17 replies to this topic

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Greetings Wolf-kin!  After a long break from the game I have decided to start playing again.  The last time I played seriously was in 7th edition.  I picked up the SM codex and the SW supplement to start planning my list.  The area where I currently live is very competitive so I will be attending quite a few tournaments.

 

I have seen quite a few posts about list building in 9th.  The general takeaway is that the list should be built around secondaries.  What secondaries are the best to build a list around?  

 

What units are considered compulsory for a competitive list?  I have read a lot about wolf guard with jump packs, storm shields and lighting claws.  

 

Any initial ideas are most welcomed!

 

 

[TiguriusX]

Greetings Wolf-kin! After a long break from the game I have decided to start playing again. The last time I played seriously was in 7th edition. I picked up the SM codex and the SW supplement to start planning my list. The area where I currently live is very competitive so I will be attending quite a few tournaments.

I have seen quite a few posts about list building in 9th. The general takeaway is that the list should be built around secondaries. What secondaries are the best to build a list around?

What units are considered compulsory for a competitive list? I have read a lot about wolf guard with jump packs, storm shields and lighting claws.

Any initial ideas are most welcomed!

The 2022 GT rules are coming out soon with a change to secondary missions

This will cause a shift in the meta so it is hard to say what you should do without knowing the future

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Redemptor dreadnought is, imho, a must take unit. Core, tough, hits like a truck in melee, provides a reasonable fire base and not too pricy @ about 185, so you can bring a couple without compromising your list.

And Welcome back Brother!

Edited by Rune Priest Jbickb, 22 December 2021 - 01:40 AM.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Thanks for the replies!  I think I have narrowed it down to three broad list concepts.  I will wait to see what the 2022 GT rules provide before I move forward with additional purchases but I think the concepts are sound.

 

Concept 1: Fast moving board control.  Jump pack wolf guard, scouts and land speeder storms.  

 

Concept 2: March of the ancients. Redemptors, wulfen dreads and volkite dreads.  This list seems easier to play and low model count.  I do not have any relic contemptors and I feel volkite is primed for a nerf.  I am hesitant to purchase these models.

 

Concept 3: Boots of ground.  Again, lots of jump pack wolf guard with a strong brick of wolf guard terminators to take on the opponent's biggest threats.  This list plays smash mouth 40k and looks to control the center of the board.

 

Again, these are the general concepts that I am considering.

 

Thoughts?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't play competitive, but I would lean more towards the third one, if all of them need you to get a few more things. The jump pack wolf guard and the terminators will serve you pretty well if you pivot to something else, whereas I don't think that's the case with the first one.

[TiguriusX]

IMO terminators are not durable enough to be a brick/anvil

Meta is too lethal right now

Other armies like DA have transhuman and FNP and damage -1 buffs and still cant win with terminators

Some armies can bring models back from the dead making it even harder to wipe termies

People have tools to kill 10 DA termies and 10 TS scarab termies so our WG termies are nothing in comparison (we have none of the buffs i listed above)

Termies are also too slow...hard to get them where they need. Many opponents can ignore the brick and fight elsewhere to focus on scoring instead of killing models

Jump WG are one of our top choices bc they have speed and killing power. Savage strike and reroll wound LCs are awesome

I spend most of my games hiding behind LOS blocking terrain before i charge out. I need to wrap units or tag the shooters to survive to my next turn

i assume anything my opponent can see is dead...so i expose units for trades where i kill and score primary or secondary before dying

Edited by TiguriusX, 22 December 2021 - 04:31 PM.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

IMO terminators are not durable enough to be a brick/anvil

Meta is too lethal right now

Other armies like DA have transhuman and FNP and damage -1 buffs and still cant win with terminators

Some armies can bring models back from the dead making it even harder to wipe termies

People have tools to kill 10 DA termies and 10 TS scarab termies so our WG termies are nothing in comparison (we have none of the buffs i listed above)

