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chapter approved and point changes


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35 replies to this topic

#1
Medjugorje

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Is there some Info when the next CA should be released or when it should usually released?

I thought it should be already there.



#2
Marshal Loss

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The most recent one was put up for preorder in late May. It might get shown in the October preview, but I wouldn't expect it to get released until December/January.


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#3
Dark Shepherd

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My guess is points changes via PDF in December, printed in January White Dwarf

IIRC we havent had a big FAQ for 9th yet? Or just far less than 8th?

Either way maybe some general FAQs rule changes via PDF in December but no new mission packs or anything til next summer Id wager

#4
phandaal

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Expecting a nerf to Bodyguard rules coming out at some point. Maybe changing them so they actually have to be visible to confer their benefits.
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#5
Karhedron

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Expecting a nerf to Bodyguard rules coming out at some point. Maybe changing them so they actually have to be visible to confer their benefits.


While that would make more sense, is this a mechanic that is being abused currently?
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#6
Brainpsyk

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Well RAW,

- you can't fire overwatch at a charging character if there is a bodyguard nearby (thread on dakka dakka)

- you can hide a bodyguard out of LOS and the character out in the wide open 3" away and the character (or character dread) is still untargetable.



#7
Lukoi

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The problem with the out of LOS aspect, is that your opponent can always move to gain line of sight on the bodyguards.

If the language is changed such that the bodyguards need to be visible to the firing unit, or the character loses its protection, means now the "abuse," of the rule will swap over to the attacker's advantage.
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#8
Fulkes

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The problem with the out of LOS aspect, is that your opponent can always move to gain line of sight on the bodyguards.

If the language is changed such that the bodyguards need to be visible to the firing unit, or the character loses its protection, means now the "abuse," of the rule will swap over to the attacker's advantage.

We went through a similar problem with the "closest model" version of LoS as well. Honestly making the Bodyguard visible just means they'll need to move around as if they were one unit (bubble wrapping the character like the Secret Service on the President) which would at least be thematic instead of untargetable nonsense.
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#9
Medjugorje

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The problem with the out of LOS aspect, is that your opponent can always move to gain line of sight on the bodyguards.

If the language is changed such that the bodyguards need to be visible to the firing unit, or the character loses its protection, means now the "abuse," of the rule will swap over to the attacker's advantage.

you could handle that problem if the bodyguard must have a TLOS to the Character.



#10
AenarIT

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The LOS bodyguard rule works like this now because when it used to work the opposite way it was too easy to bypass by aligning shooting units in a way that they only had LOS on the character. Incredibly easy to do with interposing solid models like a Rhino.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense right now, but simply going back to the old rule doesn't work either imho. 

As for the next point update, I hope for December or January as well. This game needs frequent updates to bring broken stuff in line and help struggling factions a bit. 
Ideally I would go for quarterly updates, distributed online and for free, but that would be wishlisting :D



#11
phandaal

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Expecting a nerf to Bodyguard rules coming out at some point. Maybe changing them so they actually have to be visible to confer their benefits.

While that would make more sense, is this a mechanic that is being abused currently?

Abused, maybe not. But certainly being used to its full extent. Think Celestine sitting out in the open on a point while her Bodyguard units chill behind LoS blocking terrain. Or Ravenwing Talonmasters sitting out with nice firing lines at everything while a Deathwing Command Squad sits behind terrain.

Would call it cheesy at least.

To avoid attackers moving so they can't see Bodyguard units just to be able to shoot at characters, it could be changed to be like Tau shield drones - Bodyguards tank the shots meant for the character until they're dead. Something like that.
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#12
Medjugorje

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The LOS bodyguard rule works like this now because when it used to work the opposite way it was too easy to bypass by aligning shooting units in a way that they only had LOS on the character. Incredibly easy to do with interposing solid models like a Rhino.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense right now, but simply going back to the old rule doesn't work either imho. 

As for the next point update, I hope for December or January as well. This game needs frequent updates to bring broken stuff in line and help struggling factions a bit. 
Ideally I would go for quarterly updates, distributed online and for free, but that would be wishlisting biggrin.png

Protection  could be an action for example



#13
phandaal

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Didn't mean to derail the thread. Maybe CSM will finally get that mythical 2 Wounds in the next update?

#14
Marshal Loss

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Didn't mean to derail the thread. Maybe CSM will finally get that mythical 2 Wounds in the next update?

Not a chance. That update will come with their codex.


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#15
jarms48

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The most recent one was put up for preorder in late May. It might get shown in the October preview, but I wouldn't expect it to get released until December/January.

 

Very much this. I'd except a new CA every 6 months at this rate.



#16
Daedalus81

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Expecting a nerf to Bodyguard rules coming out at some point. Maybe changing them so they actually have to be visible to confer their benefits.


While that would make more sense, is this a mechanic that is being abused currently?

 

 

Not in my view, no.

 

The big problem is so many good units that can shoot out of LOS with no penalty.  Bodyguard wouldn't be as necessary if there was some malus to shooting at things you can't see.



