Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Thoughts on faction-locked non-character units?


  • Please log in to reply
117 replies to this topic

#76
Dracos

Dracos

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,542 posts
  • Location:Indiana, USA
  • Faction: Primaris Warhawks

Basically it boils down to this for me.

If we give all chapters the same stuff there’s not really any point in having different chapters.
It would be like 3rd edition again for most.
 

 

That's not a great argument against "shared tech" and "training". 3rd edition was a Golden Age.

 

 

 

"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.


Edited by Dracos, 28 September 2021 - 08:42 PM.

Hope is a moment now long past, the Shadow of Death is the one I cast
sml_gallery_7985_14167_21284.pnggallery_48988_10069_135.pnggallery_48988_15465_8206.png gallery_87434_12256_5320.png sml_gallery_7985_15940_5720.jpg
9e Raven Guard : 11 - 1
Crusade : 12 - 8- 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2

#77
phandaal

phandaal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 623 posts
  • Location:Plains World

 

"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.

 

 

What about Black Templars?



#78
Black Blow Fly

Black Blow Fly

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 17,209 posts
  • Location:Unto realms immortal...
  • Faction: TODESKOMPANIE

Chapters that have unique units:

Black Templars

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

Grey Knights *

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Salamanders

Space Wolves

Ultramarines


=][= fortis Fortuna adiuvat . =][=

my 40k FB Page Terminus Est: https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est
Blood and Honor!


#79
Dracos

Dracos

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,542 posts
  • Location:Indiana, USA
  • Faction: Primaris Warhawks

:) What about Black Templars?

 

Those poor boys are part of what made 3e so special and then GW practically squatted them for the next 6 editions from the looks of it (I was gone during 6 and 7th) ... and ... and ... lol ... Land Raider Crusader. See shared technology (heck even the Emperor Champon was available for a while for everyone) :)


Hope is a moment now long past, the Shadow of Death is the one I cast
sml_gallery_7985_14167_21284.pnggallery_48988_10069_135.pnggallery_48988_15465_8206.png gallery_87434_12256_5320.png sml_gallery_7985_15940_5720.jpg
9e Raven Guard : 11 - 1
Crusade : 12 - 8- 1
Imperial Knights : 3 - 2

#80
phandaal

phandaal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 623 posts
  • Location:Plains World

Black Templars weren't squatted - they were one of the few chapters with their own codex for many years until 6th ed. (I think) rolled them up. Even then they had their special Crusader Squads.

 

Hell, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't even have their own codexes until 3rd ed.

 

Want to establish what makes a chapter a "snowflake" worthy of having its units sent over to other chapters, since it doesn't have anything to do with being powerful or not.


  • Black Blow Fly likes this

#81
TheNewman

TheNewman

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 369 posts



I think what bugs me is that GW rolled the snowflakes into the main codex but half-arsed it, neither maintaining all the preexisting Vanilla exclusives nor moving a few of the obvious units into the main codex, nor even foreshadowing that "Vanilla" would mean less by the time everyone had a new Supplement.

The main chapters have all had their own supplement separate from the consolidated Space Marines codex for years now now. When you say "snowflakes," which chapters specifically do you mean?
I thought everyone knew what that meant. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch, the four chapters that had distinct codexes separate from Codex: Space Marines in 8th and that have a significant number of unique units.

Edit: To my surprise that appears to not be the consensus.

Edited by TheNewman, 28 September 2021 - 10:46 PM.


#82
MegaVolt87

MegaVolt87

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,408 posts
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem. dry.png


  • Bryan Blaire, Sarvis and phandaal like this
gallery_154982_15362_23624.jpg

My Iron Warriors Project   Guns for the guns god!, Bullets for the Brass throne!


#83
phandaal

phandaal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 623 posts
  • Location:Plains World

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem. dry.png

 

It actually does look like GW is working towards giving each of the OG chapters their own cool stuff. So we can keep yelling at clouds here while GW does what they were already going to do anyway! cool.png



#84
tychobi

tychobi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 750 posts
Locked units restrict player creativity. I would love a more creative gaming experience but I am not a good capitalist.