Termies are also too slow...hard to get them where they need. Many opponents can ignore the brick and fight elsewhere to focus on scoring instead of killing models

Jump WG are one of our top choices bc they have speed and killing power. Savage strike and reroll wound LCs are awesome

I spend most of my games hiding behind LOS blocking terrain before i charge out. I need to wrap units or tag the shooters to survive to my next turn

i assume anything my opponent can see is dead...so i expose units for trades where i kill and score primary or secondary before dying

I agree with a lot of what you are stating here.  I have watched a few games and observed how lethal it is.  I am leaning towards the first option as it suits my play style.  I like fast moving units that can move wherever they need to move to.  I think I can keep the wolf guard units small enough to hide behind terrain.  I will tinker around with some ideas and post them for feedback.

[TiguriusX]

Look up Jamie Paris and his recent lists in BCP

Top SW player running that concept lately

Scouts in speeder storms with melta and master artisan successor trait

That style is about scoring and playing missions so keep your eye on the prize

He was at the NO open

https://www.goonhamm...he-finish-line/

Here is his BCP entry if you have a paid account to review

https://web.bestcoas...ntId=NtSNLkFSHh

Edited by TiguriusX, 22 December 2021 - 10:36 PM.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think goonhammer is a great resource if you're trying to play competitively, so looking up lists there is a smart ideal.

One thing that I expect to change in space wolf lists moving forward are cyberwolves. I still think they'll have uses but the change to engage on all fronts is gonna hurt them a bit. Same for 2 man company vet squads.

[TiguriusX]

I think goonhammer is a great resource if you're trying to play competitively, so looking up lists there is a smart ideal.

One thing that I expect to change in space wolf lists moving forward are cyberwolves. I still think they'll have uses but the change to engage on all fronts is gonna hurt them a bit. Same for 2 man company vet squads.

gonna be hard to cut them from my lists

even without engage they are excellent objective holders if no enemy artillery and backfield screeners in the corners

I also advance and charge first to eat overwatch

So much utility for the points even after change to engage rules

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Oh I still think they're good. I just don't know if they'll be in every competitive SW list. I can't recall a list on goonhammer tournament reviews that didn't run them.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I have been studying the lists created by Jamie Paris.  I have also watched some of his batreps.  His is the style of list that I like to play.  I played Firehowlers previously and I think his list's rapid play style fits me from both a competitive and fluff perspective.

 

I think cyberwolves still have utility but maybe just one or two.  Skyclaws might be worth considering due to their speed and decent hitting power.  While it is more expensive, they do open up some other options.

 

Definitely a lot of stuff to play test and figure out!

[wulfgar hammerfist]

How are wulfen performing in 9th? I think a pack with frost claws is fairly cheap and hits semi-hard. Maybe useful for clearing chaff or drawing fire?

[TiguriusX]

How are wulfen performing in 9th? I think a pack with frost claws is fairly cheap and hits semi-hard. Maybe useful for clearing chaff or drawing fire?

 

They were nerfed HARD but I still run them.

 

My son bought me a box for my bday so I make an effort to include them in every army.

 

They have 1 trick which is useful in the meta...guaranteed fight on death

 

I run 2 frost claws and 2 TH in my packs so they are good into everything

 

I run them as a successor for double exploding 6s...sometimes they go absolutely bonkers

 

In missions where they have a wall real close to an objective they absolutely dominate

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Thanks for the information.  I think, given the models in my collection, I am going to go with something similar to Jamie Paris.  I think the pending changes to the secondary missions remove the need for the company veterans unless there is some play there I am missing.  Maybe some interaction with the bodyguard keyword makes them worth taking?

