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chapter approved and point changes


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#26
AenarIT

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This bodyguard discussion is interesting. Are the units being abused at the moment? I haven't noticed much complaining on the issue even if the potential for jank is there.

As for the CA itself - I hope the point adjustments are more aggressive this time around. There is an opportunity here to make units like Repulsors and Landraiders compelling, and a 5% reduction in cost won't have any impact.

If the Tau codex wasn't dropping in January (according to the leaked schedule), I'd have expected yet another -1 (ONE) point change on the Riptide like in the last CA. 



#27
Orange Knight

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I agree. Some of the updates are very poor.

What made CA exciting when it was initially introduced was the idea of fine-tuning the game regularly. All it has ever done is nerfed a few units too late and too harshly, and in other cases reduce points by a minimal or inconsequential amount.

Some mission packs have been historically decent at least, but not in the recent updates.
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#28
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9th has kinda descended into hot mess territory. They have the tools but fail to use them. FAQ and Chapter Approved sit idle as balance fades. Hype engine roars along tossing up yet more creepy codecs, primaris marines we didnt know we wanted, and reprints of stale suppliments. Game development is not easy but GW makes it look darn near impossible until you glance around and notice the variety of lean hungry companies making accessible games, with modern mechanics, free rules and regular balance updates. The IP is still tops but we are only one Jar Jar away from an uncorrectable corporate cash out doom spiral. #makegrimdarkgreatagain
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#29
dice4thedicegod

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This bodyguard discussion is interesting. Are the units being abused at the moment? I haven't noticed much complaining on the issue even if the potential for jank is there.

As for the CA itself - I hope the point adjustments are more aggressive this time around. There is an opportunity here to make units like Repulsors and Landraiders compelling, and a 5% reduction in cost won't have any impact.

If the Tau codex wasn't dropping in January (according to the leaked schedule), I'd have expected yet another -1 (ONE) point change on the Riptide like in the last CA.

/ obelisk has entered the chat

#30
Black Blow Fly

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9th has kinda descended into hot mess territory. They have the tools but fail to use them. FAQ and Chapter Approved sit idle as balance fades. Hype engine roars along tossing up yet more creepy codecs, primaris marines we didnt know we wanted, and reprints of stale suppliments. Game development is not easy but GW makes it look darn near impossible until you glance around and notice the variety of lean hungry companies making accessible games, with modern mechanics, free rules and regular balance updates. The IP is still tops but we are only one Jar Jar away from an uncorrectable corporate cash out doom spiral. #makegrimdarkgreatagain

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#31
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I agree. Some of the updates are very poor.

What made CA exciting when it was initially introduced was the idea of fine-tuning the game regularly. All it has ever done is nerfed a few units too late and too harshly, and in other cases reduce points by a minimal or inconsequential amount.

Some mission packs have been historically decent at least, but not in the recent updates.


Would like to see some more Open War cards for mix & match games. More win conditions, more objectives.

Matched Play with codex creep and secondary objectives just is not all that fun, so it would be cool to see a few updates for their other game mode.
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#32
AenarIT

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9th has kinda descended into hot mess territory. They have the tools but fail to use them. FAQ and Chapter Approved sit idle as balance fades. Hype engine roars along tossing up yet more creepy codecs, primaris marines we didnt know we wanted, and reprints of stale suppliments. Game development is not easy but GW makes it look darn near impossible until you glance around and notice the variety of lean hungry companies making accessible games, with modern mechanics, free rules and regular balance updates. The IP is still tops but we are only one Jar Jar away from an uncorrectable corporate cash out doom spiral. #makegrimdarkgreatagain

Amen to that.

7th was probably worse in terms of game balance (formations and bonkers rules), but there was no expectaction to have a balanced game back then.

There was no rebalancing and no FAQs/Erratas, so the game was what it was and you either liked it enough to play or not. 

Now they have stated that they wanted to do better, to balance the game regularly and to listen to the players in the community. For a while in 8th the pace of updates was decent and the resulting balance was good, but now it's just a mess.

