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GW Balance Dataslate: Russ and Orders buff

Balance Dataslate FAQ Leman Russ Orders Astra Militarum Imperial Guard

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#26
Galron

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I wonder how Laurels of Command interacts. Do both orders work on the squads in the aura? Reroll 1s to hit and wound for everyone!


Yes, I am here all the time because this is the last 40k forum I can access from work. You would think they wanted me to do work or something....


#27
Diagramdude

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Up-armored tank ace is now redundant and hopefully gets reworded to "improve armor save by +1"

I am curious to see if the Russ armor buff allows Jury Rigged Repairs to replace Spotter Details as the pairing of choice with the Gunnery Experts custom regiment. With a tech priest or two and five Russes, that's 60 T8 2+ wounds with around 1000 points left over for other stuff, with up to 7 wounds returned to a damaged Russ each turn. 



#28
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Up-armored tank ace is now redundant and hopefully gets reworded to "improve armor save by +1"

I am curious to see if the Russ armor buff allows Jury Rigged Repairs to replace Spotter Details as the pairing of choice with the Gunnery Experts custom regiment. With a tech priest or two and five Russes, that's 60 T8 2+ wounds with around 1000 points left over for other stuff, with up to 7 wounds returned to a damaged Russ each turn.

id prefer remove a point of AP to represent the extra armor making penetration more difficult
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#29
Diagramdude

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With a base 2+ armor wording it +1 save or negating 1AP is semantics

#30
Toadek

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I’m curious how the change to infantry orders is intended to work. 
 
The most common interpretation I’m seeing is that it allows an officer to give an order to a ton of infantry that are close together, and it only costs one use of the Voice of Command Ability.
 
However, looking at RAW, this change might just mean a slight extension of order range instead. 
 
Balance Datasheet Change:
“Each time a <Regiment> unit with the Voice of Command ability issues one of the following orders to a <Regiment> Infantry unit, that same order can be issued to one or more other friendly <Regiment> Infantry units (excluding Officer units) that are within 6" of the unit that order was originally issued to: Take Aim!; First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!; Bring it Down!; Forwards, for the Emperor!; Get Back in the Fight!; Fix Bayonets!”
 
Voice of Command Ability:
“This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6” of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order, pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the table below. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.”
 
The key wording here is issue. An officer can issue one order per turn; the Senior Officer ability allows a model to use the Voice of Command ability twice per turn, you just “Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing a second order.”. Creed’s Supreme Commander ability is worded nearly identically, but gives him three orders. 
 
The Laurels of Command relic states “On a 4+ the bearer can immediately issue another order to the same unit. This does not count towards the maximum number of orders this model may issue each turn.” 
 
Here the wording is almost identical to the balance datasheet, it says that the bearer can issue another order. However, the Laurels of Command specifically mentions that the additional order issued does not count towards the total number of orders that can be issued. 
 
The balance datasheet does not have this line which would imply the additional order issued would still count towards the officer’s total number of orders issued, and the only benefit of the rules change is the range advantage. 
 
The reason the balance datasheet would say “One or more other Infantry units” would be because Creed, and any senior officer with the Master of Command warlord trait can issue three orders per turn; the Inspired Tactics stratagem adds another on top of that. 
 
Another thing to mention is the Cadian warlord trait Superior Tactical Training:
“Roll a dice each time your Warlord issues an order or tank order. On a 4+ that order can affect an additional CADIAN unit of the same type as the original target (INFANTRY or LEMAN RUSS) within 6” of the warlord.”
 
This trait allows a single issued order to apply to multiple squads; it specifically says that the order “can affect an additional Cadian unit”. The officer is only issuing a single order, that order is just affecting two squads.
 
There is actually an errata Q&A that addresses a very similar question here; it highlights the difference between an order being issued, and an order affecting multiple units.
 
Q: How do The Laurels of Command and Superior Tactical Training interact? For example, my Warlord is a Cadian Company Commander and I give him The Laurels of Command and the Superior Tactical Training Warlord Trait. How many orders is he potentially allowed to issue each turn, and how many units can those orders affect? 
 
A: If he issues an order to a Cadian Infantry unit within 6" (unit A) using his Voice of Command ability, first roll a dice for Superior Tactical Training; on a 4+, you can pick another Cadian Infantry unit (unit B) within 6" for that order to affect. Then roll a dice for The Laurels of Command; on a 4+ he can issue a second order to the first unit (unit A). You can then roll again for Superior Tactical Training; on a 4+, you can pick another Cadian Infantry unit within 6" for the second order to affect (this does not have to be unit B, but can be). Note that when you use Superior Tactical Training, an order is not issued – rather, an already issued order affects an additional unit. So you cannot use The Laurels of Command to generate further orders as a result of using Superior Tactical Training, but you can use Superior Tactical Training to make secondary orders caused by The Laurels of Command affect an additional unit.
 
 
 
All that said, this is RAW semantics and the datasheet change could be intended to work the way most people think it does. 
 
Having a situational 6” buff to order range would be pretty underwhelming to include in a balance datasheet that otherwise has pretty significant buffs and nerfs. You could definitely argue that the RAI here is to have a single order affect many squads. 


