Horus Heresy novel Angels of Caliban question

[Helias_Tancred]

One of my favorite novels in the series. I have a couple questions ....

 

The novel does a great job showing that whoever was Cypher then, was quite a guarded secret. But the identity is never revealed. Who was it? I've heard rumors it was a Knight of Lupus, but who? Was there a surviving member? It doesn't make sense given what they did, vs the fact the Watchers were on his side?

 

 

[Brother Immolator]

There are only hints as to who he was, but as far as I remember its on another novel and I cant remember which one it was. Either Decent of Angels or Luther (I read those back to back and I am mixing events). There is a discussion saying that the Lion had evey good reason to put the last survivor of the knights of Lupus into that position, but its not something thats confirmed i think. What surprised me most, was that he wielded plasma & bolt pistol, the trademark of the known Cypher, but pretty much its certain its not him. Edited December 18, 2021 by Brother Immolator

[Helias_Tancred]

If it was a last remaining Knight of Lupus, there's no lore or mention of a situation where Zahariel would have recognized him? And the Lupus Knights followed Chaos, whereas the Cypher Zahariel bested was supported by Watchers in the Dark and was very anti-chaos.

[Brother Immolator]

If it was a last remaining Knight of Lupus, there's no lore or mention of a situation where Zahariel would have recognized him? And the Lupus Knights followed Chaos, whereas the Cypher Zahariel bested was supported by Watchers in the Dark and was very anti-chaos.

No not strictly. If I recall they wanted to use chaos and the beasts for the benefit of Caliban (or their view of a benefit thereoff), they were not dedicated chaos worshipers (think something akin to Luther). Also that particular knight was one of their youngest and after the dissolution of their order he took to becoming a knight errant and was questing as a rogue.

 

 

If it was a last remaining Knight of Lupus, there's no lore or mention of a situation where Zahariel would have recognized him? And the Lupus Knights followed Chaos, whereas the Cypher Zahariel bested was supported by Watchers in the Dark and was very anti-chaos.

It was mentioned in angels of Caliban, there is a brief flicker of recognition before killing him, taking his mask and role. Also remember that the current Cypher (who by all accounts is Zahariel, unless proven otherwise) is/was an kinda unintentional chaos sorcerer (and in fact even in current events he is known to team up or use chaos) and still is been helped by the watchers.

Cypher is a mess currently. One intended to be as such so nothing is assured.

 

EDIT: Cant remember how to use spoilers.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[lansalt]

There's a very good theory out there about Cypher actually being...

...Omegon. No really, it has a lot of merit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/aq654x/the_current_cypher_is_omegon/
The fact that he rescued Guilliman and tried to get an audience with the Emperor seals it for me.

[mc warhammer]

i'm always fascinated by theories that use no actual evidence or specific hints but instead untilise vague similarities between things. consider me fascinated here

[Noserenda]

I mean if the original Cypher wasnt using those pistols it might be a bit obvious we was going to bite it :D 

That said it certainly seeeeems like the 40k Cypher is not a powerful psyker so we may see another change on that front.

My pet theory is that its Sevatar ;) 

[DarkChaplain]

We're still in for a surprise regarding Zahariel and Holguin, at any rate. There's also the matter of Loken and "Cypher" (as implied by his iconography) in Grey Angel.

 

I simply do not believe that Zahariel, who currently holds the rank in the Heresy, is the same as 40k Cypher. At all. Holguin, meanwhile, has the Lionsword, broken as it is.

 

Chances are, we won't be getting answers about who Cypher is, or was, up until Gav's intended Caliban novel set after the Siege. We might not get it for years to come, though, but the Luther novel on top of the shorts and flashbacks from Legacy of Caliban add a lot of potential threads to be spun here.

 

There's also the possibility that Zahariel is actually at Terra, with the DA fleet, now...

[lansalt]

The Cypher in Grey Angel seems to fit the former Knight of Lupus before it was killed by Zahariel.

