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Thoughts on faction-locked non-character units?


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#101
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Blood angels are canonically codex compliant. Lol

It was an honorable attempt and they tried hard :) ,,,, but the Death Company and the elevated role that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest played in the chapter ... well technically they were not. They are the closest compared to their peers, Space Wolves, Black Templars, or Dark Angels.
I wouldn’t say differing emphasis on roles of the head honchos makes a chapter not codex compliant.
If you remove the thirst and the rage, the blood angels would likely have been 100% codex compliant unlike the sons of Russ or the dark angels, or black templars.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 13 October 2021 - 07:44 PM.

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#102
Bryan Blaire

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There’s a big difference between units being locked (and that being lore supported or not) to a specific faction and unusable by other factions vs. Codex compliant Chapters not getting unique units.  Those are not equivalent concepts and to assert that one is the other is false.

 

Codex compliant Chapters can have unique squad types and still be Codex compliant (see the Ultramarines, per Inquisitor_Lensoven - they actually have two unique units).

 

I went through a run down of other Codex compliant vs. unique units here: http://www.bolterand...y-do/?p=5753227


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#103
WrathOfTheLion

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With BA, DA and SW in particular, there is a level of homogeneity between the disparate chapters that does not extend to the others.

So while Death Company are universal across all IX legion chapters, would a Raven Guard specific unit persist to the Raptors, etc.?

#104
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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With BA, DA and SW in particular, there is a level of homogeneity between the disparate chapters that does not extend to the others.

So while Death Company are universal across all IX legion chapters, would a Raven Guard specific unit persist to the Raptors, etc.?

i would imagine they’d have a genetic affinity for jump infantry like the BA do, or something similar any way.
Or maybe just a corvus guard that can be TDA, footslogging or jump infantry, but their specific thing is they excel with dual lightening claws

There’s a big difference between units being locked (and that being lore supported or not) to a specific faction and unusable by other factions vs. Codex compliant Chapters not getting unique units. Those are not equivalent concepts and to assert that one is the other is false.

Codex compliant Chapters can have unique squad types and still be Codex compliant (see the Ultramarines, per Inquisitor_Lensoven - they actually have two unique units).

I went through a run down of other Codex compliant vs. unique units here: http://www.bolterand...y-do/?p=5753227

id love to see IF getting a bolter version of the blade guard. It would be perfect for primaris, particularly if they were gravis armored with storm shields and heavy bolt rifles
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#105
phandaal

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Also worth noting that Dark Angels are Codex-compliant outside of their 1st and 2nd companies, as are other Unforgiven chapters. Their non-compliant companies are a throwback to Caliban and their time as THE Space Marine legion.

Would actually like to see more non-compliant Dark Angels stuff representing the other "wings" of antiquity.
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#106
Bryan Blaire

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With BA, DA and SW in particular, there is a level of homogeneity between the disparate chapters that does not extend to the others.

So while Death Company are universal across all IX legion chapters, would a Raven Guard specific unit persist to the Raptors, etc.?

Until now, there weren’t any SW disparate Chapters, and the Primaris Wolf Successors really aren’t all that disparate from other Primaris Chapters.

 

As far as the BA and DA, while the BA have Death Company, you have to ask yourself the Why for their Successors having the same structures as their progenitors - we know it isn’t due to the gene-seed, because we have the example of the Swords of Haldroth/Carmine Blades - they lived for an unknown number of years (anywhere from only a couple of hundred if they were 26th Founding all the way to several thousand from prior early findings) believing they were an Ultramarine Successor who “accepted the Blood Angels’ traditions only grudgingly”.  We don’t have any real clue on what their Order of Battle was, or if they preferred jump pack assaults, etc., prior to discovering their Blood Angels connection, but given that they accepted the traditions grudgingly, it’s probable that they didn’t to me - why would you have a hard time accepting something that should come so naturally to you if it’s just baked in.  The Swords of Haldroth didn’t field “Death Company”, that’s for sure - even though they were Successors of the Blood Angels, whether they knew it or not.

 

We know that the DA induct their Successors into the Unforgiven, and their self-assigned tasks regiments their training, structures, etc.

 

Given these two elements, we can (you don’t have to, but it lines up to me) follow logic to the conclusion that it’s training that makes Successors take on similar unit types.

 

So given this, it’s likely that any Raven Guard Successor Chapter that was trained in the ways of battle by the Raven Guard or any other Raven Guard Successor trained by them would get a unit that was similar/identical to a unique on used by the Raven Guard.  Same with the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Salamanders (who, like the Space Wolves, only recently had acknowledged Successors), etc.


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#107
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Given these two elements, we can (you don’t have to, but it lines up to me) follow logic to the conclusion that it’s training that makes Successors take on similar unit types.

 

So given this, it’s likely that any Raven Guard Successor Chapter that was trained in the ways of battle by the Raven Guard or any other Raven Guard Successor trained by them would get a unit that was similar/identical to a unique on used by the Raven Guard.  Same with the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Salamanders (who, like the Space Wolves, only recently had acknowledged Successors), etc.