 

Here's the list:

 

Master Artisans, Whirlwind of Rage

 

Captain - chapter master upgrade, legendary warrior, combi-melta, lightning claw (frost upgrade), hunter, imperium's sword, jump pack

 

Lieutenant - combi-melta, thunder hammer, hero of the chapter, rites of war, armor of russ, jump pack

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike - master of sanctity, hero of the chapter, wise orator, benediction of fury

 

5 Blood Claws

5 Blood Claws

5 Incursors

 

7 Wolf Guard - 2 combi-meltas, storm shields, lightning claws, 1 thunder hammer, jump packs

7 Wolf Guard - 2 combi-meltas, storm shields, lightning claws, 1 thunder hammer, jump packs

5 Wolf Guard - lightning claws, storm shields, 1 thunder hammer, jump packs

5 Scouts - combi-melta, melta, shotguns

5 Scouts - combi-melta, melta, shotguns

 

Cyberwolf

Cyberwolf

 

6 Long Fangs, cherub, grav-cannon, 4 multi-melta

 

Pod

Land Speeder Storm

Land Speeder Storm

 

This list leaves me with ~118 points to play with.  Initial thoughts are to a) bump up the last wolf guard pack to 7 and add an attack bike, b ) add in a small pack of sky claws for actions and engage, or c) something else entirely.

 

Open to feedback, thanks!

Edited by wulfgar hammerfist, 27 December 2021 - 03:17 AM.

[TiguriusX]

Thanks for the information.  I think, given the models in my collection, I am going to go with something similar to Jamie Paris.  I think the pending changes to the secondary missions remove the need for the company veterans unless there is some play there I am missing.  Maybe some interaction with the bodyguard keyword makes them worth taking?

 

 

 

Bodyguard is for opponents who have no artillery/ignore LOS shooting

 

You can grab an objective using bodyguard that would otherwise be a death sentence for a non HQ

 

 

Bodyguards are safe behind LOS blocking terrain.  The 3" bodyguard bubble and large base of Chaplain touch the objective that is in the open

 

*Don't try this against GK or TS...bodyguard doesn't stop smite

 

As for your list...

 

Not sure I like the large WG units.

7 is an odd squad size.  Did you math hammer it for a specific purpose?  

 

7 models means savage strike costs you 2 CP (I use savage strike all the time with WG)

7 models also opens you to blast rules 

 

What about 1 squad going up to 10 models and keeping the others at 5?

or alternatively...you can drop them all down to 5 and make a skyclaw unit

Barebones skyclaw is a cheap jump unit to grab an early objective and sacrifice while earning points or clearing most chaff

If you have 30 more points to spare you can add a WG Pack leader and give him double LC + thane of the retinue and give him FROST CLAWS

Now that unit is guaranteed shredding chaff and threatening combat units b/c he is 5 attacks at S5 D2 rerolling wounds

 

Good luck with your list!

Hope you report on your battles

 

This is my current test list

 

 

 

Spoiler

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Space Wolves) [109 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Born Heroes , Custom Chapter, Space Wolves Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ Stratagems +

 

A Trophy Bestowed [-1CP]

 

Strategem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

 

Thane of the Retinue [-1CP]

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Company Veterans [3 PL, 44pts]

. Company Veteran: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield

. Company Veteran Sergeant: 2x Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades

 

+ HQ +

 

Chapter Master in Phobos Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 2. Lord of Deceit, Bolt pistol, Camo cloak, Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Combat knife, Frag & Krak grenades, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine, Master-Crafted Weapon, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: 2. Catechism of Fire, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Absolver Bolt pistol, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Hunter, Litany of Hate, Rites of War, Stratagem: Warrior of Legend, The Armour of Russ, Twin Bolt rifle, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]

. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades

. Incursor Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Occulus bolt carbine, Paired combat blades

 

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades

. Incursor Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Occulus bolt carbine, Paired combat blades

 

+ Elites +

 

Wolf Guard [7 PL, 148pts]: Jump Pack

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Thunder hammer

 

Wolf Guard [7 PL, 148pts]: Jump Pack

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw, Thunder hammer

 

Wulfen [8 PL, 157pts]