I also don't expect straight answers about his identity (no fun in that!), but mocking the speculation about him that I posted above without adressing the many points in that reddit thread seems disingenous to me. You may not like it as a plot twist, but it would explain a lot about his behaviour, specially if you also have read the stories featuring those other guys.

[DarkChaplain]

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash. When something is as ludicrous as that particular theory (even before considering stories the OP didn't read, or those published since posting), it's hardly worth bothering with a structured refutation.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash.

I know, I know But let's all try not to anyway

 

 

 

EDIT: Cant remember how to use spoilers.

How to use spoilers can be found in ++ BOLTER AND CHAINSWORD 101 ++ 

[lansalt]

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash. When something is as ludicrous as that particular theory (even before considering stories the OP didn't read, or those published since posting), it's hardly worth bothering with a structured refutation.

I think one should read the many stories featuring the character(s) related to that particular theory before dismissing it out of hand. If anything, it makes much more sense than the usual suspects of DA fans, and trying a structured refutation would make it evident.

It has to be that or a new character we've not met yet.

[DarkChaplain]

 

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash.

I know, I know But let's all try not to anyway

 

 

That's precisely why I didn't respond originally, and kept it brief :')

 

 

 

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash. When something is as ludicrous as that particular theory (even before considering stories the OP didn't read, or those published since posting), it's hardly worth bothering with a structured refutation.

I think one should read the many stories featuring the character(s) related to that particular theory before dismissing it out of hand. If anything, it makes much more sense than the usual suspects of DA fans, and trying a structured refutation would make it evident.

It has to be that or a new character we've not met yet.

 

Oh, but I have. I read pretty much all of the stories mentioned, and more that the OP ignores / weren't published yet. As a result, it's ridiculously easy to dismiss, and makes even less sense. It's simply not worth arguing about.

 

And it all hinges on the tenuous connection between the Cabal and Omegon... something that even the character himself through out of an airlock as far back as Deliverance Lost, while claiming the Watchers in the Dark are supposedly Cabal, too. They're their own thing, representing Caliban and doing their own part to contain the Orouboros, rather than messing about on a galactic scale as part of a cohort of cross-species shamans and prophets to cause a large-scale species extinction event in a gamble to shut down Chaos. Meanwhile, we have perfect explanations about why Alpharius "met" the Lion during Rangdan, and I tell ya, it's not because he's secretly Cypher.

 

Nevermind that making Cypher suddenly Omegon would be like throwing a pile of dung in the face of DA fans.

[lansalt]

And it all hinges on the tenuous connection between the Cabal and Omegon...

 

This is just not true, there's much more. The behaviour of Cypher mirrors closely the ways of the Alpha Legion, and his powers can only be explained by him being somebody way above a legionary since his first appearance after the Heresy. The Sons of the Hydra novel shows that the uncorrupted AL still makes deals with xenos, are secret loyalists playing both sides, Omegon was alive but has been missing for noboby knows how much time, and even ambiguous references in the introduction message by Omegon and the title of the end chapter ("Ouroboros").

 

The Watchers in the Dark fight against Chaos and knew Eldrad, so it follows that they also knew about the Cabal too.  The idea that Omegon became involved with the DA after the Heresy it's not outlandish at all if we have in mind that he fights "for the emperor" and does things the most convoluted way possible. And this would have make contact with the Watchers inevitable.

 

Nevermind that making Cypher suddenly Omegon would be like throwing a pile of dung in the face of DA fans.

 

The day Cypher is revealed to be Omegon will be the worst day ever for a DA fan, but just tuesday for an AL one :-)

 

[Brother Immolator]

Most claims regarding that theory (omegon/alpharius) have been refuted and quite convincingly in that thread (at least as far as I am concerned :p). Also again to my mind, despite Alpharius/Omegon and their legion depicted as closet loyalists, in my heart I knew that this one day will prove wrong :p But I digress and that discussion is not for this thread.

[mc warhammer]

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash. When something is as ludicrous as that particular theory (even before considering stories the OP didn't read, or those published since posting), it's hardly worth bothering with a structured refutation.

it's why scientists refuse to debate flat earthers. not because they're "afraid" or "disingenuous"....it's just...there is nothing to debate.