 

I agree to some extent, but that's not quite how the dynamic currently is. We can see this even in the examples you give, the two unique Ultramarines units are actually not available to their successor chapters in the current ruleset.

 

So the BA in particular organize their Death Company essentially on geneseed, barring some outliers, whilst the DA enforce a legion structure on tradition. The BA have been further reorganized under Dante recently, so that there's some unified command structure there. Both of those drive it that way, essentially maintaining some Legion-level organization against the tenets of the Codex Astartes, but the other Legions currently do not (although one might argue the Ultramarines are starting to). So my point there is that in the current fluff an Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. chapter does not share that bespoke tradition, and so the unique unit would actually be terminal to their first founding chapter unless some reorganization occurs.

 

I'm not opposed to some legion-level reorganization of many chapters fluff-wise, but I do want to explore it that way and show how it's also so in the current rules.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 14 October 2021 - 02:06 AM.


#108
Bryan Blaire

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Sorry, until GW gets around to providing unique stuff for every Chapter in the game (all 1K of them), I feel free to ignore their stupidly written supposed Successor rules - so to me, nothing is terminal.  The Raptors Chapter plays as the Raven Guard, etc.  Rules != fluff, fluff != rules.  If that’s the only argument, we’ll just have to disagree, it holds no traction with me at all - I’ve played this game too long to feel GW will ever write Successors properly in the rules.

 

Successors seem to typically be trained by progenitors/members of their gene-lines, so they’d get some exposure, and likely even training, to unique squads - hence those unique squads wouldn’t be terminal, regardless of the asinine rules GW tries to write.


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#109
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Given these two elements, we can (you don’t have to, but it lines up to me) follow logic to the conclusion that it’s training that makes Successors take on similar unit types.

So given this, it’s likely that any Raven Guard Successor Chapter that was trained in the ways of battle by the Raven Guard or any other Raven Guard Successor trained by them would get a unit that was similar/identical to a unique on used by the Raven Guard. Same with the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Salamanders (who, like the Space Wolves, only recently had acknowledged Successors), etc.

I agree to some extent, but that's not quite how the dynamic currently is. We can see this even in the examples you give, the two unique Ultramarines units are actually not available to their successor chapters in the current ruleset.

So the BA in particular organize their Death Company essentially on geneseed, barring some outliers, whilst the DA enforce a legion structure on tradition. The BA have been further reorganized under Dante recently, so that there's some unified command structure there. Both of those drive it that way, essentially maintaining some Legion-level organization against the tenets of the Codex Astartes, but the other Legions currently do not (although one might argue the Ultramarines are starting to). So my point there is that in the current fluff an Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. chapter does not share that bespoke tradition, and so the unique unit would actually be terminal to their first founding chapter unless some reorganization occurs.

I'm not opposed to some legion-level reorganization of many chapters fluff-wise, but I do want to explore it that way and show how it's also so in the current rules.
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#110
Blindhamster

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If blood angels successors start succumbing to the rage, they start putting them down and hiding the fact they’re doing it till old executioner himself shows up to investigate the disturbance in the force he gets.

That’s literally what happened with the Carmine blades. And actually they DO adopt the full traditions once they understand them (as shown in devastation of Baal).

Sanguinary guard are a tradition thing harkenning back to the heresy, realistically chapters that don’t have those ties probably shouldn’t have sanguinary guard - but then it’s a mess to manage. So everyone gets them.

The Baal predator stc was found by the BA and specifically shared with their successors. It makes no sense to me that with the recent event a at least, they wouldn’t also share it with the admech finally considering the whole primaris thing. But whatever

The librarian dread should be available to everyone, technically also true if the furioso - it’s just a melee load out venerable dread with worse rules these days anyway.

The blood angels have always (at least as far back as 3rd) been noted as having successors that are particularly close due to the unique nature of their curse, so they’re a bad example to look at for how successors work.

DA and their successors all have the whole hunting the fallen thing, presumably that’s the logic for why they all have the shared stuff of Ravenwing and deathwing.

Most other chapters are in typically portrayed as being far more diverse than those two (or they had essentially no successors till recently).


I still think it’s highly unlikely we will see true unique units for the majority of first founding/successors. But I could see the hounds of Morkai treatment with some kind of same as standard but slightly different rules bolter on - perhaps with the opportunity to go a step further if chapters get newer upgrade spruces like the BT ones (and I don’t think that’s a given honestly)
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#111
Djangomatic82

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But I could see the hounds of Morkai treatment with some kind of same as standard but slightly different rules bolter on - perhaps with the opportunity to go a step further if chapters get newer upgrade spruces like the BT ones (and I don’t think that’s a given honestly)

I really like the Hounds of Morkai conceptually. I dont know if they see play, but as a method of introducing unique units to an army without having too create new models, they are pretty dang cool.

