Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

DA 2000 (The Hammer of Caliban)


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Making a switch to my DA for the tournament, and came up with this list (assume a competitive scenario)..

 

 
++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [46 PL, -1CP, 980pts] ++
 
+ Configuration +
 
**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels
 
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment [3CP]
 
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
 
+ HQ +
 
Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 125pts]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command:  Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate, Rites of War, Storm bolter, Warlord
 
+ Elites +
 
Deathwing Champion [5 PL, 95pts]: Chapter Command:  Chapter Champion, Master-Crafted Weapon
 
Deathwing Command Squad [10 PL, 205pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. Deathwing Sergeant
. . Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. Deathwing Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Chainfist: Chainfist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Chainfist: Chainfist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Assault cannon, Power Fist: Assault cannon, Power fist
 
Deathwing Terminator Squad [9 PL, 215pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. Deathwing Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Assault cannon, Power Fist: Assault cannon, Power fist
 
Deathwing Terminator Squad [9 PL, 205pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. Deathwing Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
 
Ravenwing Apothecary [6 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, Reliquary of the Repentant, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter
. Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon
 
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [50 PL, 8CP, 1,020pts] ++
 
+ Configuration +
 
**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels
 
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 
 
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
 
+ Stratagems +
 
Stratagem: Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics
 
+ HQ +
 
Azrael [8 PL, 170pts]
 
+ Troops +
 
Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 130pts]: Helix gauntlet
. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
Inceptor Squad [14 PL, 300pts]: 4x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator x2
 
+ Flyer +
 
Ravenwing Dark Talon [11 PL, 210pts]
 
Ravenwing Dark Talon [11 PL, 210pts]
 
++ Total: [96 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
 
Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
 
 
Secondaries: Stubborn Defiance, Stranglehold (switch this out for mission one/oaths of moment/death in the wind if needed), Grind them down.
 
Plan: The shooty terminator squad of 5 scores stubborn defiance, the infiltrators stays on the other point. Inceptors depending on match-up stick close to Azrael for the 4+ invuln or start in deepstrike. The other squad of melee terminators and the command squad go in deepstrike with the IC in TDA and the Deathwing Champion. Ravenwing Dark Talons zip up the board, to snipe characters, or to take our large threats. RW apothecary depending on whether Inceptors are in deepstrike stays behind cover or with them as with Azrael.
 
Hold three points, gun down the other points so you score strangehold if chosen into it, which then plays into Grind them Down/Death in the Wind. T2, drop the command squad and the terminator squad to take of things such as Ork buddies and bump them up into assault doctrine for the DW re-rolls. Champion can be dropped down in T2 if needed with his 7 odd attacks at S8, -3, 3 damage. Rinse and repeat, 7CP should be enough for all the things you have planned (Line Unbreakable, Commanding Oratory, WOTDA, Fury of the First, High Speed Focus).
 
Theory hammer time: Reasonings why I choose certain units.
 
Considering the Orks are the new Drukhari around here and their BS is 5, that's why I went to the Dark Talons over the Volkite Contemptors. Plus you can throw a 4+ invuln on them through High Speed focus. They will draw the fire, but if my game is against Orks due to the -1 to hit, the flyers should survive until T2 until the Deathwing arrive. Then I can bump one of those talons back into Devastator if I need to, so they can advance and shoot. 
 
Deathwing Champion - mostly for the reason to kill tough Ork characters and to kill blobs of 10+. I think he has potential, so he's getting tested on the Sunday against a friend of mine and his admech. 
 
Plasceptors - don't really need an explanation on them, but the argument on why not take hellblasters, and the answer is T5 and mobility. 
 
With that being said, thoughts?

Edited by Skywrath, 15 October 2021 - 02:16 AM.


#2
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Bump.



#3
Berzul

Berzul

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,693 posts
  • Location:Santiago, Chile
  • Faction: Wings of Dawn (DA Successors)
Im still mulling the list over. Will post soon with thoughts.
  • Skywrath likes this

"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

 

gallery_26154_15777_630.png

 

You can read the developing narrative of the Wings of Dawn, as played out in this currently

ongoing Urban Conquest Crusade campaign: "The Conquest of Exelia Tertius".

 

Decorated "Monster Slayer", according to this tiny plastic medal I was honored with by my four year old daughter this one time.

For outstanding performance in the fulfillment of duty, in crushing an entire Canoptyk Host of Necrons with my Thunder Hammer.


