59 replies to this topic

[Karhedron]

Knights are probably a little ways out but the treatment of the Wraithknight in the Eldar codex gives us some hints on what we might expect to see when it comes out. What follows is nothing as concrete as rumour, just speculations on my part as to what might be coming.

Tougher Knights: I think that The Questoris and Dominus chassis will both get the -1 Damage rule applied since Knights are more fragile than ever in the hyper-lethal 9th edition. Not sure if Armigers will get it or not.

Stomping Nerfed: I big surprise in the Eldar codex was to see how much the Titanic Feet had been toned down. I fully expect this to be rolled out to Imperial and Chaos Knights meaning that if you want to hit properly in melee, you will need a dedicated weapon instead of just kicking stuff. I expect the Reaper Chainsword will get a sweep attack mode for dealing with hordes, not sure about the Gauntlet.

Better melta: I think we can expect the assorted melta weapons to get buffed. Some of the big ones like the Thermal Cannon might even get +2/+4 Damage at long/short range to emphasise just how heavily they vapourise stuff.

Better plasma: I think that the Plasma Decimator on the Castellan will be buffed S8/9 and D2/3 in normal and overcharged modes respectively. This weapon is currently almost always fielded as the Relic version and after the buff to the Suncannon, I am confident Cawl would never be willing to be outdone by a bunch of pixies.

Any other speculations? Ideally stuff informed by what we have seen so far rather than just guessing or wishlisting.

[N1SB]

This mental exercise is like a good pre-emptive Metawatch, because while we're open to new information like whatever the actual Codex will bring, we have to account for what's already out there in the meta if we are to include Knights in our armies.  Even though what's in the coming Imperial Knights Codex is technically speculation, the new Tau and Eldar "Knights" are real now, not simply a sign of what's to come but what Imperial Knights will have to deal with in the future...so these are real topics we gotta deal with.

 

I expect the Reaper Chainsword will get a sweep attack mode for dealing with hordes, not sure about the Gauntlet.

 

You make an excellent point because Armigers got this now, which makes them more favourable to me (I play Chaos Knights myself, but same STC).

 

My good Warhammer friend Tourney Tony in Toronto literally made this argument in favour of the melee Warglaive Armigers over its bigger cousin the Knight Errant.  What's noteworthy was he didn't even have to verbally say a single word, it was all done through gestures:

• Tourney Tony in Toronto made a downwards chopping motion with his hand...
• ...then a sideways chopping motion with the same hand...
• ...then shrugged, that hand turned palm upwards, like an offering to Machine God

At which point I said, "You make an excellent case."

 

What he was saying was, "Look, melee Armigers, you can have BOTH Striking attacks (downwards chop) for elite units AND Sweeping attacks (sideways chop) for horde units.  Why wouldn't you go for that versatility in a take-all-comers army (shrug)?"

 

So I think what you said is probably true, it looks like something they meant to fix earlier, like something in a FAQ or that Balance Datasheet (like how they made Lemanu Russes 2+ or whatever).  It's not so much a buff to the big Knights as it is to bring them in-line with other comparable units.

[Karhedron]

I think that big Knights currently don't need a sweep attack mode as their feet fill that role.

If (as I speculate) feet attacks get brought in line with the Wraithknight, there will be a real need for a sweep attack profile. It will also be a nerf to the Crusader and Dominus since they lack dedicated melee weapons.

Although I would not be surprised if the Thundercoil harpoon gains a melee profile.

[BloodyB]

I hope knights get tougher, my Magaera is getting dusty.

I hope we see T9 for Knights as well as -1 damage, a krak missile shouldn't be an enormous threat to them, and Lascannons should be seen as the minimum to reliably hurt them.

I also hope that the plasma is brought up to the heavy plasma standard, s8/9 d2/3 for the Castellan. I love the model, but the idea of a gun that size being worse than a dreadnought plasma is silly.

I most want to see some sort of method for improving the Questor Imperialis knightly houses. Maybe make it so that one knight won't stop any Imperial faction from gaining it's doctrine bonuses at the cost of a CP or 2? Right now, I only see AdMech really use them, and it's been too long since I fielded my knights and BA together.

Lastly, please Geedubs-games-designer-who-definitely-reads-all-of-my-posts, I would love to see the Knight Paladin do something useful. Make it Damage 2, or give it a fire twice strat, just please make it useful, I have 3 and I need to be vindicated at some point, please!

[ValourousHeart]

Looks like we'll be getting some updates for Imperial Knights (maybe Chaos Knights too) at Adepticon on Wednesday or Thursday.

 

https://www.warhamme...al-of-becoming/

 

https://www.warhamme...-when-to-watch/

 

[Karhedron]

And there I was thinking we had a long time to wait.

[chapter master 454]

I see stomp getting toned down but in exchange we get sweep attacks which are the middle ground attack between stomps and full power swings.

 

Big looks: Make the guns actually good. The Avenger Gatling is our best gun currently and that isn't saying much now, with all the -1D running around, it isn't cutting mustard and all these old tech D6 shot weapons need boosted. Thermal Cannon especially needs boosted and if there ever was a gun I want to see 6+D6 damage on when at half range, this would fit the bill!

 

T9 I feel is a bit of a stretch, not sure but I would be pleasantly surprised if we got base-line T9 for anything outside of Warlord traits and relics. We can however easily say that all household traits will get massive buffs, not to mention I wouldn't be surprised to see Questor Allegiances being boosted too...you know, the unique bonus Sub-Faction Knights get access to.

I am curious however about Quests that are rumoured. I mean, I could see one easily being a "not one step back job" when the unit can never fall back and must never move closer to your own table edge, not sure of the pay off but you know. However I would love to see a "Honoured bound target" where they have to nail a specific unit to get the boost but if anyone else interferes in their quest it is failed (basically, only the questing knight gets to attack that unit. No-one else can help).