I could see it being totally on brand for Imperial Fists to get a Chapter specific datasheet for Heavy Intercessors with the HEAVY rifle option and some special rules. Same for flamestorm agressors and Salamanders, etc...


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#112
WrathOfTheLion

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Sorry, until GW gets around to providing unique stuff for every Chapter in the game (all 1K of them), I feel free to ignore their stupidly written supposed Successor rules - so to me, nothing is terminal.  The Raptors Chapter plays as the Raven Guard, etc.  Rules != fluff, fluff != rules.  If that’s the only argument, we’ll just have to disagree, it holds no traction with me at all - I’ve played this game too long to feel GW will ever write Successors properly in the rules.

 

Successors seem to typically be trained by progenitors/members of their gene-lines, so they’d get some exposure, and likely even training, to unique squads - hence those unique squads wouldn’t be terminal, regardless of the asinine rules GW tries to write.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, and I don't think we actually disagree on so much, more that we hold orthogonal opinions than necessarily opposite opinions. Our opinions are in different frames, and sometimes they will align and sometimes they won't. For example, we discussed Mor Deythan and they would make sense to propagate to all of the XIX Legion successors in the current context, this is a full alignment of opinion.

But, for example, there's no justifiable reason that the Novamarines as a second-founding chapter would have access to Tyrannic War veterans. The Tyrannic wars started almost 10,000 years after the split between the Novamarines and the Ultramarines.

 

So we disagree, in that I lean towards fluff, but not a whole disagreement, as my opinion is that in the rules they should find things like Mor Deythan for Raven Guard that should be expressed across the geneline, or alter the fluff (perhaps like recent Salamanders) to allow for units across the chapters in a gene line.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 17 October 2021 - 02:59 AM.


#113
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Sorry, until GW gets around to providing unique stuff for every Chapter in the game (all 1K of them), I feel free to ignore their stupidly written supposed Successor rules - so to me, nothing is terminal. The Raptors Chapter plays as the Raven Guard, etc. Rules != fluff, fluff != rules. If that’s the only argument, we’ll just have to disagree, it holds no traction with me at all - I’ve played this game too long to feel GW will ever write Successors properly in the rules.

Successors seem to typically be trained by progenitors/members of their gene-lines, so they’d get some exposure, and likely even training, to unique squads - hence those unique squads wouldn’t be terminal, regardless of the asinine rules GW tries to write.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, and I don't think we actually disagree on so much, more that we hold orthogonal opinions than necessarily opposite opinions. Our opinions are in different frames, and sometimes they will align and sometimes they won't. For example, we discussed Mor Deythan and they would make sense to propagate to all of the XIX Legion successors in the current context, this is a full alignment of opinion.

But, for example, there's no justifiable reason that the Novamarines as a second-founding chapter would have access to Tyrannic War veterans. The Tyrannic wars started almost 10,000 years after the split between the Novamarines and the Ultramarines.

So we disagree, in that I lean towards fluff, but not a whole disagreement, as my opinion is that in the rules they should find things like Mor Deythan for Raven Guard that should be expressed across the geneline, or alter the fluff (perhaps like recent Salamanders) to allow for units across the chapters in a gene line.
it’s not that hard to justify nova marines getting tyrannic war veterans.

Maybe some came to the aid of the smurfs? Maybe they just had their own major conflict with the tyranids themselves? Etc.
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#114
Iron Father Ferrum

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Ultras: write a new section in the Codex Astartes about specialized anti-Nid units. Distribute to other Chapters.

Novas: read new section, "good idea! Let's form a squad!"


All too easy. /darthvader
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#115
Jacques Corbin

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Well, here is a radical idea for the Ultramarines. We said the Raven Guard should get the Mor Deythan, because it it a historical unit for the Chapter, members of which share a specific genetic trait with Corax. Ok, what is Guilliman's trait? Logistics. Not fancy at all, and kind of thought of as lame. But, what if UM could take a Techmarine, Servitors, and a fortification of UM cargo containers, and you could spend command points before the game starts, to swap out weapon and wargear options? For example, pay 1CP and a squad of 5 Intercessors can swap their Bolt Rifles for Auto or Stalker patterns, 2CP for a unit of 10. Or 2CP for a vehicle, say you want the Incendium Cannon for your Invictor instead of the Autocannons. No issue if the change in wargear costs no points (matched play) or does not increase Power Level (narrative). Now, you balance that by making the containers a major objective for the opponent, because it is a cache of weapons and ammo, and therefore a High Value Target.

But, it would showcase the impact that great logistics could have on a battle, but also demonstrate the risks of have your supply lines so far forward.

Honestly, I would love to hear what UM super fan @Ishagu would think of this.

#116
Blindhamster

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But you won’t, as he was banned.

Time will tell on subfaction specific units I guess.
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#117
Jacques Corbin

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Oh, what Happened?

#118
Bryan Blaire

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Oh, what Happened?

http://www.bolterand...members-banned/

 

Probably the last that needs to be said on the subject - let’s get back to potential faction specific units or reasons for not having them.


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