63 replies to this topic

[Balerion84]

Yes, that's all very nice and noble, "accepting the challenge of building a new list", but the problem is, there's not that many options for DG to build lists. Especially if you want to have a good game. PMs were always overcosted for what they bring even in casual games (the ones I play). Making the only other options more expensive won't make PMs cheaper or more viable.

We are talking here about nonsensical points changes for an army that was already running out of steam a few months ago. The options for building lists got even worse now. So you can accept all the challenges you like, the fact is, as a dg player, my options are now worse than before.

I'd looove to play PMs instead of poxwalker hordes. I don't particularly like poxwalkers. But I can't, because PMs always failed me. So now I either stick with poxwalkers and get even less models on the table to make up the difference in codex power or I go the way of vehicle spam and then we are at the other side of the same coin as horde spam.

And I don't get the point of bringing up complaints from people with 8th codexes to show dg players, that some armies are worse off? What does that have to do with anything?
You can compare dg situation with necrons or SM and that'd be fine, because they all are in not so great place (necrons at least got 2 rounds of significant buffs).
CSM doesn't matter to me now. We can speak about complaints regarding csm after they get their new codex.

EDIT: CSM did MUCH better than DG at LVO. Around 50% win rate to 41% for DG. That's BEFORE these new points. Let that sink in.

Edited by Balerion84, 05 February 2022 - 09:44 PM.

[Wulf Vengis]

The sales machine that is GW cares not about complaints, only for the income unhappy players will pour into a new faction once their chosen faction is made unplayable.

[Khornestar]

++ As with any time an argument turns into personal/group insults being flung around, we have a problem. As a result, some posts have been hidden. As I review the thread, it may be necessary to hide more.

 

Debates involve challenging the ideas of others, not insulting them because they disagree. Every frater on this forum deserves respect, and ad hominem attacks are not acceptable. 

 

Please see the Rules of the Bolter & Chainsword, in case you aren't familiar with them.

 

We all get heated, it happens. If you need to take a break and cool off, please do so.

 

Consider this the one and only warning for this thread.  Chainaxe is revving with anticipation. ++

Edited by Khornestar, 08 February 2022 - 12:31 AM.

[Bulwyf]

I am not going to engage in any personal attacks or rude posting. Never have, never will.

 

I will say that asking all DG players to copy and paste a well known tournie player is a bit much. I have zero interest in running demons in my Death Guard army. It is DEATH GUARD not Nurgle demons. I still use PMs because I like them. They need help. This faction needs help. The win rate for DG has been consistently one of the lowest in all the armies for a very long time now. 

 

These point changes only made matters worse for DG players. I don't play tournies. I only play friendly games that are "power fluff" where we  play 2k matched play and try not to bring the cheesiest lists. Even in this scenario my options are severely limited. DG has one of the smallest amount of options of any army to actually field in a game. So when iconic units like terminators go up and our troop option in desperate need of a points reduction gets nothing...that is going to bring about criticism. 

 

Telling people to basically grin and bear it or copy a tournie player's list is hardly constructive.

[Iron Sage]

 

Eh... Bloody Legionnare, do you play DG or some other faction?

I just dusted off my dg after a few months, to try out the new points against my own custodes. Opponent decided to try Shadowkeepers. It was depressing.

I honestly don't understand the points changes... if PMs went down at the same time while termies and poxwalkers went up, then sure, fine... I'm really not sure how I'm going to play my dg, I don't have transports for PMs and even then it's another big tax on an already expensive unit that goes down so easily.

If GW wants people to play more PMs, make them cheaper for goodness sake. Making our only viable options more expensive (or ineligible for TTL) is just going make the army weaker. If I didn't play PMs before, why would I do it now if they are still the same?
It just decreases the options I have.

Frustrating.

 

I have about 13 Armies in my 40k collection. I no longer play the army I started with (Space Wolves) because I do not like how they have played from 7th edition on and have decided to focus on different collections/armies. The army I'd like to play the most is KDK which I no longer have the ability to play at all.. speaking of being salty and not being able to use a collection of models I've spent a lot of time painting and collecting. 

All of the armies in my collection are factions I *wanted* to collect and play and have nothing to do with their competitive potential. 

 

Competitive 40k meta is cyclical.. regardless of how you think your army plays there's always another faction in the game where that exact player base community is doing just as much if not more complaining than what we see here. DG are head and shoulders above what the majority of CSM has been for multiple editions now. They are in a much better place than several C:SM armies are, now. Again.. I'm saying competitively. None of the point changes mean you can't enjoy good games with friends. What blows my mind is there's worse moaning coming from here about the changes than I see from people who *actually* go to the big events and play on a consistent basis. 

 

I don't think the point changes are that big of a deal other than for the Deathshroud, which does suck.. sure. I see it as an opportunity to try new things out that other players refuse to try because hordes of poxwalkers look better on paper than hordes of PMs do. I'd much rather accept the challenge of building a new list than sticking to what other people tell me I need to do just to have a playable DG army. I also don't give a  about what most of the people on this forum think a list needs to be competitive. I'm completely content buying and playing with the models/units I like. 

 

You should try, using Battle Scribe, building a few Death Guard lists. You'll notice then that it's very limited, even when not competitive, what the army composition is, simply because the minimum type of unit X costs Y, and if you pick it, it does not go into list A) or , but only list C). We have a lot of restrictions and points are very hard to find. It's honestly quite difficult building "fun" lists, it is not just difficult building ultra competitive lists. Points are at a premium, unless you go with only cultists for troops or some sort of solution like that. But not a lot of people enjoy playing mostly cultists in the troop section...

