115 replies to this topic

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Well. We are getting what are essentially the most disliked style of rules to date. Necron protocols, custodes style. I will premise that I am NOT a fan of this even if the rules themselves are flavorful. It makes Custodes look too cohesive as a fighting force making them "soldiers" not individuals.

[Captain Idaho]

At first I thought they were like the Necron Protocols, but there are some key differences that actually might make them more useful at least:

• They aren't tied to characters or Warlord choices.
• They progress like Doctrines but we can hold one off by selecting the other stance.

Ultimately I'm not a huge fan either. Too much book keeping and the benefits look marginal for something so easy to use at the wrong time.

[dice4thedicegod]

Hopefully there’s a stratagem to let a unit pick a different one (or something similar, to show individuality)

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

At first I thought they were like the Necron Protocols, but there are some key differences that actually might make them more useful at least:

• They aren't tied to characters or Warlord choices.
• They progress like Doctrines but we can hold one off by selecting the other stance.

Ultimately I'm not a huge fan either. Too much book keeping and the benefits look marginal for something so easy to use at the wrong time.

All of this is true it doesn't have the same weaknesses. It does seem to give us more abilities but I'm concerned about what we lost to gain it.

It's also very weird thematically locking us in before the game.

[Subtleknife]

Really dislike this. From a fluff perspective it seems completely off and from a design perspective it just seems messy.

[Noserenda]

Yeah its rules for rules sake and pretty terribly unfluffy as currently presented.

Its not an exaggeration to say its killed my interest in the Custodes part of the book entirely.

Edited by Noserenda, 29 November 2021 - 06:46 PM.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Yeah its rules for rules sake and pretty terribly unfluffy as currently presented.

Its not an exaggeration to say its killed my interest in the Custodes part of the book entirely.

Part of what book? Talons? You think gw will get sister of silence right? I have little hope.

[Noserenda]

I am at least still interested in Sisters Worst case it will give me some prompts for my own Codex SoS project  

[Kenzaburo]

I agree with you, brothers. When I read the rules, I first struggled to comprehend them at all, then the dislike set in. Not fluffy, since the fluff always mentioned the Custodes' individuality when fighting as a contrast to marines and their pack of wolves mentality. Rules-wise it's again the annoying book-keeping type. It might be less problematic with Custodes, because they are a small army with not that many rules, still the design of such rules is inelegant, even more so for the very minor and very situational benefit. 

 

As some of you mentioned - if something so easily comprehensible and fluffy like the Invul bonus will suffer because of this, it would be even more of a tragedy. 

 

The discussion around the survey has already shown that stratagems and the bloat of bookkeeping rules seem to be the most disliked part of the current edition, at least around our community here. I find it really annoying.

[ThePenitentOne]

There will DEFINITELY be a strat that lets a unit use a different one from the rest of the army; it would be most versatile if it let them use a different Ka'Tah rather than just use a different stance. There may also be other strats, WL traits or relics that interact with or modify the system.

 

I kinda like this- I think it gives a player layers of choice (pre-game AND per turn), and each choice has consequences. I'm curious about how the specialties of various Shield Hosts interact with this; we know they will- we just don't know how.

 

I don't know Custodes fluff to well, but I feel like tracking this for the army is easy, tracking it per unit would be a nightmare, and simply letting any unit use any of the six abilities at any time would be very OP once you consider the interactions with other rules.

 

As for SoS, they did get them right; they have generic HQ AND Aleya can now be used without Valerian AND Bolter gals are troops!

Edited by ThePenitentOne, 01 December 2021 - 02:55 AM.

[Captain Idaho]

More things I'm confused by reading the articles...

• Mention of withering fire being laid down in reference to Calistus and counting as stationary.

Curious... what fire is that, will it be a rule for the Guardian Spears counting as double shots of stationary? Is there something else coming?

• Talk of new units. Could be corporate wordplay but they mentioned several new units, including the Sisters HQ. We know there is the Champion fella, so that's 2. What else or are they counting special characters being included in the book as the other 2?

I don't hold out hope we'll see a new squad or vehicle really as that would be massive news, but what are they referencing?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

More things I'm confused by reading the articles...

• Mention of withering fire being laid down in reference to Calistus and counting as stationary.