[Karhedron]

The following has just cropped up on Discord purporting to be a leak of the new Castellan stats. As always, take with a big pinch of salt until we get further confirmation. I am pleasantly surprised to see that my guesswork was fairly close to the money. The Plasma Decimator has one less point of strength than I guessed but one more point of damage so it seems fair. Feet have been toned down and the -1 Damage rule is present and correct.

32 Wounds is a pretty tasty statline and retainig BS2+, even when degraded is pretty huge considering the firepower this thing carries.

[Karhedron]

The Valiant has just been leaked too and there are some tasty changes. No melee profile on the Thundercoil but I guess it doesn;t really need it when it gets 4D6 auto-hits from the conflagration cannon! There is also an ominous reference to a Dominus Malfunction roll so degrading stats may not be the only thing these big boys suffer as they take damage.  38 power is huge though, these things will likely be weighing in close to 800 points!

 

[Karhedron]

Another biggie is that they seem to have lost the ability to withdraw from melee and either shoot or charge. Tagging one of these in melee seems incredibly dangerous, even getting through the Overwatch would be a miracle, but if you manage, it can be tied down just like any other unit which is significant.

Edited by Karhedron, 22 March 2022 - 10:27 AM.

[sairence]

Another biggie is that they seem to have lost the ability to withdraw from melee and either shoot or charge. Tagging one of these in melee seems incredibly dangerous, even getting through the Overwatch would be a miracle, but if you manage, it can be tied down just like any other unit which is significant.

That's probably still part of the first 3 abilities mentioned there. As long as all Knights have it no need to put it on all datasheets.

If the Dominus Knights are that expensive, I wonder if Knights in general will have more of a shift to bringing less big ones but have them supported by lots of small Armigers.

[Danosborne]

I can’t imagine that they are going to make questoris too expensive to still be able to take 3 in a 2k list. That would change the flavour of the army massively.

[Danosborne]

I can’t imagine that they are going to make questoris too expensive to still be able to take 3 in a 2k list. That would change the flavour of the army massively.

[librisrouge]

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. Here I go killing again. If those rules are accurate, and they're great fakes if they are, I might have to start using my knights again.

 

Heck, I might need to paint more knights.

[ValourousHeart]

Another biggie is that they seem to have lost the ability to withdraw from melee and either shoot or charge. Tagging one of these in melee seems incredibly dangerous, even getting through the Overwatch would be a miracle, but if you manage, it can be tied down just like any other unit which is significant.

 

That is already part of the core rule.  Falling back Titanic units can still shoot, BRB page 207.  The FAQ / balance update (I forget which) took away our ability to fall back and charge some time ago.

[ValourousHeart]

Not much longer.  Likely showing up after Nids, who should be dropping in the next month.

 

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think the 2+ save is a real win here.

Small arms fire should not beable to hurt a Knight at all. Hard to balance it that way, but with a 2+ we are getting closer to small arms beeing useless against them.

[sairence]

I think the 2+ save is a real win here.
Small arms fire should not beable to hurt a Knight at all. Hard to balance it that way, but with a 2+ we are getting closer to small arms beeing useless against them.

It makes a noticable difference for sure. My Leman Russes suddenly felt alot more durable when the balance sheet boosted them.

[Ichar]

If any unit in the game should have permanent trans-human, it should be the Imperial and Chaos Knights. I feel like it is kind of getting overused at this point. However, a huge heavily armored warmachine should be at least as durable as a Deathwing Knight.

[Danosborne]

[quote name="ValourousHeart" post="5806606" timestamp="1647980729"][quote name="Karhedron" post="5806430" timestamp="1647944817"

Another biggie is that they seem to have lost the ability to withdraw from melee and either shoot or charge. Tagging one of these in melee seems incredibly dangerous, even getting through the Overwatch would be a miracle, but if you manage, it can be tied down just like any other unit which is significant.[/quote]
That is already part of the core rule. Falling back Titanic units can still shoot, BRB page 207. The FAQ / balance update (I forget which) took away our ability to fall back and charge some time ago.[/quote]

Knights can still declare a charge after making a fall back move.

Edited by Danosborne, 28 March 2022 - 05:13 PM.

[ValourousHeart]

Knights can still declare a charge after making a fall back move.

 

Ok, I misremembered what the FAQ removed... but now reading the BRB page 207, the FAQ, and the original text in the codex, we didn't actually lose anything.  They just took out the redundant text from the codex about shooting after falling back because that part was already in the core rules.

[spessmarine]

the good ol' source has been posting a bit

https://www.reddit.c...r3004/comments/

 

- datasheets fake

- preceptor has a "chaplain" role

- heroicness mechanic

[Karhedron]

Shame about the datasheets being fake but perhaps they were just a little too good.

[chapter master 454]

So I was right to begin with, it didn't feel right.

 

However if the preceptor is updated, Chaplain role I would assume is more just that they have "Imperatives" they can issue to Armigers that work on 3+ in the command phase (like we have seen with many other codices and this "priest" role). Likely reflective of the lore that armigers get paired with knights but the preceptor is actually a mentor to new armiger pilots, teaching them and ensuring they can handle being in a way mentally linked to their Lord. 

 

The whole hero thing sounds however like Space Wolf Sagas but expanded.

 

If this person is the real McCoy then we may be on to something. Time will tell.

[UtariOnzo]

The one thing I’m hoping for is Armigers getting obsec, or at the least there being more opportunities for giving knights/armigers obsec. It really is our Achillies heel.

That said, I suspect we won’t be seeing it, but the priestly role on the preceptor makes a lot of sense. I’d also expect a slight beefing up of toughness in the face of this edition’s increased lethality.