The hypothetical inclusion of Xenos in the HH game

[TheTrans]

They could add in some of the Xenos mentioned in the books, Mecharachnid and Nephilim etc, but then people will want to use them in 9th edition as well as HH, so it will be basically the same game with 2 different set of rules. Already too much 'lost tech' showing up in 40k, keep the choom for the historical lot. 

Is flowing both ways with 'gravis' weapons appearing in 30k man. 

[Noserenda]

Not being central to the narrative is certainly one argument, but my (and im thinking TheTrans') point is addressing the facetious arguments that the non human forces at large in the galaxy are somehow gone during the heresy, which isnt true, they even pop up in the narrative in several places like Chondax, Angel Exterminatus or the Cabal (there are others obviously) i think there are other reasons GW wouldnt officially support them as i mentioned before but its certainly not the fluff.

[Dagoth Ur]

The point isn't that they weren't somehow existing during the conflict. The point is that apart from the Cabal and that one meeting between Fulgrim and Eldrad, they are literally irelevant to the Horus Heresy. They do not partake in any nominal conflict. They do not influence the fate of the conflict in any way. They are not relevant to the central theme of the period (civil war). Custodes, as an example, fulfill all of these requirements. If anything, they're pretty damn central. It's not a per-capita argument - it's an argument of narrative relevance, and the Talons, though nummerically the smallest, partook in the Horus Heresy far more than Orks, Eldar, or the numerous xenos that were extinguished before the Horus Heresy.

[m0nolith]

The real world reason why we haven’t seen Eldar in the game is because of the aforementioned fact that it’s not pertinent to the central theme of 30k, but surprisingly FW did mention the in lore reasons why we don’t see them specifically.

 

I don’t remember if it was Alan Bligh exactly that said this or one of the other top guys at FW,  but they did state in one of their open days that in this time the Eldar were in a incredibly bad state due to the recent Great Crusade.

 

I would imagine most Xenos species were in the same boat as the Eldar at this time.

The Great Crusade was a monstrous Xenocide on such a scale that it took 10,000 years of imperial stagnation for Xenos numbers to recover (unless they’re Necrons in which case they’re just hiding). 

 

Its interesting to think about the fact that as horrible as M41 is, it’s still preferable to the Eldar and most Xenos species than M31 was.

Edited March 10, 2022 by m0nolith

[OttoVonAwesome]

Xenos are nerds. Only true chads belong in 30k. But yeah the orks were decimated at Ullanor, The Eldar were still reeling from the birth of Slaanesh and the rest didn't exist yet.

[Iron Lord]

The Dark Eldar were already a thing, even if Vect himself wasn't in charge yet (a short story, Wolf At The Door, in the earliest anthology book, Tales of Heresy, has the Space Wolves fighting them - then fighting the humans of the planet when they refuse to join the Imperium). And weren't there aspect warriors in the force Eldrad used against the Emperor's Children in the Fulgrim novel?

 

While the Heresy rules are optimised for Marine-On-Marine, I think I could see people enjoying little battles with xenos set at various points from Great Crusade-era to Scouring-era.

[Dosjetka]

=][= Please note that these posts were split off from this thread in NR&BA. =][=

Edited March 10, 2022 by Dosjetka

[apologist]

Now that this is it's own topic (thanks, Dosjetka!), I wanted to chime in. I think there are two main strands to this, which are:

• Xenos would be a good way to expand the Age of Darkness: Horus Heresy game
• Xenos don't belong in a setting themed around the Imperial civil war.

I don't think the two core premises are necessarily opposed – I certainly agree with both – but they do represent different ways of taking the tabletop game. 

 

+++

 

Space Marine on Space Marine

I do agree that the Age of Darkness: Horus Heresy game specifically is best-suited to a Space Marine on Space Marine theme; even the inclusion of daemons, Imperial Army and Mechanicum is arguably pushing things for me. A tight, clean theme works great here, and allows for a lot of subtle – dare I say realistic? – variation between what is ultimately a mirror match. 