Curious... what fire is that, will it be a rule for the Guardian Spears counting as double shots of stationary? Is there something else coming?

• Talk of new units. Could be corporate wordplay but they mentioned several new units, including the Sisters HQ. We know there is the Champion fella, so that's 2. What else or are they counting special characters being included in the book as the other 2?

I don't hold out hope we'll see a new squad or vehicle really as that would be massive news, but what are they referencing?

Considering the different load out of sisters now determines their unit type (fast troop elite) maybe that's what they mean.


Very lame but from the stance it sounds like we may actually get a bolter discipline.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

https://www.warhamme...es-of-humanity/

Do you like rules? Because we put rules in your rules and stances in your ka'tahs and crud in your bloat!

[Noserenda]

I do wonder if the rules team are being paid by the interaction  

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

110 points for the monster of a blender and character Slayer that is the blade master.

He will absolutely have a spot in my list between dreds.

[Captain Caine 24th]

He does look good. Possible synergy with warlord traits and relics. Did they say if he's HQ or EL? 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

He does look good. Possible synergy with warlord traits and relics. Did they say if he's HQ or EL?

Given the contents of the new box and the reveal sisters now have an HQ...I can't guess. My thought is he has to be a new hq. Bringing us from 3 to 6?

Valoris, Valerian, shield captain, bike captain, blade master and sisters HQ.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't forget Terminator Captain!

He'll definitely have a spot in my lists. I love Champion concepts and having one like him is amazing.

1+ save in melee and only hit on 4s? Sign me up!

[.Torch.]

Trajann
Valerian
Aleya

Shield Captain
Shield Captain on Bike
Shield Captain in Terminator Armour

Blade Champion
Knight-Centura

I think that will be 8 HQ options in total.

I could see the Blade Champion being a HQ or Elite. Probably more competition for him in the Elite slots, but he will still be a lethal choice either way, especially at his points cost.

What slot is the Emperors Champion in? This will probably give us a good indication.

[Captain Idaho]

Chapter Champion for Ultramarines is Elites but the Emperor's Champion I believe is HQ. I'd like him to be HQ personally as points are a premium and they do talk about him leading a small force.

[Captain Idaho]

So it's looking like the Shadow Throne rules have had some disappointing rules leaks. 3+ armour on the Blade Champion is notable, since he's not THAT lightly armoured and with limited numbers, protecting him from shooting won't be easy.

Axes going to Damage 2 is better than D3, but seems barely worth more than a Spear. Obviously wounding Marines on 2+ helps, but there problems as I see it are:

• Any -1 damage unit will laugh at Custodes. Death Guard and Dreadnoughts in particular, which we will have some trouble removing in shooting.

• Against Orks, Necron Destroyers, Gravis armour etc Spears are actually superior than Axes thanks to the AP.

My hope, beyond other things that'll help out these sorts of things is this is just the Shadow Throne rules and the final Codex will see Damage 3 Axes and bump the Blade Champion to 2+ save.

As much as I'll take the Blade Champion for fun, he won't be very survivable on his own. Remember the shooting rules will only protect him if he's got 3 or more infantry near him or a vehicle. Custodes are few in number and it won't be hard split him away from protection or just whittle down his support.

Positives seem to be S5 grenades on the Terminators. That's very welcome.

[Subtleknife]

I just hope this codex isnt kept afloat by faction wide rules buffing mediocre units. It feels bad from a fluff perspective that on their own these elite units dont feel elite. I saw a comment on reddit which said something along the lines of playing SM currently feel like playing kasrkin, playing custodes feels like playing spacemarines and we have two armies (deathwing and dg termies) that feel like playing custodes. Seems spot on atm 🤣

Edited by Subtleknife, 11 December 2021 - 02:55 PM.

[Captain Idaho]

Obviously it remains to be seen what happens with the Codex but that's a difficult position to argue against.

I mean, widespread access to Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields but the most powerful warriors in the galaxy don't get anything that powerful?

[Subtleknife]

Yeah it is odd a smashstody could be fun.

[Captain Idaho]

They just lack so many tools to get a job done at few numbers, they could really do with axes being super powerful. Damage 3 was the minimum we all expected really.