#31
Diagramdude

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Think you’re looking a gift horse too closely in the mouth Toadek. Plus, strictly RAW the wording of “that same order can be issued to one or more” and “that order was originally issued to” are clearly communicating that a separate “same order” copying procedure is now in effect independent of the “original” officer using voice of command to issue the “original order”

“One or more” also clinches that this is a separate effect from voice of command, even if a senior officer can use voice of command multiple times those are all separate instances none of which allow “that same order” to be issued to “one or more” units.
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#32
Commisar Necros

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I'm pretty excited to give these a try. 2+ saves on the Russ will help, and I lucked out by waiting til tomorrow to get a third flyer. I run a lot of officers to get orders and this will save me quite a bit each game being able to break my lines into "platoons" without having to dedicate a bunch of officers to a feint. I think it opens a lot of options in list building by giving the basic building blocks of guard and giving them a buff without messing with points or special rules. Since the codex is nowhere in sight, ill take what I can get here to fight off my playgroup.(Admech, Drukhari, deathguard, and Orks. Pity my guardsmen, for their enemies will not.). I think its pretty likely to get an FAQ quick about the improved armor tank ace ability and how laurels will work, but really they should have thought of that ahead of time.

 

For the codex in the future this brings me some hope though. This is a good method to give the feel of platoons working together without creating a special force organization like the old model that 3rd and 4th had. That could get confusing explaining what squad is from what platoon, and then all the dead weight from all the command squads. I would still like to see some rewards for having multiple battalions of infantry or a way to make a brigade without vehicles, but this helps out without going overboard.



#33
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I'm pretty excited to give these a try. 2+ saves on the Russ will help, and I lucked out by waiting til tomorrow to get a third flyer. I run a lot of officers to get orders and this will save me quite a bit each game being able to break my lines into "platoons" without having to dedicate a bunch of officers to a feint. I think it opens a lot of options in list building by giving the basic building blocks of guard and giving them a buff without messing with points or special rules. Since the codex is nowhere in sight, ill take what I can get here to fight off my playgroup.(Admech, Drukhari, deathguard, and Orks. Pity my guardsmen, for their enemies will not.). I think its pretty likely to get an FAQ quick about the improved armor tank ace ability and how laurels will work, but really they should have thought of that ahead of time.

For the codex in the future this brings me some hope though. This is a good method to give the feel of platoons working together without creating a special force organization like the old model that 3rd and 4th had. That could get confusing explaining what squad is from what platoon, and then all the dead weight from all the command squads. I would still like to see some rewards for having multiple battalions of infantry or a way to make a brigade without vehicles, but this helps out without going overboard.

i think going for a bit more of a platoon structure might have been the goal with this.
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#34
Diagramdude

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There are two interesting and relevant edge cases for the new infantry orders that will hopefully get FAQed ASAP

1. Raw Recruits means conscripts only take orders on a 4+ “when an officer uses the Voice of Command ability to issue an order to this unit.” Would they have to roll a 4+ if they are copying the order from a nearby unit of competent soldiers? Are they being issued a direct order by an officer with the voice of command ability or is a new mechanic at play? Currently Superior Tactical Training can bypass raw recruits as the conscripts becomes secondary beneficiary without being the actual order target. Will these be ruled similarly?

2. Master of Command Commissars are RAW unable to use this new rule as they are not REGIMENT units, however the ancient wording of the trait intended for MoC Commissars to be even better than regular regiment officers at issuing orders regardless of regiment. “ If your Warlord is a COMMISSAR, it can issue an order to any < REGIMENT> INFANTRY unit (irrespective of what regiment that unit is from – e.g. MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, CADIAN, etc.)” Fluff would demand that all nearby units would obey Yarrick’s orders with alacrity. Hopefully Master of Command Commissars are FAQed to join in the fun, as they are another way to bypass the raw recruits rule and would pair nicely in a patrol with a few 10 man units of Iotan Dragon hotshot lasgun scions who mostly use FRSRF anyway.

Edited by Diagramdude, 11 November 2021 - 03:34 AM.


#35
Warhead01

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There are two interesting and relevant edge cases for the new infantry orders that will hopefully get FAQed ASAP

1. Raw Recruits means conscripts only take orders on a 4+ “when an officer uses the Voice of Command ability to issue an order to this unit.” Would they have to roll a 4+ if they are copying the order from a nearby unit of competent soldiers? Are they being issued a direct order by an officer with the voice of command ability or is a new mechanic at play? Currently Superior Tactical Training can bypass raw recruits as the conscripts becomes secondary beneficiary without being the actual order target. Will these be ruled similarly?

2. Master of Command Commissars are RAW unable to use this new rule as they are not REGIMENT units, however the ancient wording of the trait intended for MoC Commissars to be even better than regular regiment officers at issuing orders regardless of regiment. “ If your Warlord is a COMMISSAR, it can issue an order to any < REGIMENT> INFANTRY unit (irrespective of what regiment that unit is from – e.g. MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, CADIAN, etc.)” Fluff would demand that all nearby units would obey Yarrick’s orders with alacrity. Hopefully Master of Command Commissars are FAQed to join in the fun, as they are another way to bypass the raw recruits rule and would pair nicely in a patrol with a few 10 man units of Iotan Dragon hotshot lasgun scions who mostly use FRSRF anyway.

 

 

In case number 1 why wouldn't we just roll that dice for each unit to see if they also take the order. It seems fairly straight forward to me.

Wonder how long we'll have to wait to find out what was intended. 


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Balance Dataslate, FAQ, Leman Russ, Orders, Astra Militarum, Imperial Guard

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