 

The downside of this is that the mechanics of the game tend to fight with the lore. When the mechanics favour armies optimised against other Space Marines, certain weapons, tactics and choices are pushed out. In my experience iconic units (like Tactical Marines) tended to be treated as 'tax' to allow for lots of superheavies or Legion Elites. As a result, the armies on the table simply didn't reflect the stories and artwork. 

 

Is there room for expansion in such a system? Sure. If we're including daemons, Imperial Army, Mechanicum etc., I think the eldar and orks are shoo-ins; and would go a long way to helping broaden the appeal and scope of an insular game. There are plenty of potential gamers who have no interest in Space Marines, and likewise lots of existing players who'd appreciate a bit of variety. I think the inclusion of orks and eldar would also improve overall balance (for what that's worth) and help to make cool-but-crap-against-space-marines weaponry (like rotor cannons or the various 'other gun' Rapiers) and army choices more relevant. Anything that adds to the variety within armies and fights against 'net list' monoculture is a good thing, I'd argue. 

 

+++

 

Space Marines vs... everyone else

Having said all that, the two strands under discussion are, if not opposed, at least not complementary.

 

Hypothetically speaking, then, I think creating a separate Age of Darkness: Great Crusade game to include the non-Space Marines would be awesome. That would leave AoD: HH with a distinct flavour and strong theme, while opening up the setting to the various Imperial armies taking on various xenos groups. It'd also be a nice complementary third game in the setting (alongside Horus Heresy and Adeptus Titanicus). 

 

On a personal note, I think this hypothetical Great Crusade-themed setting would be a great angle for a reinvigoration of Epic scale – allowing for the sweeping grandeur of huge armies, while ensuring there's some visual distinction beyond colour scheme in the armies. However, it'd also work just as well in 28mm; and obviously allow for better crossover.

 

+++

 

And a final note, which only relates rather vaguely to my points above... in terms of lore, the Eldar were fairly heavily involved in the Horus Heresy setting as originally set up in Adeptus Titanicus 1st edition – the quote 'Make no mistake, human. We do not fight for your Emperor. We fight against Horus' stems from this period, for example. While that's been downplayed in order to focus more on the nature of the civil war it would be fairly easy to resurrect.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they're circumstantial at best, they're there, but they're not really important. This isn't a long period of time for them to act beyond small stuff, as they're all flat footed and unable to take advantage.

 

If they expanded to Great Crusade and the Scouring, it might make more sense, but even then, really only Eldar and Orks (as well as certain specific ones like Khrave or Rangda). That said, they have not done so, and thus they're still essentially irrelevant.

 

At the end of the day though, they're barely able to keep up with releases for the factions they support, and anyone that plays Xenos is certainly going to start expecting model releases, which may even be the crux of why some people (not all) are even asking for it.

Edited March 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Marshal Rohr]

If they were going to expand into the Great Crusade and add Xenos, just porting Eldar and Orks would still feel pretty empty. Necrons weren’t awake in any meaningful sense. Tau didn’t exist. Tyranids we’re stopping for gas somewhere in the void. The thing that makes aliens cool in 40K is they offer different archetypes and FW would have to reverse engineer new races and factions to backfill those archetypes.

 

If it were me, and it’s not, they’d build Auxilia rules in such a way that you could do those archetypes yourself. Advanced infantry and big walkers, pyskers and chemmed up close combat infantry, beastmen and hordes.

[DesuVult]

I feel xenos should get rules like militia or daemons. A customizable ruleset meant to represent varied combatants of the era.

[Cris R]

If they were going to expand into the Great Crusade and add Xenos, just porting Eldar and Orks would still feel pretty empty. Necrons weren’t awake in any meaningful sense. Tau didn’t exist. Tyranids we’re stopping for gas somewhere in the void. The thing that makes aliens cool in 40K is they offer different archetypes and FW would have to reverse engineer new races and factions to backfill those archetypes.

 

If it were me, and it’s not, they’d build Auxilia rules in such a way that you could do those archetypes yourself. Advanced infantry and big walkers, pyskers and chemmed up close combat infantry, beastmen and hordes.