Kill Maim Destroy


#85
TheNewman

TheNewman

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 369 posts

Of course every OG chapter from the first founding should have its own chapter unique(s). They have legion uniques in the HH game, why not in 40k? Its just lazy design from GW and them playing favourites is why some have more than others. The supplements were a wasted opportunity as they didn't introduce enough chapter specific content. The people arguing for de-centralized chapter uniques- seem bitter they got juked with them or something in a game. You all should be more concerned with getting more toys for yourselves than try to rob them from others that have them. Those that have them should band together with those that have not to get them. Pointless infighting here when its as usual GW's engineered problem. dry.png


I don't recall anyone suggesting taking things away from the chapters that already have them. It's not a zero-sum game here, porting Biker Apothecaries to the main book doesn't take them away from Dark Angels.
  • Black Blow Fly likes this

#86
Inquisitor_Lensoven

Inquisitor_Lensoven

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,028 posts
  • Location:C-Bangity
  • Faction: Paenito Angelus, Black Dragons


Basically it boils down to this for me.

If we give all chapters the same stuff there’s not really any point in having different chapters.
It would be like 3rd edition again for most.

That's not a great argument against "shared tech" and "training". 3rd edition was a Golden Age.



"Snowflakes" read as Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Space Wolves. For decades only these Chapters had special units or characters. They're the reason for DIY Chapters such as Blue Angels and Crimson Wolves.
I liked the general rules of 3rd Ed but as far as individuality between chapters there was pretty much nothing.

If you weren’t wolves, DA, blood angels, or BT, there was no distinction between IF and UM. If you weren’t part of the big 4 then the only thing that sets you apart from other chapters was the paint scheme.

It’s just really stupid. Why try to make chapters less unique? Particularly if the locked units are particularly powerful in game…

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 29 September 2021 - 03:51 AM.

  • phandaal likes this
The answer is on the floor -Shihan John Roseberry

#87
Captain Smashy Pants

Captain Smashy Pants

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,428 posts
  • Location:Perth, Australia

Re: Thunderwolfs; swap big wolves for big horses and tell me that doesn't scream White Scars. Not saying that I want such a unit, because I very much do not, but 'marine cav' doesn't need to be inherently a SW thing.

I always thought Sallies should have Giant Salamander riders.


  • Black Blow Fly likes this
gallery_62972_14467_3390.jpggallery_62972_14467_13489.jpggallery_62972_14467_3390.jpg

I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#88
Mandragola

Mandragola

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,711 posts
  • Pronouns:he/him

Ultimately this is an issue that comes from the way GW used to release models. They'd bring out new stuff for any given faction, meaning that there are a bunch of these kits. Some of them, like Wulfen, make sense as being exclusive for those chapters. Others, like librarian dreads or apothecaries on bikes, don't.

 

The reason there's no logic to it is that nobody ever really tried to make any. When doing the BA dread the sculptor thought it would be cool to do a librarian version. As a result there's a librarian dread covered in BA iconography that nobody else has access to. They might have done this with the generic venerable dread instead but they just did other stuff instead. And years later on we're all left with the legacy of these decisions, edition after edition. Currently, pretty much the only people getting put inside the old kind of dreadnought must be injured BA librarians, as otherwise redemptors are the new hotness.


C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should really be painting Crimson Fists.

gallery_48988_15151_9524.pnggallery_45765_12339_6416.pnggallery_48988_16045_14557.pngsml_gallery_48988_16308_6255.png


#89
Black Blow Fly

Black Blow Fly

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 17,209 posts
  • Location:Unto realms immortal...
  • Faction: TODESKOMPANIE
Let’s see BA in third edition has Dante, Lemartes, Mephiston and Corbulo plus Moriar the DC dread for characters. For unique units they had Death Company, Honorguard plus command squad characters that could take jumping packs. And of course don’t forget the Baal predator which was decent back then.

Edited by Black Blow Fly, 29 September 2021 - 10:45 PM.

=][= fortis Fortuna adiuvat . =][=

my 40k FB Page Terminus Est: https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est
Blood and Honor!


#90
Schlitzaf

Schlitzaf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,084 posts
  • Location:Hazeorth Subsector
  • Faction: Black Templar: Dalthus Crusade

:) What about Black Templars?

Those poor boys are part of what made 3e so special and then GW practically squatted them for the next 6 editions from the looks of it (I was gone during 6 and 7th) ... and ... and ... lol ... Land Raider Crusader. See shared technology (heck even the Emperor Champon was available for a while for everyone) :)


This is wrong on so many levels we can debate the actual “competitiveness” of Templars:
But we had, 4.5 Unique Units/Datasheets
Helbrecht
Grimaldus
-Cenos existed locked behind Grimaldus
Emperor’s Champion
Crusader Squad*

(We also had our own Warlord Traits in 7th but memes).