#4
Karhedron

Karhedron

    ++ RENASCITUR EX MORS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 5,317 posts
  • Location:Tending the Shrine of Asuryan
Is the Ravenwing Apothecary in the Vanguard Detachment? If so, maybe move home to the Patrol detachment. That way if you give the Chaplain Inner Circle, you can run it as 1st Company Detachment. This will give your Terminator Squads ObjSec and refund you the 3CP for running it. OK you need to pay 2CPs for the Patrol but it is still a net gain of 1CP and ObjSec on 2 hard-as-nails squads. It will make up for the fact that you only have 1 other Objsec unit in you army.

m3Q6G0UT7NPjak8J.jpg
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#5
Berzul

Berzul

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,693 posts
  • Location:Santiago, Chile
  • Faction: Wings of Dawn (DA Successors)
It's an Interrogator Chaplain. It comes with Inner Circle already.
  • Karhedron and Skywrath like this

"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

 

gallery_26154_15777_630.png

 

You can read the developing narrative of the Wings of Dawn, as played out in this currently

ongoing Urban Conquest Crusade campaign: "The Conquest of Exelia Tertius".

 

Decorated "Monster Slayer", according to this tiny plastic medal I was honored with by my four year old daughter this one time.

For outstanding performance in the fulfillment of duty, in crushing an entire Canoptyk Host of Necrons with my Thunder Hammer.


#6
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Is the Ravenwing Apothecary in the Vanguard Detachment? If so, maybe move home to the Patrol detachment. That way if you give the Chaplain Inner Circle, you can run it as 1st Company Detachment. This will give your Terminator Squads ObjSec and refund you the 3CP for running it. OK you need to pay 2CPs for the Patrol but it is still a net gain of 1CP and ObjSec on 2 hard-as-nails squads. It will make up for the fact that you only have 1 other Objsec unit in you army.

 

I'd recommend a few games playing with Dark Angels before posting something like that. 

 

Just to explain why any of this isn't relevant - Chaplains always have Inner Circle, barring Primaris and the regular firstborn chaplain, as well as the Deathwing keyword, which ensures they get the transhuman. Secondly the Deathwing Vanguard Detachment (aside being called Deathwing) also works either with the Inner Circle or the Deathwing keyword, ensuring that you can put any unit in there, as long as it has either of the two keywords or you pay the points premium to ensure they do. Secondly, this Vanguard detachment ensures that Deathwing Terminators always get ObSec, because as the above screenshot demonstrates it only affects your CP if your warlord isn't there, not your obsec. Which he is, because patrol -2 vs Vanguard -3, pretty easy to see where you will slap your warlord in. Compounding onto the above point, the Ravenwing Apothecary has the Inner Circle keyword, which ensures you can slap him a Deathwing Vanguard detachment with no penalty. 


Edited by Skywrath, 18 October 2021 - 06:27 AM.


#7
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
It looks like a fun, fluffy list, and pretty interesting problem set for opponents. What do you primarily intend to use it for? Local friendlies, or competitive (RTT, GT) play?

I think it is great for the former, altho you might wanna play nice with the DTalons against some fluffier lists who might not have an answer for the fliers.

Against any TAC list in more serious competitive play, I think you will find some challenges with the list as you have designed it versus how you intend to play it.

#8
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

It looks like a fun, fluffy list, and pretty interesting problem set for opponents. What do you primarily intend to use it for? Local friendlies, or competitive (RTT, GT) play?

I think it is great for the former, altho you might wanna play nice with the DTalons against some fluffier lists who might not have an answer for the fliers.

Against any TAC list in more serious competitive play, I think you will find some challenges with the list as you have designed it versus how you intend to play it.

 

GT's mostly - I don't really play casual games. I tested it against a standard DG list with 2 PBC's, some blight haulers, some Deathshroud, and it wasn't pretty for the DG player. In the end the final score was 73-58 in my favour (mostly because grind was a trap like I anticipated).The DWC in particular was a bit useless because I set him onto his DP instead of the poxwalkers (like he was intended to be used).

 

What do you mean with the second question, though, and what problems do you see with this list? Genuinely curious. TAC list - what's the abbreviation?



#9
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
Take all comers.

Sounds like a great game against the DG player. Congrats.

Quick question...I only see one WLT on the IC in TDA.

If you are only adding rites of war to him, and not wise orator, can you not swap he and Azrael, use the former for your Warlord in the Van, and Hero of the Chapter on the IC, and up with higher starting CP? I think that will start you at 8CP and add Brilliant Strategist to your arsenal.