I feel that now it's the worst the game has ever been just because of the expectations that they have generated for a better game. 

 

Let's hope that once covid/brexit/shipping issues get resolved the situation improves a bit.

The next CA would be a great starting point to address the balance problem. 


 


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#33
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I've always imagined that the willingness is there amongst employees, but the higher ups don't see a need to put in more resources and funds, concluding what they are doing currently is "fine" to keep things floating along. I suppose they don't see the monetary incentive to divert more energy into this area. 


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#34
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I do think that the pandemic had quite a bit to do with lackluster CA we got over the summer. There just weren't a lot of games being played, that said there are a lot of units and fractions that quite clearly need help. That said a free download for people that bought last years, while printing a new one for people that didn't have it would have been a much more consumer friendly move.

 

Hopefully they do a december update, or at the very least work on getting DE and Admech toned down a little bit more.

 

They also need to slow down the "hype machine" marketing these products. Its just increases frustration when they don't deliver. Its like their community previews on twitch they don't need to build them up as much, we'll still be curious. Sorry if I'm being negative I'm just really bitter about the last CA.   


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#35
phandaal

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They also need to slow down the "hype machine" marketing these products. Its just increases frustration when they don't deliver. Its like their community previews on twitch they don't need to build them up as much, we'll still be curious. Sorry if I'm being negative I'm just really bitter about the last CA.   

 

The hype machine feels like it is a bigger deal to Games Workshop than it is to their customers.

 

Every new release has this lead-up of little hints and info drips and drops until finally there is this BIG REVEAL. Feels like it it leaning heavily on the hype machine and, in some cases, the FOMO machine.

 

Contrast that with how happy customers were to see those leaks back in August saying "here is what is coming out, here is when it is coming out for the next 6 months and beyond."



#36
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I do think that the pandemic had quite a bit to do with lackluster CA we got over the summer. There just weren't a lot of games being played, that said there are a lot of units and fractions that quite clearly need help. That said a free download for people that bought last years, while printing a new one for people that didn't have it would have been a much more consumer friendly move.
 
Hopefully they do a december update, or at the very least work on getting DE and Admech toned down a little bit more.
 
They also need to slow down the "hype machine" marketing these products. Its just increases frustration when they don't deliver. Its like their community previews on twitch they don't need to build them up as much, we'll still be curious. Sorry if I'm being negative I'm just really bitter about the last CA.


I think the key thing to remember here is the CA was planned and probably in production before the DE codex even came out. So the points adjustment was knowing DE were OP when they were released.   Now, with a lack of a PDF at least helping some armies that desperately need it, it's apparent GW is just milking the codex creep. 

 

The downside is that folks like me now only buy used from eBay, or have friends that do 3D printing.  I mostly play IG at the moment, so there's no value in me buying new.  There's only TCs and Manticores that kill anything, and infantry is for screening.  Conscripts *may* have a place with the new Octarius rules, but outside of Bullgryns, there's nothing on my need list.


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#37
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I'm more frustrated with the bottom dwellers than I am with the new books.

Guard, GSC, and Tau have been pretty awful this edition, and those are the fractions I would've like to see have changes.

Edited by Jorin Helm-splitter, 23 October 2021 - 07:20 PM.

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#38
Dark Shepherd

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Part of the problem is the reliance on tournaments to inform decisions on points/unit changes, which was obviously massively disrupted this edition due to covid, both qualitative and quantitative

External playtesters can and do inform them of issues before and after books go to print but arent always listened to.
Theres only something like 4 internal playtesters too and they have other duties eg writing the rules (think am right here) and they really dont seem to think in terms of wombo combos or stacking buffs/traits

Edited by Dark Shepherd, 23 October 2021 - 07:26 PM.