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Wulfen Frost claws

. 2x Wulfen w/ thunder hammer & storm shield: 2x Storm Shield, 2x Thunder Hammer

. 2x Wulfen w/ Wulfen frost claws: 2x Wulfen Frost claws

 

Wulfen [8 PL, 157pts]

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Wulfen Frost claws

. 2x Wulfen w/ thunder hammer & storm shield: 2x Storm Shield, 2x Thunder Hammer

. 2x Wulfen w/ Wulfen frost claws: 2x Wulfen Frost claws

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]

. Cyberwolf: Teeth and claws

 

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]

. Cyberwolf: Teeth and claws

 

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]

. Cyberwolf: Teeth and claws

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 205pts]: Heavy melta rifle

. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol

. Eradicator Sgt: Bolt pistol

. Eradicator with MM: Bolt pistol, Multi-melta

 

Long Fangs [11 PL, 163pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-cannon

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-cannon

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-cannon

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-cannon

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-cannon

. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades

. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Long Fangs [11 PL, 213pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta

. Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta

. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Morkai's Teeth Bolts

. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter

 

Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [109 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

The original version of my list had skyclaws like I suggested above and was split into 2 patrols

I am currently testing if the extra CP is more useful

 

My meta has big game hunting currently

Thicc city (talos/cronos spam...if you haven't seen it yet oh boy.  T7 D-1 a 6++ and 5+++ FNP on talos/cronos make it real hard to kill)

Nid crusher stampede (all the giant monster nids)

 

In addition to that a list has to be able to handle GK/TS and Sisters

I would love more monster killing tools but I can't skew too heavy into big game hunting or the other lists will drop me

 

I'm hoping to make the T5S2 invitational for the first time

Top 16 players get in

I am currently at #9 and the season ends soon

Hopefully nobody leapfrogs me at the last minute!

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Thanks for the explanation of the bodyguard tactic.  Seems like it could be useful.

 

I went with 7 WG to add the two combi-melta to the packs.  There isn't really any other reason for the size.  I think I will go back to five and just keep them melee focused.

 

Are you getting much mileage out of your eradicators?  They seem fragile to me and the -1 to hit due to heavy is off-putting.  I know there is a stratagem to help with that but CP are precious.  I am keeping the one melta pod so that is already one CP committed.  I'd like to save two for savage strike which only leaves three for situational use in the current list.

 

As for secondaries, I think Oaths is a no-brainer and RND looks solid as well.  Not sure what the third would be but it's probably matchup dependent.  If I keep the speeders I think engage would be a contender.

 

Once I get linked in with the local group I will get some games in and report on my progress.  Right now I am still waiting on my household goods to arrive from the moving company.  Moving during the holidays is rough!

[TiguriusX]

Thanks for the explanation of the bodyguard tactic.  Seems like it could be useful.

 

I went with 7 WG to add the two combi-melta to the packs.  There isn't really any other reason for the size.  I think I will go back to five and just keep them melee focused.

 

Are you getting much mileage out of your eradicators?  They seem fragile to me and the -1 to hit due to heavy is off-putting.  I know there is a stratagem to help with that but CP are precious.  I am keeping the one melta pod so that is already one CP committed.  I'd like to save two for savage strike which only leaves three for situational use in the current list.

 

As for secondaries, I think Oaths is a no-brainer and RND looks solid as well.  Not sure what the third would be but it's probably matchup dependent.  If I keep the speeders I think engage would be a contender.

 

Once I get linked in with the local group I will get some games in and report on my progress.  Right now I am still waiting on my household goods to arrive from the moving company.  Moving during the holidays is rough!

 

Heavy melta eradicators are very useful in the giant kaiju meta.

 

+2 damage at long range

+4 damage up close

 

Ideal area denial unit b/c anything that approaches gets blasted

If they are near the chapter master i don't use keen senses on them.  4's rerolling all hits are good enough

If I NEED to kill something I pop keen senses

 

You know exactly how your list operates.  Keep a focus on those secondaries and you will be just fine