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Auto-wound hit rolls vs Transhuman, Quantum Shielding, ect.


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13 replies to this topic

#1
Kervin40k

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I have noticed a fair amount more rules that auto-wound on a hit roll of X+ and was wondering how that interacts with rules like Transhuman and Quantum Shielding (wound rolls of 1-Y auto fail).  I see it as those hit rolls are lost, because they do not roll to wound and thus you can't get a roll greater than Y, and since the rule says it auto wounds you cannot roll to wound?

 

I have not seen anything official on this, but I am only human so I could have missed something.



#2
Dr_Ruminahui

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Can you provide an example of an rule that wounds automatically on a given wound roll?  One doesn't immediately come to mind.

 

What there are plenty of, though, are rules that inflict mortal wounds on a given roll - however, that roll isn't a "to wound" roll and therefore isn't affected by rules like Transhuman or Quantum Shielding.



#3
killersquid

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Edit

Never mind, misread the question

Edited by killersquid, 15 December 2021 - 07:29 PM.


#4
Trokair

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Can you provide an example of an rule that wounds automatically on a given wound roll?  One doesn't immediately come to mind.


Eldar Witchblade/Singing Spear comes to mind. They always wound on a roll of 2+

And I forget what it is called but one of the GSC HQ has something simmilar agains none Vechiles.


Edit: I appear to have missunderstood, so these are not relevant.

Edited by Trokair, 15 December 2021 - 09:02 PM.

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#5
BluejayJunior

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If it says it automatically wounds on a hit roll of X, then that's what it does. It essentially skips the roll to wound step and goes straight to the armor save step. It ignores things like transhuman physiology because the two do not actually interact in any way. 

You are trying to say that something with a rule that automatically wounds the target, instead automatically fails to wound the target when nothing about the rules would indicate that. 


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#6
BluejayJunior

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Can you provide an example of an rule that wounds automatically on a given wound roll?  One doesn't immediately come to mind.


Eldar Witchblade/Singing Spear comes to mind. They always wound on a roll of 2+

And I forget what it is called but one of the GSC HQ has something simmilar agains none Vechiles.

 

I believe the OP is referring to things like Infiltrators whose weapons automatically wound on a HIT roll of 6. Not things that wound on a wound roll of X. 


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#7
Karhedron

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I believe in cases like this the auto wounding effect takes precedence. If you do not roll to wound then rules that affect the wound roll do not get an opportunity to trigger.
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#8
Skywrath

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Transhuman overrides everything. If the instance was infiltrators, then they wound in the hit roll phase, bypassing the rule. Otherwise you would be wounding on 4s.

For reference: Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, a wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities THAT THE WEAPON or model might have.

Edited by Skywrath, 15 December 2021 - 10:00 PM.


#9
Karhedron

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For reference: Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, a wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities THAT THE WEAPON or model might have.


I disagree. A roll of 1-3 always fails but in this case you don't make a wound roll as the hit wounds automatically. I agree that THP would work against weapons which have a fixed to-wound roll such a Witchblades. But weapons that auto-wound are not affected by THP.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#10
Dr_Ruminahui

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Karhedron, I don't see that Skywraith is saying anything that disagrees with you.

 

From the looks of it, it seems we all agree:

 

1.  If it is an automatic wound that occurs in a different phase (such as from rolling a 6 to hit) Transhuman has no effect, as there is no wound roll.

 

2,  If there is a roll that then generates mortal wounds on a given result (say, exploding vehicles, some psychic powers and stratagems), Transhuman has no effect as there is no wound roll.

 

3.  If there is a wound roll where there would normally be an automatic wound on a given number (witchblades wounding on a 2+) Transhuman would prevent that wound if the roll is a 1-3, as it cancels out other rules that would apply to the wound roll that would otherwise make it wound.

 

tl:dr  - if there is no roll to wound that occurs after the roll to hit, Transhuman can't trigger as there would be no to wound roll of 1-3 to trigger it.  If there is a rules that would make a to wound roll pass on a 1-3 (whether from an automatic wound on a given wound roll, based on the comparison of S v T or from a bonus to the roll), Transhuman prevents that from occuring.


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#11
GrinNfool

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For wounding on a hit transhuman doesn't matter you just wound, makes no difference because you never roll.  This means they go straight to the save, think of it like auto hit... you wouldn't question if you need to roll a dice to see if any of your flamer shots would have missed.  Auto wound is just go straight to the save.

 

If you are worried about conflicting rules then...

 

I believe this would be covered under chapter approved 2021 "Attacker's Priority" bottom middle of page 88. 

 

"When resolving attacks you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply - for example, when an attacking model with an ability  that enables it to always score a hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability  that states it can only be hit on a 6+.  When this happens, the attacking model's rule takes precedence." 

Bullet point "If an attacking model and target unit have conflicting rules the attacking model's rules take precedence."

 

Pretty cut and dry there if rules conflict the attacking model's rule overwrites.

 

So if you say have a rule that says you always wound on a hit roll of 2 and your opponent had some rule that says can't be wounded... you would still wound them on the basis of attackers priority alone.


Edited by GrinNfool, 16 December 2021 - 05:32 AM.

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#12
phandaal

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For wounding on a hit transhuman doesn't matter you just wound, makes no difference because you never roll.  This means they go straight to the save, think of it like auto hit... you wouldn't question if you need to roll a dice to see if any of your flamer shots would have missed.  Auto wound is just go straight to the save.

 

If you are worried about conflicting rules then...

 

I believe this would be covered under chapter approved 2021 "Attacker's Priority" bottom middle of page 88. 

 

"When resolving attacks you'll occasionally find that two rules cannot both apply - for example, when an attacking model with an ability  that enables it to always score a hit on a 2+ targets a model that has an ability  that states it can only be hit on a 6+.  When this happens, the attacking model's rule takes precedence." 

Bullet point "If an attacking model and target unit have conflicting rules the attacking model's rules take precedence."

 

Pretty cut and dry there if rules conflict the attacking model's rule overwrites.

 

So if you say have a rule that says you always wound on a hit roll of 2 and your opponent had some rule that says can't be wounded... you would still wound them on the basis of attackers priority alone.

 

Exactly this. If any rule is an exception, it will say so. For example - Inner Circle specifically notes that it takes precedence over other rules that apply to wound rolls. Otherwise, attacker has priority.

 

And in general: if you skip a dice roll, effects that might cause you to fail a roll do not "go off" because there never was a roll in the first place. Applies to effects that auto-pass morale, auto-hit, etc.



#13
Cheex

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Transhuman:

 

Until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have.

 

The first "auto wound" rule that came to mind was AdMech Radium weapons (Skitarii Vanguard):

 

Each time an attack is made with this weapon against an enemy unit (excluding VEHICLE units), an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.

 

Transhuman triggers each time an attack is made against the unit, and applies an effect to the wound roll of that attack. If there is no wound roll, then Transhuman has no effect.


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#14
Xenith

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Things that auto wound on a hit, do not roll to wound, so are not affected by rules that affect the wound roll. 


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