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#39
chapter master 454

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Part of the problem is the reliance on tournaments to inform decisions on points/unit changes, which was obviously massively disrupted this edition due to covid, both qualitative and quantitative

External playtesters can and do inform them of issues before and after books go to print but arent always listened to.
Theres only something like 4 internal playtesters too and they have other duties eg writing the rules (think am right here) and they really dont seem to think in terms of wombo combos or stacking buffs/traits

 

and not like actual players could get copies of the codex to at least read and give possible feedback through minor theory crafting and personal space games...I mean if ONLY there was a way to get codices digitally and not need to rely on supply chains that can be disrupted...if only they HAD such an incredibly useful and powerful tool...if only they had such a mysterious tool of mystic origin...as if there was a simple fix to all this that no company in their right mind would do away with unless they were being greedy.

 

So now that have laid at least 10 thunder hammer wielding vanguard vets worth into GWs ribcage carcass that is the mess they put themselves in removing ePubs, I'll also lay into another layer of melee by activating "Honour thy chapter" and go for seconds.

 

It also seems like GW are struggling to sell product as well, like codices are being heavily stymied in their release due to supply chain issues. If only GW had means to sell such things digitally, sort of like how most things are going these days that can. If only there was a way to release codices without the need to ship them across the globe with but a mere snap of the fingers by internet. If only they had something like this. I would think if they did they wouldn't of ever done away with it as it was another source of income that cost them nothing to maintain. Oh if only.

 

(Not like they release FAQs and Erratas online right? Not like they release PDFs you can access online and download to use for your army on your phone or tablet. I mean, that would be crazy talk right. Digital retail? Pfft, what a fad. I mean Steam is practically dying right? Not like every company that can or wants to is trying to make their own version of steam.

And no, I will not stop laying into GW over this move they made. If I ever got to get my power fist armed hands on GW decision makers, I would be meting out serious D2 to them.)


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#40
Brother Sidonius

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I think this is something that we as a community can fix. We could write our own unofficial FAQs that makes every unit worth it's points (or at least makes every unit a viable option). It wouldn't be used in any tournaments but I'm convinced it's an achievable aim that would improve the hobby


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#41
tychobi

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I think this is something that we as a community can fix. We could write our own unofficial FAQs that makes every unit worth it's points (or at least makes every unit a viable option). It wouldn't be used in any tournaments but I'm convinced it's an achievable aim that would improve the hobby

We have done this.  For many years TOs made balance decisions on their own to varying success.  Community builders have long struggled to keep 40k relevant despite the rules. Meet frontline gaming. It was does and will be used at tournaments.  9th represents gw attempting to reclaim the bleeding edge of their own ip.  Mixed success?


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#42
Brother Sidonius

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I think this is something that we as a community can fix. We could write our own unofficial FAQs that makes every unit worth it's points (or at least makes every unit a viable option). It wouldn't be used in any tournaments but I'm convinced it's an achievable aim that would improve the hobby

We have done this.  For many years TOs made balance decisions on their own to varying success.  Community builders have long struggled to keep 40k relevant despite the rules. Meet frontline gaming. It was does and will be used at tournaments.  9th represents gw attempting to reclaim the bleeding edge of their own ip.  Mixed success?

 

I assume you're referring to the incredible ITC tournament format? There's none better for playing a balanced tournament format, but my idea is to 'patch' the datasheets and stratagems to bring balance. I haven't come across anything like that before 



#43
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Isnt that an issue, albeit not as much of a one as it was; taking data from essentially a set of house rules eg ITC and applying the changes to a game thats played 90-95% of the time not under those rules
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#44
Ahzek451

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External playtesters can and do inform them of issues before and after books go to print but arent always listened to.


I've also heard this quite a but. Tabletop tactics has outright said it a few times. Makes one think what is the point? I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons as to why, but I think a big part circles back to not wanting to divest the resources to do it proper. Essentially boiling down to a "it's good enough" and "we'll get it next time" approach.

#45
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From what I understamd part of the issue is that sometimes the playtesters are told of how a rule will work, but don't see the actual rules language which means the final version can have exploits no one sees coming.