#17
AenarIT

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Units that can shoot out of LOS are good right now because the game requires way more terrain than usual to function properly, so normal shooting that requires LOS is way less useful than in the past. It's a chicken and egg situation.
 



#18
Emicus

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As for bodyguard they could return to the old 'takes damage instead' or even 'intercepts and takes mortal wound'. No LoS issues at all.

#19
Captain Idaho

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Problem with that is the needless additional dice rolling. Just protecting the unit is fine. Make sure the bodyguard has to be visible to be able to protect the character.

What abuse opponents can really take if that update was taken I don't know fully, but it's minimal. Sure, they could move so they can't see any models bar the character, but that's pretty much on you - you can see who can see your character and anticipate movement the opponent might make.

It'll be fine.

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#20
MARK0SIAN

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My personal view is that bodyguards should not only need to be visible but also in between the firing unit and the unit they’re protecting. You can’t take a bullet for someone if you’re behind them when they’re shot.
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#21
Brainpsyk

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My personal view is that bodyguards should not only need to be visible but also in between the firing unit and the unit they’re protecting. You can’t take a bullet for someone if you’re behind them when they’re shot.

The downside is that gets into LoS shenanigans, where you place your models and terrain in such a way that only the character is visible, like placing 2 rhinos in a V-shape to block out the bodyguards.

 

I like the idea of the wounds just transferring from the character to the bodyguards, where the bodyguards gets no saves of any kind.  (to avoid the 8th ed. Iron Hands shenanigans).



#22
Evil Eye

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The problem with the out of LOS aspect, is that your opponent can always move to gain line of sight on the bodyguards.

If the language is changed such that the bodyguards need to be visible to the firing unit, or the character loses its protection, means now the "abuse," of the rule will swap over to the attacker's advantage.

We went through a similar problem with the "closest model" version of LoS as well. Honestly making the Bodyguard visible just means they'll need to move around as if they were one unit (bubble wrapping the character like the Secret Service on the President) which would at least be thematic instead of untargetable nonsense.

 

My thoughts exactly. I'd also rather we didn't go for the "takes a wound with no saves allowed" solution, because I think that would render bodyguard units utterly useless. Looks at Tyrant Guard, sadly. I know I'm always in favour of things that make more thematic sense, but in the case of guard characters I genuinely think that it would work out better for the game from a mechanics/balance point of view as well- bodyguard should be played like, well, bodyguard.


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#23
MARK0SIAN

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My personal view is that bodyguards should not only need to be visible but also in between the firing unit and the unit they’re protecting. You can’t take a bullet for someone if you’re behind them when they’re shot.

The downside is that gets into LoS shenanigans, where you place your models and terrain in such a way that only the character is visible, like placing 2 rhinos in a V-shape to block out the bodyguards.

I like the idea of the wounds just transferring from the character to the bodyguards, where the bodyguards gets no saves of any kind. (to avoid the 8th ed. Iron Hands shenanigans).

I don’t think it would be an issue. You’d simply use similar rules to how terrain works. If the firing model can’t draw a straight line to the character without it crossing the bodyguard unit (including the coherency gaps between models) then the bodyguard can protect the character/model. I don’t really see how any amount of movement or blocking your own line of sight can circumvent that.

Bodyguarding is a powerful ability, it should come with some more serious movement and positioning restrictions.
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#24
Warhead01

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About the bodyguard keyword units, like Company Veterans which seem to be the prominent nuisance. 
I feel the simple solution could be done via the faq. Just add that any character unit with in 3" of them may not score objectives to start with. Maybe an extra small line of restriction. In the world of optimized play just how much of a nerf does a unit need to make it just non optimal enough to punt if from competitive play.  Maybe something excluding vehicles.
If that character unit could no longer score would players still bring Company veterans just for the bodyguard keyword?
The other proposed changes above seem to me to create other problems, like giving a character a pool ablative wounds for more shenanigan's. Do we want to give more wounds to a character dreadnought? (Does it even matter? )

My other thoughts were that if the bodyguard keyword unit hast to be in front of the character why wouldn't I just use a tougher unit and play keeping the usual character targeting rules in mind.  I guess I see those ideas as completely unrelated to what the keyword does, raw. Your asking for a completely different unit or effectively letting characters "join" the body guard.
Throwbacks from older editions. should it work that way? Sure, maybe.  
I also don't think it's a problem with the unit so much as the players. 
My only other thought worth posting was, if I know the other player will pull some bodyguard silliness they I need to bring some kind of indirect fire and wipe them in the first turn or two.
It also means every faction should have access to an indirect fire unit of some kind. 

Any way that's my take on it and if needed up the points for that keyword if it helps balance I guess. 

 


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#25
Orange Knight

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This bodyguard discussion is interesting. Are the units being abused at the moment? I haven't noticed much complaining on the issue even if the potential for jank is there.

As for the CA itself - I hope the point adjustments are more aggressive this time around. There is an opportunity here to make units like Repulsors and Landraiders compelling, and a 5% reduction in cost won't have any impact.
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