 

I simply find you much too arrogant in your intercourse with the resident Death Guard players here. The Goonhammer article you mentioned did actually state bluntly that the points hikes were something Death Guard absolutely did not need. So ask yourself why they made the Plague Burst Crawler cheaper, eh ? Because that unit was very fine in the eyes of most players. Now they simply force us to take it, since it is now undercosted, while every infantry unit is absolutely over costed to the degree that it truly hurts list building.

[Plague _Lord]

I'd say ignore Bloody Legionairre as he is probably trolling or just extremely salty. Bragging about having 13 armies and telling others to move on from their fave faction and buy another army is just immature.

And of course there is a problem with balance if the faction can't use it's signature unit without getting stomped, even in fluffy games.

[EnsignJoker]

Just a quick comparison of what Drukhari get in their book to what DG get in theirs should render any talk of “stop complaining and get gud” invalid. It’s ok for those players in their own forum to discuss their frustrations with a book that isn’t getting the help they’re saying it needs. If a forum is too toxic or whatever, don’t read it and don’t engage. People can vent; it prevents violence lol.

Saying plague marines should be reduced in points is a valid stance to take. Saying we’re annoyed they haven’t been to this point since the codex release is equally valid. I don’t see the problem.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I think one issue is that GW will cut and paste things like plague marines across to the chaos codex.

I personally think that in that case the plague marines in the heretic Astartes codex should be more expensive as they bring something different to what is a 'marine dex'

They are the standard in the deathguard so should be comparitively cheaper. Possibly not the same points as an intersessor but similar

[Bulwyf]

One of the issues we have as an army is that other armies in their books since ours get all our cool stuff that is supposed to be OUR unique gimmick...and they get it with zero penalty. We are the slowest army by far in the game. We have a low damaging army. We can't put two WL traits on a character like other armies can. For some reason all the units we can take still don't get our army rules. 

 

But other armies? They get our unique things like -1 damage IN ADDITION to their own cool stuff. And there is, wait for it...absolutely no penalty attached whatsoever to them. I play other armies as I am sure most here do. I know how bad Space Wolves are. Space marines in general are in a bad place and have been for awhile in 9th. But my Drukhari? Nope. If I just wanted to win games I wouldn't play another army besides them. They have no bad units. All of their army rules and synergies work great. The one drawback, fragility, is easily compensated for. It is no wonder they are one of the best armies in the game and have been since their codex was released.

 

We are significantly behind the meta. Even friendly games are hard to win with our restrictions and weaknesses. I hope GW looks at this and not only lowers point costs on termies and PM but also does something to help our damage. You want us to be the slowest army in the game? Fine. We need more tools to deal with that. How about at least -1 AP on all bolt weapons? This should already be in the game for all marine armies loyal and chaos. The army needs help not needless point hikes.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

But other armies? They get our unique things like -1 damage IN ADDITION to their own cool stuff. And there is, wait for it...absolutely no penalty attached whatsoever to them.

 

-1 damage was never unique to Death Guard. Originally it was unique to Wave Serpents, then Genestealer Cult Aberrants got it. Even loyalist Dreadnoughts got it before DG. Aberrants even lost their +5 FNP in 9th ed just like DG did. Even Drukhari lost a 6+ FNP.

 

DG have -1 T aura in addtion to DR (formally an Admech gimmick so them having it on top of their new nonsense isn't because GW hates DG). Blightlords have 4+ invulnerable save and T5 in addition to DR.

 

I didn't get much experience with DG in 9th but did use Imperial Fists Intercessors enough to know that -2 AP ignore cover is a big change for boltguns. Intercessors are practically the same price as plague marines but vastly more usuable because offence is just better than defence.

Edited by Closet Skeleton, 26 February 2022 - 09:47 AM.

[Tokugawa]

Imperial fist is THE weakest loyalist chapter since spring 2021. Intercessor is acceptable troop slots filler but not the unit which carry the game. If some unit is made comparison with IF intercessors, that unit is in trouble.

[Closet Skeleton]

Imperial fist is THE weakest loyalist chapter since spring 2021. Intercessor is acceptable troop slots filler but not the unit which carry the game. If some unit is made comparison with IF intercessors, that unit is in trouble.

My personal tournament experience says you're wrong. I've fought marine vs marine in just about 10 tournament games and not found IF to be underpowered at all. I don't care about statistics that come from people just not trying to make IF work since I was the only IF player in most of the big English events.

 

IF aren't top tier because they don't do anything for Vanguard Veterans which are favoured by most tournament terrain set ups. Maximising speed and momentum is what wins 9th ed games and White Scars have the most rules for that playstyle. No one's running a 18 bolter Inceptor IF list so IF look weak compared to Ultramarines and Raven Guard. IF bolter units are as different to those of other chapters as White Scars melee units are to those of other chapters. If you've not personally used or fought against them in at least 5 games you don't know how good the unit is.

 

Whether or not Intercessors can carry the game is irrelevant to whether or not they're better than Plague Marines but I've never been disadvantaged in a marine vs marine match up by having more intercessors than my opponent.

[Plague _Lord]

The fact is that marines of all flavours are paying premium points for a 3+ save and a 4+, 2 wounds profile. This would be fine if not the proliferation of high volume, high ap shots in most armies. I think when GW tones down antinfantry guns, the game would be in a better place - make most guns ap 0 and tone down strats and HQ abilities that boost this stat. At this moment GEQ nearly never get a save and space marines die in droves when they have to roll a 6+ to survive which is pretty absurd.

 

Fix weapons stats and the cost would be ok. At the moment our toughness is non existant not due to the profile of PMs being bad but because the game is too deadly. Toning down AP would also give us the added benefit of tanks being more resistant to small arms fire, which they should be.

[Marshall Mittens]

Really the game is in a bad place because of tons of high rate of fire, high ap, multi damage weapons.