Terraforming Baal secundus

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just saw someone on Reddit say they recall guilliman promising to return secundus to its former glory before the ancient nuclear war or whatever :cussed it up.

 

Never heard or saw this before, can anyone confirm?

[Panzer]

Just saw someone on Reddit say they recall guilliman promising to return secundus to its former glory before the ancient nuclear war or whatever it up.

 

Never heard or saw this before, can anyone confirm?

Guilliman didn't promise any such thing. He told Dante to make it happen since there was no point in letting the people suffer. It doesn't make for stronger Marines or anything like that and they deserve better. It's at the end of Devastation of Baal.

[Blindhamster]

They have the tech, they simply weren't using it apparently.

[BloodyB]

I recall it being something of a statement regarding forging something beautiful from something of little worth. The past few codices certainly made a point of saying how incredible a transformation it was, to go from a rad-sickened runt to a mighty space marine by the grace of Sanguinius. I think it was mentioned somewhere that Sanguinius chose not to terraform either Baal Secundus. It makes sense though, the more people a planet can support, the more material can be produced and the more potential recruits available.

[Blindhamster]

it actually was terraformed, but it got made back into a wasteland

[Helias_Tancred]

it actually was terraformed, but it got made back into a wasteland

 

lmao.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

Just saw someone on Reddit say they recall guilliman promising to return secundus to its former glory before the ancient nuclear war or whatever it up.

 

Never heard or saw this before, can anyone confirm?

Guilliman didn't promise any such thing. He told Dante to make it happen since there was no point in letting the people suffer. It doesn't make for stronger Marines or anything like that and they deserve better. It's at the end of Devastation of Baal.

This is interesting. On the one hand I agree, making a marine doesn't magically make you better. But I also feel ambition and desire do play a part in it.

 

I have no problem getting rid of the Rad scorpions for trees and bees

[Panzer]

 

 

Just saw someone on Reddit say they recall guilliman promising to return secundus to its former glory before the ancient nuclear war or whatever it up.

 

Never heard or saw this before, can anyone confirm?

Guilliman didn't promise any such thing. He told Dante to make it happen since there was no point in letting the people suffer. It doesn't make for stronger Marines or anything like that and they deserve better. It's at the end of Devastation of Baal.

This is interesting. On the one hand I agree, making a marine doesn't magically make you better. But I also feel ambition and desire do play a part in it.

 

I have no problem getting rid of the Rad scorpions for trees and bees

 

Yeah but on the other hand there are much much less people with that ambition and desire when you barely can survive the travel to the place where you get tested. Or even survive long enough to get old enough. Ultramarines have fairly advanced and civilized worlds and no lack of capable Marines. ^^

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

Just saw someone on Reddit say they recall guilliman promising to return secundus to its former glory before the ancient nuclear war or whatever it up.

 

Never heard or saw this before, can anyone confirm?

Guilliman didn't promise any such thing. He told Dante to make it happen since there was no point in letting the people suffer. It doesn't make for stronger Marines or anything like that and they deserve better. It's at the end of Devastation of Baal.

This is interesting. On the one hand I agree, making a marine doesn't magically make you better. But I also feel ambition and desire do play a part in it.

 

I have no problem getting rid of the Rad scorpions for trees and bees

Yeah but on the other hand there are much much less people with that ambition and desire when you barely can survive the travel to the place where you get tested. Or even survive long enough to get old enough. Ultramarines have fairly advanced and civilized worlds and no lack of capable Marines. ^^

Rank and file sure. But following Dante's background can we believe he would be the same if he cMe from a paradise? Most great warriors were more.

 

What makes a marine greater than his peers when all are on the same playing field. That's the question.

[Helias_Tancred]

Well let's be honest here, in the end this is a situation of old marine lore being slowly changed to accommodate the new marine lore.

 

With Guilliman back, and he's getting out and seeing Daddy's empire he's realizing that what he established in the 500 Worlds of Ultramar is better for Imperial citizenry, and arguably as good for producing space marines. It's a clash of traditions. It's also GW realizing they want to lay some future roadwork for mixing things up and changing the narrative. Baal, and the context of its situation and the current Blood Angel situation is a perfect place to start. Personally I'm neutral on it, the Ultramarines have had no shortage of skilled and fierce space marines. I recall reading the first part of the Horus Heresy novel Pharos, where a much smaller unit of Ultramarines reaped mass casualties on a numerical superior Night Lords force before the latter wiped them out .... and it came down to training, skill, and their collective backgrounds.

 

I'm cool with it. 

[Xenith]

Thanks, everyone who wanted the story to be moved on 

 

Yea, I hope he leaves it as a wasteland. There's a pathos to it. Blood Angels aren't ultramarines.

[MegaVolt87]

Tell RG to terraform Calth because it has a depressing climate. 