 

I can see them exploring the Great Crusade with two major campaigns, one covering the Rangdan Xenocides with a title like "The Precipice of Darkness" and the other for the Ullanor Crusade called something like "The March to Triumph." Call it Warhammer: The Great Crusade and release army lists and new model ranges for the Xenos that matches the aesthetic of the period and you're good to go. But a 30k game that serves as the HH version of Blackstone Fortress could allow the creators to explore new xenos races during the Great Crusade or the Heresy within the narrower confines of this game.

[TheTrans]

If they were going to expand into the Great Crusade and add Xenos, just porting Eldar and Orks would still feel pretty empty. Necrons weren’t awake in any meaningful sense. Tau didn’t exist. Tyranids we’re stopping for gas somewhere in the void. The thing that makes aliens cool in 40K is they offer different archetypes and FW would have to reverse engineer new races and factions to backfill those archetypes.

 

If it were me, and it’s not, they’d build Auxilia rules in such a way that you could do those archetypes yourself. Advanced infantry and big walkers, pyskers and chemmed up close combat infantry, beastmen and hordes.

I feel xenos should get rules like militia or daemons. A customizable ruleset meant to represent varied combatants of the era.

 

Militia and Cults w/ AODC Blackshields is so great, and between it and daemons of the ruin storm you could honestly get close to xenos species, just need to sort of 'refluff' unit and weapons names but it'd be close to doable!

 

So we just got to cross our fingers and see if we get those sandbox lists back.

 

As to people wanting to run xenos during the heresy, to reiterate I honestly don't see an issue with it. The scale of battles we do on the table top are like skirmishes, so even a 'vanquished' foe, in the scheme of solar empires, could rustle up 50-100 guys and a couple of vehicles no worries at all! 

 

[Cris R]

 

If they were going to expand into the Great Crusade and add Xenos, just porting Eldar and Orks would still feel pretty empty. Necrons weren’t awake in any meaningful sense. Tau didn’t exist. Tyranids we’re stopping for gas somewhere in the void. The thing that makes aliens cool in 40K is they offer different archetypes and FW would have to reverse engineer new races and factions to backfill those archetypes.

 

If it were me, and it’s not, they’d build Auxilia rules in such a way that you could do those archetypes yourself. Advanced infantry and big walkers, pyskers and chemmed up close combat infantry, beastmen and hordes.

I feel xenos should get rules like militia or daemons. A customizable ruleset meant to represent varied combatants of the era.

 

Militia and Cults w/ AODC Blackshields is so great, and between it and daemons of the ruin storm you could honestly get close to xenos species, just need to sort of 'refluff' unit and weapons names but it'd be close to doable!

 

So we just got to cross our fingers and see if we get those sandbox lists back.

 

As to people wanting to run xenos during the heresy, to reiterate I honestly don't see an issue with it. The scale of battles we do on the table top are like skirmishes, so even a 'vanquished' foe, in the scheme of solar empires, could rustle up 50-100 guys and a couple of vehicles no worries at all! 

 

 

As others have persistently noted, a lot of folks go into the Heresy because it's a distinct experience from 40k, especially when it comes to the factions that play a pivotal role in shaping the outcome of the civil war. And even among 30k players, there are some individuals who think the game should exclude Daemons because it dilutes the game's emphasis on marine v. marine battles. Personally, I think that's bunk because I play Blood Angels and love the lore around the Signus Campaign, which is pivotal for my Legion. But I raise these points to note that most of the AoD gaming base likely isn't looking for xenos battles when it comes to the gaming experiences they're seeking in AoD. That's why something like a 30k version of Blackstone Fortress is a far better way to explore these ideas since the game creators would have full license to come up with an interesting storyline that can incorporate these races without having to deal with expectations that exist for AoD. And if you want buy in from 30k players - and make some money in the process - make the human characters that come with the game and its expansions into units that you can field as HQs or Elites for the different factions in AoD.

