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Honour the Chapter Stratagem


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9 replies to this topic

#1
Lord_Ikka

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Concerning interactions with the SM Honor the Chapter strat- say your Assault Intercessors wipe out the unit they were engaged with during combat, then consolidate into another enemy unit. If they survive the enemy's melee, can you use the Honor the Chapter strat to fight again and target the enemy unit you consolidated into?


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#2
Lukoi

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Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select one ASSAULT INTERCESSOR SQUAD unit from your army that is within Engagement Range of any enemy units; that unit can fight again.

----charging does not seem to be a requirement, so I would think so. You meet the required condition (within engagement range of any enwmy unit), so long as you did not pull casualities to be out of range.

#3
Closet Skeleton

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If you made a charge move, you can only attack targets you declared a charge against or heroic intervened into. So if everyone you charged is dead then using a stratagem to attack twice doesn't work.

 

But otherwise, eg its your opponent's turn or your unit charged the previous round then yes, you can use it as long as your assault intercessors are in combat.


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#4
Lukoi

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Closet, that is not what the strategem says however. This strategem looks to be a specific exception to a general rule.

#5
Oxydo

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Closet, that is not what the strategem says however. This strategem looks to be a specific exception to a general rule.


The strat provides an exception to the "can't fight more than once" part of the rules, it does not provide an exception to the targeting requirements or it would have explicitly said so.

See the Fight Again section of the Rare Rules chapter, page 88 of the GT21 or page 362 of the CRB.

Edited by Oxydo, 18 November 2021 - 02:40 PM.

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#6
Lukoi

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I've read it.

This strategem appears to specifically state that if you are within engagement range you can fight again. It does not use the phrase "as if it were the fight phase," which from what I can see, removes the charged target requirement.

It says very simply, that the unit is within engagement range of any enemy unit.

It even uses an example at the end of the rule about consolidating into another unit, the enemy gets to fight etc just like he describes above.

"If a rule is used to make a unit fight again at the end of thr Fight Phase, and the unit ends its consolidation move....etc."

Are you saying he could fight again but doesnt have an eligible target (in the previous example), and therefore he doesnt have something to fight?

CRB pg 228 says:

"An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

By that definition, with this strategem, how is the unit he consolidated into not an eligible target, and his assault ints not an eligible unit?

Edit: totally acknowledge I might be missing a step/consideration here, so if so, please help me see it.

Edited by Lukoi, 18 November 2021 - 03:51 PM.


#7
Oxydo

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I've read it.

This strategem appears to specifically state that if you are within engagement range you can fight again. It does not use the phrase "as if it were the fight phase," which from what I can see, removes the charged target requirement.

It says very simply, that the unit is within engagement range of any enemy unit.

It even uses an example at the end of the rule about consolidating into another unit, the enemy gets to fight etc just like he describes above.

"If a rule is used to make a unit fight again at the end of thr Fight Phase, and the unit ends its consolidation move....etc."

Are you saying he could fight again but doesnt have an eligible target (in the previous example), and therefore he doesnt have something to fight?

CRB pg 228 says:

"An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn."

By that definition, with this strategem, how is the unit he consolidated into not an eligible target, and his assault ints not an eligible unit?

Edit: totally acknowledge I might be missing a step/consideration here, so if so, please help me see it.


Considering that the first paragraph on Fight Again explicitely tells you that your unit needs to adhere to all the normal targeting rules and even specifically calls out that a unit that charged can still only target units it declared a charge against or units that Heroically Intervened into them you might want to take a second look.

I think the issue here is that you're confusing units Eligible to Fight/become activated and valid targets, which are two completely different things. Eligible units are just units you're allowed to Fight with/activate in the Fight phase and the only requirements for that is to either be in engagement range or having performed a charge. This means that units can drop in and out of being Eligible depending on units being killed off and Pile In/Consolidate moves. The Fight/activation is also comprised of three different and seperate steps that all have their own requirements, restrictions, and substeps, and being allowed to Fight doesn't automatically allow a unit to perform everything in all those steps.

 

Fight

  • Pile In
  • Make Close Combat Attacks
              Which Models Fight
              Number of Attacks
              Select Targets - This is when you check if your target is valid or not
              Select Weapon
  • Consolidate

 

For instance, if I charge one enemy unit with two of my units, and my first unit kills it I'm still allowed to Fight/activate my second unit and peform pile in, make close combat attacks (but I can't select targets to make those attacks on so no attacks are made regardless of if I pile into a new unit or not) and consolidate despite not being in engagement range of any enemy units.

Honour the Chapter and similar strats just allows you to activate/Fight a unit again provided they are a unit eligible for Fighting. But just because you can Fight with a unit that doesn't mean that that unit is even allowed to make close combat attacks due to lack of targets. It's the same for the other steps too. For example, even if I can Fight with my unit again it might not be allowed to move in Pile In step because all its models are already in base contact with an enemy model.

 

tl dr Fight =//= make close combat attacks.


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#8
Lukoi

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Ok appreciate the feedback!

Will go review eligibility distinctions.

#9
Diagramdude

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Also consider there will be situations where the extra 6” movement you get from piling in and consolidating a second time are worth using the stratagem even if you cannot actually select the enemy unit as a target.

Sometimes the fact that you can’t swing on the target you pile in to is very helpful for wrapping a fragile unit in a triangle lock.

#10
Xenith

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This is pretty clear cut to me. Your unit can fight again, but it can only target eligible units.

 

Use cases are for when you dont wipe a unit, or if you multicharge 2 units, tagging the second with only one model . You wipe one, then you get to pile in and attack the second, or if you get Heroically intervened. 


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