*The Crusader Squad was and is the single best Tactical Equivalent unit in the game bar none. Except Grey Hunters. B/c Hunters had a Bolter&Chain combo. Crusader Squad was effectively 3 Datasheets in one. FauvDevi, a more traditional marine squad and then a Tide Squad.

Furthermore the Crusader Squad was almost a Codex in a Datasheet. We could Faux Devi, giving flexibility at 5 man squads no other chapter had. We could take double power weapons + double special weapons and the squad size fo make these units not utterly garbage. Sense tactical level units for melee had to be 11+ models to be viable or reasonable. And by extension our boys were “efficienct.” We were playing around 12ppm if you setup Crusader Squad correctly.

While our faction trait…was not amazing. It was solid, reroll run rolls gave us a solid mobility. We had a not terrible ability to stop and stop aggressive physic powers. We weren’t amazing but we certainly in terms of actual support not that bad off.

———

In terms of snowflakes: UU are irrelevant. Sounds like a hypocritical I know. What matters is that playstyle of the armies are sufficiently unique. Also you’ll tend to notice armies with loads of snowflakes units tend to have weaker generalistic abilities. Ultramarines and Mars paying the Gulliman and Cawl tax. In that several of their factional traits on the tabletop leave much to be desired.

So instead of wanting “Super Cool Biker because White Scars do super cool biker things” ask instead “If they an unique unit how would it help highlight or support the Scar Hit and Run Playstyle”. I’d support Biker CVets returning non-legend simply to have a generic elite biker unit. But honestly I’d jusr as much say, that if your issue is you feel competitively gimped because White Scars don’t have a super cool biker unit and you feel, that lack thereof of one makes the army unable to portray said Mongolian hit and run tactics. You already can run/fallback and charge.

You have a ton ability to outflank, you have alot of strategems promoting your mobility and more. Also pedantically hou do have a unique biker unit (Khan on Bike).

What would a unique unit do to facilitate a playstyle unable to be achieved already?
PEbafT7.png?1http://www.bolterand...althus-crusade/
Wish List:
BT Crusader Biker- http://www.bolterand...igensian-squad/
BT Primaris Crusaders - (WIP)
"Proper Tool for the Proper Job"

#91
TheNewman

TheNewman

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 369 posts
As the WS player who started the thread I'll freely admit that from a competitiveness perspective Scars don't need any help. If I'm not doing well with them then the problem is with me, their tournament results show that very clearly.

I'd like to be able to field mounted versions of my Chapter leadership for flavor, although I don't see any reason that Outrider Libbys, Captains, Ancients, or Apothecaries should be unique to White Scars. A Primaris Techmarine riding shotgun on an Invader ATV though...

Thinking about it, with Templars getting the pintle Multimelta there are a couple of places where I'd really like to be able to swap rapid fire or heavy guns out for the Assault weapons. In particular WS Outriders would very much like to have the Autobolters instead of the standard Bolt Rifles, although I kind of think Outriders should be equipable with any of the Bolt Rifle variants by default, regardless of Chapter.

I'd actually really like Veteran Outriders in the elite slot too. Even without any additional options over the standard Outriders I'd still take them just for how crowded FA usually feels. If GW were handing out Drukhari-style veteran unit upgrades to Vanilla chapters, then Outriders would be the no-brainer choice for WS.

Edited by TheNewman, 30 September 2021 - 08:50 PM.


#92
Medjugorje

Medjugorje

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,570 posts
  • Location:MUNICH - GERMANY

I dont t

 

As the WS player who started the thread I'll freely admit that from a competitiveness perspective Scars don't need any help. If I'm not doing well with them then the problem is with me, their tournament results show that very clearly.

 

not in our meta. 



#93
Inquisitor_Lensoven

Inquisitor_Lensoven

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,028 posts
  • Location:C-Bangity
  • Faction: Paenito Angelus, Black Dragons
Last 2¢
Every loyalist geneseed should have at least 1-3 named characters and at least 1-2 fluffy unique units or at the very least unique weapon options for vanilla units.