 

Edit: Another idea could be designing a 30k version of Underworlds built around the game engine in Calth that can offer a range of factions, including potentially one or two xenos ones if there was good reason to incorporate them into this setting. If you're genuinely interested in exploring the role of xenos factions during the Heresy, find alternate routes like these that carry less baggage than AoD and open up more room for creativity with rules, minis, and lore that can explore these dark corners of the galaxy during the war.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Cris R

[apologist]

 

As others have persistently noted, a lot of folks go into the Heresy because it's a distinct experience from 40k[...]even among 30k players, there are some individuals who think the game should exclude Daemons because it dilutes the game's emphasis on marine v. marine battles. Personally, I think that's bunk because I play Blood Angels and love the lore around the Signus Campaign, which is pivotal for my Legion. But I raise these points to note that most of the AoD gaming base likely isn't looking for xenos battles when it comes to the gaming experiences they're seeking in AoD. 

 

I don't disagree with your first point – that 'a lot of folks go into the Heresy because it's a distinct experience from 40k' – but it's also worth noting that there are lots of other equally valid reasons that people get into the game setting; including plenty of people who play both 40k and AoD. When looking at this, we should recognise that any data, whether statistical or anecdotal, will be affected by the fact that the vast majority of opinion will come from those served, rather than those excluded. For example:

 

Those that have always been served by AoD:HH: 

• Space Marine players

Those that have come to be served by AoD:HH

• Solar Auxilia players
• Mechanicum players
• Daemons of the Ruinstorm players
• Adeptus Custodes/Talons of the Emperor players

... so most opinion will come from players/collectors of these factions, with more weight from the larger, more established groups, less from the later, less established/popular groups, and very little from potential or not yet released faction players – for obvious reasons.

 

To take 40k as an example, how many people wanted to collect Tau or Necrons before their release? That they don't yet exist isn't necessarily an argument that they shouldn't, or that their inclusion would spoil the game in some way for (say) ork or eldar players. 

 

Let me be clear that all of the above factions fit and have a place in the setting. Further, and leaving aside the contentious issue of Xenos factions, there are groups that would be perfectly fitting that haven't (yet) appeared in a meaningful or developed way in the game. These include more 'normal' Imperial Army units; Lost and the Damned/Chaos cults; Dark Mechanicus; or the various (pan)human groups that have popped up in the Horus Heresy series.

 

The second point – that X faction's inclusion/exclusion is okay because your own preference is covered – is a little unfair, I'd argue. If we're saying Daemons of the Ruinstorm are okay because they give a 'distinct experience from 40k', then there's no reason at all not to allow a similar Eldar, or Khrave, or Orks, or whatever – as long as they're appropriately themed to the 30k setting. After all, the same argument could be stretched to absurd lengths, and say that (for example) Salamanders or Dark Angels, or Night Lords shouldn't be included.

 

***

 

 

 

[M]ost of the AoD gaming base likely isn't looking for xenos battles when it comes to the gaming experiences they're seeking in AoD

 

I'd hazard a guess that there are lots of potential players for xenos factions in 30k, none of which would inherently undermine the distinctiveness of the setting. Indeed, they'd offer opportunities for a different set of enemies for existing players to face. Also, being realistic, given we're talking about an established game – and the perennial attraction of Space Marines – I don't think that xenos (of whatever flavour) would ever come to dominate the game setting to negative effect. I just don't think it's a realistic concern.

 

Given that groups like Aus30k the Tempus Fugitives and King Fluff have all independently produced xenos expansions for the setting, there's at least some impetus for their inclusion. I'd very much agree that xenos-on-xenos 30k gaming would be very niche; but to flip the argument on its head, how many people are looking for Imperial Space Marine on Imperial Space Marine battles in 40k? And yet, that's a very common occurrence. 

 

***

 

Far more convincing an argument for not including xenos in 30k than a potential dilution of the civil war theme of the setting, I'd argue, would be manufacturing and design time opportunities. Ultimately GW's investment, design and manufacturing decides whether the development of xenos detracts from the development of Space Marines (or other existing factions) – or whether it's not a zero-sum game. 

[Mogsam]

I'd be up for some great crusade action against various relevant races who were around.

 

That said, some of the fan books aren't exactly balanced at all, so would need to know in advance.