12 CP
-3 for Van
+3 for WL in Van
+2 for Azrael as WL
-2 for patrol
-2 for heroes of the chapter (apothecary and chaplain)
-2 for relics (reliquary and master crafted halberd on champion)

I think that is right. Maybe I missed something in viewing your list.

#10
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Take all comers.

Sounds like a great game against the DG player. Congrats.

Quick question...I only see one WLT on the IC in TDA.

If you are only adding rites of war to him, and not wise orator, can you not swap he and Azrael, use the former for your Warlord in the Van, and Hero of the Chapter on the IC, and up with higher starting CP? I think that will start you at 8CP and add Brilliant Strategist to your arsenal.

12 CP
-3 for Van
+3 for WL in Van
+2 for Azrael as WL
-2 for patrol
-2 for heroes of the chapter (apothecary and chaplain)
-2 for relics (reliquary and master crafted halberd on champion)

I think that is right. Maybe I missed something in viewing your list.

 

I'm planning on always DS the IC in TDA then use the 2CP strat to get one of the litanies off. I could give him a second WL trait, but there isn't really anything good there. The Brilliant Strategist WL trait cannot offer anything to the inceptors (as their weapons are assault), but I could always bump one of the Dark Talons to Devastator for advance and shoot. However the Dark Talons are going to be always hard focused so even if I bump them back to devastator, their advance and shoot will always be hitting on 5's and 6's. The Apothecary has the Selfless healer trait, that's why I can't do what you suggested (make azrael the warlord). After reflection, I think I might drop the reliquary - not much use out of it. The DWC is also a bit flimsy, but I'm sort-off playing him wrong, and need more games with him to try. I could use his points to upgrade that command squad into a knight squad and give the Knight-Master the master-crafted weapon. 5 attacks at S6, -3, 3 damage spilling over could be very very good. 



#11
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
As for "problems," that is probably too strong a word for it, but I do see some challenges inherent to it from a less seasoned player's perspective.

You have 31 models on the board, and start with 12-17 potentially in deepstrike, which will limit your ability to screen, or cover 3 OBJ on the 5 and 6 objective maps. In fact your opening description only mentions actually holding 2 x Objectives initially.

It feels like you are heavily reliant on the Dark Talons to shape your enemy for you, and while they are pretty interesting units, I think a more competitivrly built list ready to tangle with Admech or Druks will be able knock one out turn 1, and if they spike, both birds. That latter case is admittedly unlikely, but regardless it is a significant point sink, with no back up plan if derailed.

They will force savvy players to wrap their characters, and force them to play a bit more conservatively, but even with jink and the 4++ strategem, I dont see them being overly durable in the face of focused fire, especially in the enemy's back lines where you intend to go to threaten their characters.

You are planning around Stubborn, and Strangle/Oaths which are playing against each other on most maps, and with your already elite list, your being spread out seems exploitable to me, for alot of lists.

I should have caught your initial comment about it being for an upcoming GT, my mistake, sorry for the oversight.

Overall, I can see this list doing some work, especially to someone unready for the fliers. I just think if the enemy fails to panic, keeps their characters protected, and deals with the fliers calmly, without flinging themselves into a grinder, you are suddenly very slow and susceptible to being choked out.

I think your gameplan is relatively built around the defensiveness that Stubborn can engender, with the birds as distraction carnifexes, and that is a solid plan if younkeep birds alive into turn 3, where your arriving deepstrikes have had a turn or two to develop the situation.

I think losing a bird a turn (or worse) is the achilles of the list, since you are thin on bodies already. 7 MM attack bikes (same points investment) would be higher effective firepower, and take longer to remove from the table (not that I am saying take 7 bikes btw).
  • Skywrath likes this

#12
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
About the Az as warlord issue. Im still not sure why you cannot do it and keep the apothecary and chaplain outfitted yhe way you want to. You can take heroes of the chapter twice (once for each of them), make Az the WL and be one point higher in CP cant you? Even if Brill Strat isnt helpful to you, the extra CP works out unless I am miscalculating something.

#13
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels
I think I need to explain what happened in the DG game to give you an idea of how I intend to play this list. The secondaries I took were direct assault (sweep and clear), stubborn defiance and grind them down. 
 