I don’t think death watch deserves anything special or unique however, or anything special they get should simply be available to other inquisition related forces.
The answer is on the floor -Shihan John Roseberry

#94
ChargingSoll

ChargingSoll

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 128 posts
Yeah I think every first founding chapter should have their own unique units and characters that then spread to their successors. They are important to the flavour and view on the chapter maybe some of these currently could be spread to other Chapters.

I reckon give it time as they will only grow the less supported chapters in the future as marines are eternal for GW. Look at black templar's and sisters of battle and how they went from ancient and barely supported to what they have and still to come for them.
  • Helias Tancred likes this

#95
Helias Tancred

Helias Tancred

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,002 posts
  • Faction: Blood Angels & Dark Angels

lol .. I just replied to this sort of concept in another thread. 

 

No. Units should not be homogenized between the marine chapters. There are two types of marine chapters, Codex-Compliant chapters (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc) and Non Codex-Compliant chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars) and those lines should never be removed! They are foundation in the feel and design of the various chapters both in lore, and on the table-top. Its kinda like how in Devastation of Baal Gabriel Seth was worried with the primaris they'd just end up being red ultramarines :)

 

I have spoken ;)


Eilio Tiberius on Instagram

where my hobby pics are kept .... 

 


#96
Blindhamster

Blindhamster

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 7,535 posts
  • Location:Birmingham UK
  • Faction: Blood Angels
Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol
  • Black Blow Fly likes this

Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
Blood Angels 4th company: Wins 10 Draws 3 Losses 4

 

gallery_62972_10568_12006.jpggallery_14877_13354_6399.jpggallery_62972_14467_4048.jpg

Blood Angels Primaris Blog


#97
Iron Father Ferrum

Iron Father Ferrum

    ++ INTERFECTOR PRODITORES ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 6,778 posts
  • Location:NoVA
  • Faction: Iron Hands, Alpha Legion
And Iron Hands are only kinda/sorta-compliant.
  • Black Blow Fly likes this
Posted Image

+Corruption of Purpose: Heretic Astartes+
+The Blade Unsheathed: Asuryani+






+AO+ Currently seeking a PhotoShopper to make me a Chaos banner for this signature. +OA+


#98
Helias Tancred

Helias Tancred

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,002 posts
  • Faction: Blood Angels & Dark Angels

Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

 

It was an honorable attempt and they tried hard :) ,,,,  but the Death Company and the elevated role that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest played in the chapter ... well technically they were not. They are the closest compared to their peers, Space Wolves, Black Templars, or Dark Angels.


Eilio Tiberius on Instagram

where my hobby pics are kept .... 

 


#99
TheNewman

TheNewman

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 369 posts


Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

It was an honorable attempt and they tried hard :) ,,,, but the Death Company and the elevated role that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest played in the chapter ... well technically they were not. They are the closest compared to their peers, Space Wolves, Black Templars, or Dark Angels.
They're also the only chapter to retain jump-pack Terminators. And the ability to put a Librarian in a Dreadnought and have him stay a Librarian.

Not jealous of Libby Dreads, really, I swear.

Edited by TheNewman, 13 October 2021 - 04:09 PM.


#100
Inquisitor_Lensoven

Inquisitor_Lensoven

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,028 posts
  • Location:C-Bangity
  • Faction: Paenito Angelus, Black Dragons

lol .. I just replied to this sort of concept in another thread.

No. Units should not be homogenized between the marine chapters. There are two types of marine chapters, Codex-Compliant chapters (Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc) and Non Codex-Compliant chapters (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars) and those lines should never be removed! They are foundation in the feel and design of the various chapters both in lore, and on the table-top. Its kinda like how in Devastation of Baal Gabriel Seth was worried with the primaris they'd just end up being red ultramarines :)

I have spoken ;)

codex compliant doesn’t mean no special units.
If I remember correctly the blue bois themselves have a unique body guard style unit.

Besides since girlyman came back a lot of the codex astartes has been throw out the window or generally disregarded.

And Seth can bitch all he wants about primaris who at the time hasn’t fallen to either curse, but in the end that’s what Dante, and most sons of sanguinius wanted…was to cure their curses. Honestly that line just seemed like a poor excuse to set up friction…and wasn’t well thought out…it comes of as Seth wanting to remain flawed just for the sake of being different.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 13 October 2021 - 07:42 PM.

  • Black Blow Fly likes this
The answer is on the floor -Shihan John Roseberry




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users