[mc warhammer]

 

And it all hinges on the tenuous connection between the Cabal and Omegon...

 

This is just not true, there's much more. The behaviour of Cypher mirrors closely the ways of the Alpha Legion, and his powers can only be explained by him being somebody way above a legionary since his first appearance after the Heresy. The Sons of the Hydra novel shows that the uncorrupted AL still makes deals with xenos, are secret loyalists playing both sides, Omegon was alive but has been missing for noboby knows how much time, and even ambiguous references in the introduction message by Omegon and the title of the end chapter ("Ouroboros").

 

The Watchers in the Dark fight against Chaos and knew Eldrad, so it follows that they also knew about the Cabal too.  The idea that Omegon became involved with the DA after the Heresy it's not outlandish at all if we have in mind that he fights "for the emperor" and does things the most convoluted way possible. And this would have make contact with the Watchers inevitable.

 

 

 

this seems to say the theory hinges on the idea that these traits are singularly possessed by omegon and only omegon in the entirety of the 40k universe, and that cypher can not possibly have overlapping or shared characteristics with other characters...so therefore he must be omegon.

 

it's a theory that starts with a conclusion and then retroactively forces rationalisations to build a case rather than following the evidence .

 

[Brother Immolator]

 

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash.

I know, I know But let's all try not to anyway

 

 

 

EDIT: Cant remember how to use spoilers.

How to use spoilers can be found in ++ BOLTER AND CHAINSWORD 101 ++ 

 

I put a like on that but I forgot to thank you. So here it is. Cheers for the heads up friend :)

[Brother Lunkhead]

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I'm temporarily locking this topic while I compose a lengthier post concerning certain nonconstructive comments made here. In the meantime, I ask, nay, insist that we ALL be civil in our comments and observations, if for no other reason than THEMS ARE THE RULES

 

... and in the wise words of those sage philosophers Bill and Ted....

 

 

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Edited December 21, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

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ALLRIGHT FRATERS....... GAME ON 

 

But first a few words about what started this lockdown. A few words like:

 

Keep in mind that it's hard not to mock absolute hogwash. When something is as ludicrous as that particular theory (even before considering stories the OP didn't read, or those published since posting), it's hardly worth bothering with a structured refutation.

 

and

 

it's why scientists refuse to debate flat earthers. not because they're "afraid" or "disingenuous"....it's just...there is nothing to debate.

 

These words were in response to a theory presented by a frater concerning the idea that Cypher is in fact Omegon, Primarch of the Alpha Legion. Controversial to be sure, but a theory, nevertheless. And what is a theory Merriam-Webster has some nifty definitions for the "essential meaning of theory" that I think work well for us here:

 

                                                      1. an idea or set of ideas intended to explain facts or events

                                                      2. an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

                                                      3. the general principals or ideas that relate to a particular subject

 

Since the subject matter in the BL forum concerns the 40K universe, we're not talking about facts (or science). We are however talking about events and ideas that relate to this fictional universe. That gives us a lot of leeway in our discussion of theories... and all theories are welcomed to be discussed, so long as they honor the rules of conduct here at the B&C.

 

What is not welcomed is any comment that constitute what is essentially gatekeeping. No frater or fraters have the right to decide what is worthy of discussion. Gatekeeping here only serves to limit discussion and intimidate fraters who are taking their first tentative steps in becoming more active members here. This kind of behavior should not be tolerated or endorsed by you. It certainly will not be tolerated or endorsed in any way by the B&C staff. If you don't think a topic is worthy of discussion or participation, then don't participate, just pass it by in favor of something you think is worth your time.

 

If anyone takes umbrage with anything I have said here or has questions or concerns, you can PM me or any other member of the moderator team, file a report or take it to the Administratum. Public discussion beyond this statement concerning this incident will not be permitted, nor is it appropriate.

 

The topic is now open for discussion. Keep it thoughtful and keep it friendly 

 

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Edited December 24, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead