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GK wishlist of things to fix


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9 replies to this topic

#1
Skywrath

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So I know our codex has dropped, and people are saying we are good, but I disagree. The more I review our predicament, the more I am assaulted by a feeling of incomplete potential and a subpar thought process compared to the other releases. So just to alleviate this feeling, and to voice what I perceive to be a good addition to our codex, here are a few items, in hopes GW will see this and address this (hahah, yeah, I know that ain't happening).

 

 

1. Kaldor get's +1 to his armor save, because he has a SS. Sure having a 3+ invuln is nice, but mostly due to some pretty bad dice rolls on my part, and in the current meta where everything has high AP all over the place, having this little QoL would be nice. Then there is the fact they went out of their way to nerf Kaldor to a 4+ with that rule, and then they forgot about the fact that all SS gets +1 to their armor save?? Oversight? Otherwise he feels a tad squishy, personally - subjective opinion here. Oh and in BS he is missing his title of "Lord" - add that back, immediately, thanks. 

 

2. Transhuman reworked to 1CP for 5m /2CP for 10m. Why on earth is our :cussing transhuman 2/3CP? Yes I get it we can slap transhuman on anyone, and we are psykers (big whoop when you have a secondary that directly :cusss us over) but 3CP for a brick of 10 and 2CP for a brick of 5, when there are relics/abilities (see Deathwing) running around with that baked in, in an already CP hungry army? I'd settle for 2CP across the board, even for a unit of 5.

 

3. Zone of Warding reworked to 1CP flat. +1 to invuln saves in shooting (to a maximum of a 4+) and a 5+ invuln if you don't already have an invuln save seems fairly reasonable to me. Plus that would incentivise to take warding staves in groups of 5 (I already do that, nonetherless). 

 

4. Chaplain knowing 2 litanies and casting 1 litany. If we aren't going to get the chapter upgrades of the SM, those might as well be baked in somewhat. I don't like spending 2CP each turn for an additional litany to be cast, again mostly for the reason we are CP hungry. We are the supposed to be the finest of the best, none of this feels like we are. Yes we have our character upgrades for a points value, and I'm ready to argue with the next person that says they are good. Sure we have some very good ones such as Noble Death, Servant of the Throne, Foretelling of Locus, Omen of Incursion but then that leaves you with the other 5-6 choices that I honestly see a hard time taking over the ones listed above.

 

5. Include the options for Master Apothecary, Master of Sanctity, Master of the Forge, Chapter Master (yes there were other chapter masters before Draigo) for the relevant points costs (I even wouldn't mind if we paid a premium of 5-10pts more than the SM counter-parts just based on the fact we are psykers). Our current GK structure still has it, fluff-wise, and yes we are supposed to be different, but here we have it.

 

6. Paladins having a 2+ BS as well as a 4+ invuln and a Bodyguard keyword. Simple as that - DS Terminators have it, DW terminators have it, the other marines have it, why don't we have that? Then there is the fact that paladins eat demon princes for breakfast, and I honestly have a hard time seeing them doing that with a BS of 3.

 

7. The steel heart giving you +1 to our hit rolls in ranged as well as melee. SM's have that, we don't, yet we still use their rules of bolter discipline. That's just plain silly. Just merge it with Death from the Warp, and remove the silly clause if you come out of DS, problem solved. 

 

8. Warp tides not acting as doctrines - Give us the ability to change it back, thanks, or give us a WL trait that allows a unit to be in that tide specifically for that round. Again, a very pointless change, one that I am extremely angry about.

 

9. Fly keyword added back to Interceptors - bruh.

 

10. Steely Advance to 1CP - again, just a copy paste of the marine version.

 

 

That's largely my list of suggestion/complaints with the codex. If all of those 10pts were done, I'd be happy with where we would be. There are probably more than this I forgot about but eh, those are the main points.


Edited by Skywrath, 11 October 2021 - 10:15 AM.

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#2
Mr4Minutes

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The additional CP charge for a number of strats is definitely in the more frustrating side. It’s why I don’t like purgation squads. They need too many strats to shoot the targets they’re intended for.

I’m slightly confused on what you mean by your first point however. Kaldor doesn’t actually have a Storm Shield rule. It’s the Sanctum Sigilium and it gives him the 3++. He’s one of the few 9th models that still has a 3+ invuln to boot. That’s why he doesn’t also get the +1 armor save.

Edited by Mr4Minutes, 11 October 2021 - 02:25 PM.

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#3
Trollbeard

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Grey Knights have been placing well in tournaments and winning some. Yes we aren’t DE or Admech level of power, but I think that’s good. If you expected us to be anywhere near that you were setting yourself up for disappointment.

I do agree with most of your points, but to say we are bad is not true. We are different now for sure. And expecting things to stay the same would have also set you up for disappointment.

Every faction got a bit of a re work, some more so then others.

#4
L30n1d4s

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I agree that several of our key Strats cost too many CP, but I have an alternative proposal.

Instead of flat reducing the CP on them all, give Grand Masters (including Voldus, but not including Draigo or GMNDK) a special rule that let's them reduce the CP cost of a GK Strat by -1 once per turn (if you have more than one Grandmaster, then they each get to use this once per turn).

The idea here is two-fold... first, give GKs a little relief on CP usage (since they do have some expensive Strats) and two, give a reason to take a normal Grand Master. Right now there are good incentives to take Draigo, Crowe, GMNDKs, Librarians, Techmarines, Brother-Captains, and even Chaplains, but almost no competitive reason to ever consider a Grand Master on foot... this would help bring better internal balance among GK HQs, help get some more Strats off, but still require player skill in choosing what Strats to reduce the CP costs on.

As for Draigo and Paladins, my solution would be a little broader... let all Honoured Knights (so including Crowe, Purifiers, and Ven Dreads) get free re-roll of 1s to hit and ignore AP-1. This makes them all a little more competitive for their points, makes up for the fact that they can't get Brotherhood buffs, and gives them a bit of protection against "chip" damage to represent their elite status.

Other than that, the last thing I would add is to make GK Chaplains, Apothecaries, and BH Champions have the Space Marine Chapter Command abilities "built in" to their base profiles (for a reasonable points increase each to their current cost, of course). So, a GK Chaplain would come with "stock" the ability to know three/use two Litanies, the Apothecary would come with the ability to heal twice, and Crowe/BH Champ would get the Skillful Parry/Exquisite Swordsman abilities as part of their base rules.

Edited by L30n1d4s, 11 October 2021 - 03:48 PM.

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#5
Trollbeard

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I was disappointed we didn’t get the chapter command choices, SM being able to revive things like Eradicators and inceptions for free is oppressive.

#6
Archadeus

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Were not bad, just take 4-5 dreadknights surrounded by interceptors and youll be fine. Plus im not sure why everyone was expecting chapter command, were not space marines and with psychic powers theres no way were ever going to have it without insane price hikes.


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#7
angrom

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I agree with all these points, and I would add to people thinking that our codex is good as it is that the codex placing well in tournament is not codex grey knights but codex dreadknights. If you don't see the difference I would remind everyone that chapter approved are a thing and not too far from now. Once this one drop and the dreadknight points will go up, the whole "greatness" of this codex will collapse as people will realize that even with a point drop our infantry just don't have any of the right tools to deal with half-smart opponents.
I keep saying it but an elite melee faction need more than just basic deepstrike and repositioning to work. No source of fight last, efficient and cheap survivable tricks that cannot be countered and no form of advance and charge or bonus to charge (I don't consider first to the fray as one) is a red flag.
It means that regardless on how we are costed we will be lacking the basic tactical flexibility to work as a melee army and sadly this can't be fixed before next codex drop.
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#8
Closet Skeleton

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6. Paladins having a 2+ BS as well as a 4+ invuln and a Bodyguard keyword. Simple as that - DS Terminators have it, DW terminators have it, the other marines have it, why don't we have that? Then there is the fact that paladins eat demon princes for breakfast, and I honestly have a hard time seeing them doing that with a BS of 3.

 

7. The steel heart giving you +1 to our hit rolls in ranged as well as melee. SM's have that, we don't, yet we still use their rules of bolter discipline. That's just plain silly. Just merge it with Death from the Warp, and remove the silly clause if you come out of DS, problem solved.

 

9. Fly keyword added back to Interceptors - bruh.

Interceptors don't have wings, they are not assault marines. The rules are supposed to match the theme, hence Primaris Grav tanks losing fly since their fluff was always that they couldn't actually clear high obsticals due to inferior tech compared to Eldar/Tau versions or even Arkhan Land's lighter vehicles. Its not like fly is even that amazing in 9th ed.

 

Regular Space marines have loads of rules that are just +1 to hit in either melee or ranged so while it seems odd that Fury of the First is broader than Steel Heart its not completely unfair but I've never wanted to spend a cp to give terminators +1 to hit from shooting in the first place so can't judge. SM Terminators also have to give stuff up for their 4+ invulnerable saves and DG are the only chaos faction to get 4+ terminators, GK at least get a stratagem for the 4+. I play DG with a lot of terminators and wouldn't mind them being nerfed to 5+ invulnerable for balance if other armies got toned done.

 

GK chaplains just being not that great doesn't seem a big issue flavour wise.

 

I agree with all these points, and I would add to people thinking that our codex is good as it is that the codex placing well in tournament is not codex grey knights but codex dreadknights.

 

Tournaments having cookie cutter units has nothing to do with Codex power, its just how tournaments work. GK have a good codex full of stuff that can support those dreadknights, Tyranids have a terrible codex and still had a terrible codex pre-Rule of Three where 7 Hive Tyrants dominated events.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 12 October 2021 - 08:57 AM.


#9
Gnomeo

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Having played in a recent tournament grey knights are good. I understand the cost of our stratergems because our units are better than other peoples so keeping them alive makes more of an input. I do feel that there is a lack of internal balance. Not that there are bad units but that dreadknights and interceptors are soo much better than everything else.

#10
angrom

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"Tournaments having cookie cutter units has nothing to do with Codex power, its just how tournaments work. GK have a good codex full of stuff that can support those dreadknights, Tyranids have a terrible codex and still had a terrible codex pre-Rule of Three where 7 Hive Tyrants dominated events."

Yes there will always be a "set" of units that stands out as the competitive optimal and this optimal is somewhat reshuffled at each chapter approved. However our codex is in a very different situation as beside interceptors and Dreadknights everything else is not properly tooled up to work efficiently for the point investment.
Other armies have an "optimal" build but have many other options at their disposal.
Look at admec, drukhari, orks, and many more. When a unit or a nerf drop they can explore new optimal builds and bounce back.
We, however have very limited datasheets and no option to soup with other astartes since they removed that option when we became a separate imperium faction entirely.
If interceptors and dreadknights go too high in points what are we left with?
Spam strike squads and termis? Unless our terminator cost drop to 35 pts that wouldn't work either.
A well crafted elite army has few datasheets but all being strong in their own ways and with a lot of tactical flexibility offered by good stratagems
(Custodes being a good example of that).
To make up for the premium cost in points.
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