed it, neither maintaining all the preexisting Vanilla exclusives nor moving a few of the obvious units into the main codex, nor even foreshadowing that "Vanilla" would mean less by the time everyone had a new Supplement.

 

 

The main chapters have all had their own supplement separate from the consolidated Space Marines codex for years now now. When you say "snowflakes," which chapters specifically do you mean?






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