[Cris R]

 

 

As others have persistently noted, a lot of folks go into the Heresy because it's a distinct experience from 40k[...]even among 30k players, there are some individuals who think the game should exclude Daemons because it dilutes the game's emphasis on marine v. marine battles. Personally, I think that's bunk because I play Blood Angels and love the lore around the Signus Campaign, which is pivotal for my Legion. But I raise these points to note that most of the AoD gaming base likely isn't looking for xenos battles when it comes to the gaming experiences they're seeking in AoD. 

 

I don't disagree with your first point – that 'a lot of folks go into the Heresy because it's a distinct experience from 40k' – but it's also worth noting that there are lots of other equally valid reasons that people get into the game setting; including plenty of people who play both 40k and AoD. When looking at this, we should recognise that any data, whether statistical or anecdotal, will be affected by the fact that the vast majority of opinion will come from those served, rather than those excluded. For example:

 

Those that have always been served by AoD:HH: 

• Space Marine players

Those that have come to be served by AoD:HH

• Solar Auxilia players
• Mechanicum players
• Daemons of the Ruinstorm players
• Adeptus Custodes/Talons of the Emperor players

... so most opinion will come from players/collectors of these factions, with more weight from the larger, more established groups, less from the later, less established/popular groups, and very little from potential or not yet released faction players – for obvious reasons.

 

To take 40k as an example, how many people wanted to collect Tau or Necrons before their release? That they don't yet exist isn't necessarily an argument that they shouldn't, or that their inclusion would spoil the game in some way for (say) ork or eldar players. 

 

Let me be clear that all of the above factions fit and have a place in the setting. Further, and leaving aside the contentious issue of Xenos factions, there are groups that would be perfectly fitting that haven't (yet) appeared in a meaningful or developed way in the game. These include more 'normal' Imperial Army units; Lost and the Damned/Chaos cults; Dark Mechanicus; or the various (pan)human groups that have popped up in the Horus Heresy series.

 

The second point – that X faction's inclusion/exclusion is okay because your own preference is covered – is a little unfair, I'd argue. If we're saying Daemons of the Ruinstorm are okay because they give a 'distinct experience from 40k', then there's no reason at all not to allow a similar Eldar, or Khrave, or Orks, or whatever – as long as they're appropriately themed to the 30k setting. After all, the same argument could be stretched to absurd lengths, and say that (for example) Salamanders or Dark Angels, or Night Lords shouldn't be included.

 

***

 

 

 

[M]ost of the AoD gaming base likely isn't looking for xenos battles when it comes to the gaming experiences they're seeking in AoD

 

I'd hazard a guess that there are lots of potential players for xenos factions in 30k, none of which would inherently undermine the distinctiveness of the setting. Indeed, they'd offer opportunities for a different set of enemies for existing players to face. Also, being realistic, given we're talking about an established game – and the perennial attraction of Space Marines – I don't think that xenos (of whatever flavour) would ever come to dominate the game setting to negative effect. I just don't think it's a realistic concern.

 

Given that groups like Aus30k the Tempus Fugitives and King Fluff have all independently produced xenos expansions for the setting, there's at least some impetus for their inclusion. I'd very much agree that xenos-on-xenos 30k gaming would be very niche; but to flip the argument on its head, how many people are looking for Imperial Space Marine on Imperial Space Marine battles in 40k? And yet, that's a very common occurrence. 

 

***

 

Far more convincing an argument for not including xenos in 30k than a potential dilution of the civil war theme of the setting, I'd argue, would be manufacturing and design time opportunities. Ultimately GW's investment, design and manufacturing decides whether the development of xenos detracts from the development of Space Marines (or other existing factions) – or whether it's not a zero-sum game. 

 

 

All valid points, but launching Warhammer: The Great Crusade and the two main campaigns I suggested above - Rangdan and Ullanor - along others with xenos races would address them without the expectations that exist for AoD. People would come into those experience fresh and ready to explore a new setting and we'd get more opportunities to explore new lore that we've read about. But the the final point on investing time and resources in new lines is going to be one of the biggest barriers to launching this potential product line or creating a range for 30k. A lot is riding on the HH 2.0 launch for the system's future, so I hope the community delivers to give it a boost to do more with the setting.