Honestly GW needs to take some notes from Mantic's rules commitee approach and stop putting books in super short deadlines. Plus getting all the armies on the same page and then releasing yearly expansions for them and the game seems like a much better system for balance.

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#46
tychobi

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I do not believe that GW is all that interested in game balance.  Power creep is real.  GW either is clueless or attempting to manipulate balance to gain profit.  I prefer the clueless theory for personal reasons


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#47
Fulkes

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I do not believe that GW is all that interested in game balance.  Power creep is real.  GW either is clueless or attempting to manipulate balance to gain profit.  I prefer the clueless theory for personal reasons

I disagree. The studio is interested in comp play and even has Pete Foley (the most well known comp player of the studio) in charge of the studio. Chances are that it gets messy once the suits get involved and budget restrictions on release cycles come into play.


++The Eternal Crusade: Black Templars Tactica (updated Oct 9, 2021)++

 

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#48
MARK0SIAN

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The most frustrating thing about the balance issues aren’t the ones that are unforeseen broken combos where someone has managed to work out a way to combine a subfaction trait with three or four other tools and create something godly powerful. It’s the glaring mistakes that should never have even left the drawing board and certainly shouldn’t have survived scrutiny from the other rules writers like enriched rounds or liquifier wracks. These are things you can’t blame corporate or play testers for. They’re the kind of mistakes you’d expect from amateur, inexperienced rules writers, not from a company with the size and experience of GW.
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gallery_86689_11936_21517.pngsml_gallery_48988_16053_22349.png


#49
Fulkes

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The most frustrating thing about the balance issues aren’t the ones that are unforeseen broken combos where someone has managed to work out a way to combine a subfaction trait with three or four other tools and create something godly powerful. It’s the glaring mistakes that should never have even left the drawing board and certainly shouldn’t have survived scrutiny from the other rules writers like enriched rounds or liquifier wracks. These are things you can’t blame corporate or play testers for. They’re the kind of mistakes you’d expect from amateur, inexperienced rules writers, not from a company with the size and experience of GW.

I think people need to remember that most of the old writers we know don't do 40k anymore. Cruddace is the only one we know who is actively part of that team these days so chances are we are looking at much less experienced writers.

 

Additionally, GW has a problem with how they crunch their stuff out in order to get it printed on time. James Hewitt only got 5 months to write and playtest Necromunda for example:

 

 

Lupe: [laughs] I imagine it was! It was pretty weird being there honestly.

 

James: I was speaking to the camping or sailing supplies shop and got them to send us some. But anyway, so we had to make a game that would fit into the November release slot. Now, the prices of getting a game manufactured, remember that this is all manufactured in China. Specialist Games stuff was all done,  I don’t know if it still is now, but it was all done in China because there was no capacity in the factory at GW.

 

Lupe: So all the plastic sprues and stuff were done in China?

 

James: Yes, it was another company that was kind of seconded and they were really high quality and made really good stuff. They were the one company to do things to GW standard and they were given a contract to do [the specialist games releases]. So the price of doing that, getting on a boat back to the UK, getting it into our warehouses to be distributed across the world in time for release day means that you need a good solid six months between the game being released and the game being manufactured and done. 

 

Basically, I was told in December “you’re starting [necromunda] at the end of December, and it needs to be done by April. It needs to go to the manufacturers in April.”


++The Eternal Crusade: Black Templars Tactica (updated Oct 9, 2021)++

 

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#50
Black Blow Fly

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I do not believe that GW is all that interested in game balance.  Power creep is real.  GW either is clueless or attempting to manipulate balance to gain profit.  I prefer the clueless theory for personal reasons

I disagree. The studio is interested in comp play and even has Pete Foley (the most well known comp player of the studio) in charge of the studio. Chances are that it gets messy once the suits get involved and budget restrictions on release cycles come into play.

 

-

Unfortunately he also had a big hand in the new DA codex which just happens to be his favorite faction and it really shows too.


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