[Majkhel]

In a way, current situation in which Blood Angels are cut-off from the larger Empire and in a generally hostile territory suits them well if you remember IXth Legion origins. BA geneseed is one of the most adaptable and strong (or perhaps I should say: aggressive). After all it is able to change a rad-withered wretch of a human into a being of almost perfect physical traits.
In terms of recruit's initial physical traits, it doesn't really matter from where he comes. Spiritual and mental traits are more important. These are usually better developed with hardships.

[Helias_Tancred]

In a way, current situation in which Blood Angels are cut-off from the larger Empire and in a generally hostile territory suits them well if you remember IXth Legion origins. BA geneseed is one of the most adaptable and strong (or perhaps I should say: aggressive). After all it is able to change a rad-withered wretch of a human into a being of almost perfect physical traits.

In terms of recruit's initial physical traits, it doesn't really matter from where he comes. Spiritual and mental traits are more important. These are usually better developed with hardships.

 

I'm cool with Baal remaining like it is, I'm also fine with it eventually being terraformed and changing. That being said being said I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here, and point out how little a native Baalites pre-space marine condition remains with him both mentally, and especially physically after he makes the transformation? It seems that marine chapters have always preferred humans living in death-world conditions so they would be hardy and strong to pass the crazy tests .... but once they become space marines, its like a new sheet of paper. So does it still matter then?

 

Also given that the two Baal populated moons are not overrun with humans given how harsh the conditions are, wouldn't a terraformed Baal allow the Blood Angels to maintain a larger induction rate to better offset the loss of marines to normal attrition and the Black Rage?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[Majkhel]

I'm fine with both futures for Baal as well.
As for what remains of a person after transformation into a space marine - not much in the end. But it is a process. I feel that the 'clean slate' approach is an oversimplification. 
Dante books give an interesting insight into space marine's memories and the traditional way of Blood Angels' creation - BA recruits starts both physical and mental training way before they get any astartes implants and begin their physical transformation. And while their pre-transformation memories would often fade with time, it's a slow process. It is a logical assumption that their 'new' personalities develop based on their 'old' ones. While transformation is obviously a shock (and for Blood Angles more than for any other lineage as they complete 99% of physical transformation in a "single" step) the way a recruit deals with it will be based as much on his existing mental condition as on the training and care he receives afterwards. In this view, having a recruit coming from a harsh environment is still beneficial as 'hard times breed hard people'.

But I totally agree with the very good Ultramarines' example - a good mentally suitable candidate can also be 'produced' by means of education and specific culture values. After all whole Imperium's population is in a constant state of war and danger and war-focused indoctrination even if we consider Ultramar and 500 Worlds to be relatively peaceful and stable.

A larger pool of recruits being an obvious advantage is a very good point and one that GW has blatantly overlooked over the years. We have a noble Blood Angels chapter being a chapter in a constant dying out state due to Flaw. Additionally they are handicapping themselves by recruiting only from a very small population. To add insult to injury Blood Angels are doing practically nothing to help this population survive their day-to-day struggles and in fact quite the opposite - they take away some of their healthier and strongest youths (the future of said population) and allow most of them to just kill themselves in the process.... An obvious logical error. But as it's just one of many across the 40k universe it might just as well be considered in-line with the universe's idea

Edited January 19, 2022 by Majkhel

[Blindhamster]

pretty sure sanguinius wouldn't like what "his" people are going through

[Dont-Be-Haten]

pretty sure sanguinius wouldn't like what "his" people are going through

Agreed. However we can never forget what the Imperial engine did to those of caliban...

[Helias_Tancred]

 

pretty sure sanguinius wouldn't like what "his" people are going through

Agreed. However we can never forget what the Imperial engine did to those of caliban...

 

 

Yeah. Good point. 

[Djangomatic82]

I was under the assumption from the HH black book that the BA gene seed needed a more genetically unstable/maleable stock than others (IE: radiation damaged, high mutation rate DNA) than other chapters because of the extreme rewrite of the original host DNA code that BA geneseed does and in the one year time span, versus the decades other legions need.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I was under the assumption from the HH black book that the BA gene seed needed a more genetically unstable/maleable stock than others (IE: radiation damaged, high mutation rate DNA) than other chapters because of the extreme rewrite of the original host DNA code that BA geneseed does and in the one year time span, versus the decades other legions need.

If that were true there wouldn't be successors from the world's they are from. Flesh tearers notably, since Cretacia is basically a death world with large dinosaurs.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Blindhamster]

I was under the assumption from the HH black book that the BA gene seed needed a more genetically unstable/maleable stock than others (IE: radiation damaged, high mutation rate DNA) than other chapters because of the extreme rewrite of the original host DNA code that BA geneseed does and in the one year time span, versus the decades other legions need.

the horus heresy black books state the exact opposite. the BA gene seed can convert just about anyone and it does so more quickly, they were notorious for their ability to replenish incredibly quickly early crusade era.