My command squad and my terminator squad as well as the IC and Champion were in deepstrike (the melee terminator squad with chainfists). One of the terminator squads was scoring Stubborn defiance, and my other infiltrators nabbed the other point, due to their deployment shenanigans. Azrael/Apothecary/5m Inceptor squads were with the terminator squad out of LoS. Dark Talons zipped up the board, got very unlucky with the amount of shots, and managed to kill a 3m deathshroud squad with the rift cannon, while the hurricane bolters went into the poxwalkers trying to take me off the centre objective. Unfortunately I :cuss up there because his DP had wings (even though the opponent clearly told me he had them) and luckily I rolled a whole bunch of 6's and saved my Dark Talons. 
 
In T2, i brought my Champion on the DP, IC next to him and the other terminator squad to deal with the threat of the myophic blighauler castle. My Inceptors zipped up the board and now had line of sight and range on a PBC, but standing close to 3" of Azrael with his 4+ invuln aura and the 6+ RW Apothecary aura. Azrael gave them full chapter-master re-rolls and they WOTDA'ed the PBC into the next game. The injured Dark Talon was left on 1, dropped a stasis bomb on the other squad of deathshroud next to it, and flew off the board. The other dark Talon pivoted, shot it's rift cannon at something (don't remember what) and chunked at the poxwalkers. The DW squad on deepstrike was eyeing the blob of myophic blighthaulers/PBC's for some melee goodness. I got all my charges off - DW Champion went into the character and got it down to 1W left, my IC went into the DP/Blightshroud and split his attacks, whiffing horribly, my terminators went into the PBC, netting me my grind and killing it. 
 
So based off those two paragraphs that's how I intend to play this game - use my DS as a way of dealing with threats in a semi-aggressive manner. Was my secondary choice correct in this game? Eh, grind didn't work out as well as it did, probably should have went either with oaths or Martial Interdiction. But yeah, this list ideas has evolved since I posted my hypothetical way of playing it, with this being the more correct way of playing them. 
 
With regards to the Dark Talons - actually not really. They are there to divert fire, the real threat comes from the Inceptors/Champion/and the 2 DW squads in reserve. I'm more or less fine keeping them alive until T3, then afterwards they are there just to harass things. Seeing how my luck with contemptors with volkites is spectacularly :cuss, I thought if my list idea is mobile threat - then the Dark Talons even on average do more MW than the contemptors, just minus the re-rolls, but with a better invuln save. Plus they fly, so they can ignore the LoS rules, which the contemptors need. You are correct they aren't durable, but I'd argue they are more durable than the contemptors. Ironically though, if the player wraps his characters in a bubble, that plays to my needs perfectly. Then T2 I drop the two Deathwing squads and the champion/IC and then go ham with my Dark Talons/Deathstar.
 
You are correct though that this list falls flat on it's face if the enemy unit has flyers. The only way I can deal with flyers is with my plasceptors or with the Two Dark Talons, which suffer because every faction has access for a 5+ FNP on a vehicle for MW. But your second last sentence is exactly how I played my list, with a few changes. I don't have MM bikes honestly - and I really really can't justify dropping 50 AUD on each bike - unless there is a file that can be printed. 
 
As for the business of the Hero of the Chapter - where does it say that, because that bit I did not know. The wording of the hero of the chapter implies that it can be taken once only per game, but if you can do it twice, then that opens up a whole range of possibilities. But yes, you would be correct, that it would be 1CP more. 


#14
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
Unless DA has some odd restriction, you can take HoTC twice.

Tracking your intent for the list. You do seem to use the dark talons as distraction pressure. Looks like you managed to keep both alive through turn 1, which obviously helps a great deal.

#15
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
Each Warlord Trait in your army must be unique (if randomly generated, re-roll duplicate results), and you cannot use this Stratagem to give a model two Warlord Traits. You can only use this Stratagem once, unless you are playing a Strike Force battle (in which case, you can use this Stratagem twice) or an Onslaught battle (in which case, you can use this Stratagem three times).

#16
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Well then I'm gobsmacked how I missed such as simple detail - thanks for making me aware of it!


  • Lukoi likes this

#17
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
Anytime!

#18
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,843 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights | Dark Angels

Back onto business - based on how I outlined to how to play this list - are there any further recommendations you can make?



#19
Lukoi

Lukoi

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 213 posts
  • Faction: Smoke Keshik (RG Successor)
None from me. I think you get my concerns, and you are approaching matches self aware. I hope to hear how it went for you in the next tourney, as I am learning too.
  • Skywrath and Pizinskus78 like this




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users