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2k Sisters Competitive Advice


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8 replies to this topic

#1
superwill

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Hey all,

 

I'm a semi-regular tourney player but it's been a couple of editions since I've rocked the sisters. Been doing a bit of reading but would love some input / feedback on the list from anyone with more recent experience.

 

Thinking of running it as Ardent Shroud, with a decent amount of multi-meltas that can advance and shoot normally.

 

Can talk more through it but hopefully it's fairly self explanatory

 

+ HQ +

Celestine and Geminae Superia [200pts]
. . 2x Geminae Superia

Morvenn Vahl [14 PL, 280pts]: Warlord

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 85pts]: Incensor Cherub
. . 2x Battle Sister: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Sister Superior
. . . . Chainsword & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 85pts]: Incensor Cherub
. . 2x Battle Sister: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Sister Superior
. . . . Chainsword & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 85pts]: Incensor Cherub
. . 2x Battle Sister: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Sister Superior
. . . . Chainsword & Boltgun

Sisters Novitiate Squad [4 PL, 75pts]
. . Novitiate Superior
. . . . Bolt Pistol and Boltgun
. . 9x Sister Novitiate (Autogun): 9x Auto Pistol, 9x Autogun, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

+ Elites +

Hospitaller [3 PL, -1CP, 50pts]: Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Stratagem: Saint in the Making, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief (Aura)

 (so essentially she is a 9" bubble of +1 invuln and 6+ FNP)

 

Arco-Flagellants [2 PL, 39pts]
. . 3x Arco Flagellant: 3x Arco-flails

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [5 PL, 95pts]: Incensor Cherub
. . Dominion Superior
. . . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. . Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. . Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. . Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. . Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter

Seraphim Squad [8 PL, 160pts]
. . 7x Seraphim: 14x Bolt pistol, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
. . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers
. . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers

Zephyrim Squad [8 PL, 175pts]
. . 9x Zephyrim: 9x Bolt pistol, 9x Frag & Krak grenades, 9x Power sword
. . Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol, Zephyrim Pennant

+ Heavy Support +

Castigator [8 PL, 150pts]: Castigator autocannons

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 140pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub
. . Retributor Superior
. . . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Ministorum Heavy Flamer
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Retributor Squad [9 PL, 220pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub
. . 4x Retributor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Retributor Superior
. . . . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. . Retributor w/ Simulacrum

+ Dedicated Transport +

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

Clocks in at 1999. Thanks!


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#2
Emperor Ming

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There would have to be an extremely good reason to take incensor cherubs and simulacrum on basic sistersmellow.png

 

Otherwise that's points savedyes.gif

 

Moving on to noviates, they are overcosted, they might have a place in blood rose, otherwise more basic sisters to hold objectivessmile.png

 

Reason for the 3 arcos?huh.png

 

You will never convince me on the castigatortongue.png There's quite a lot of damage reduction about and then with armour of contempt, I would never touch heavy bolters with a barge pole

atmno.gif

 

Do you plan to take RND secondary? if so what's your rough ideas around that and the list?



#3
superwill

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Thanks man, really appreciate the reply!!

I guess the idea behind the cherubs & sims on the basic sisters was that, with Argent Shroud, I can advance and shoot those multi-meltas without penalty. I figured that to take advantage of AS I need to do more than just the 2 squads of rets and really take advantage of that speed and threat across more of my squads. For 10 points I can use an act of faith on every squad to make those multi-meltas punch hard on T1. I thought maybe that would be worth the 10 points to ensure that they get a crucial advance roll or damage or something? Maybe worth more than just an extra bolter body? But like I said, I haven't played them before so I don't really know how useful those miracle dice are for just a random MM.

 

Yeah the Novitiates I've just seen in a couple of competitive lists (like John Lennon's) and thought maybe they would make good objective holders or just draw some attention away from the BS if I send them forwards? Again, I have no experience with them haha.

 

The 3 arcos was just that I had 40 points leftover after everything else and thought they can just be an action monkey unit or just something to move forwards with the rest of the army and catch a few bullets on their way. I could try and find some points to upgrade them into something else. It sounds like they're not a bad unit anyway, although yeah obviously better in Bloody Rose (like most things I think).

 

Haha, yeah the Castigator doesn't seem amazing but it definitely provides a different sort of firepower to the rest of my list - I've already got as much melta as I could pack in, and I've got plenty of D1 stuff with the bolters, 10 seraph, 10 zephyr etc. I heard Lennon talking about using it to just pick angles out with a sponson etc. to avoid some of the really nasty return fire. IDK, I'm not expecting huge results from it but 150 points isn't crazy expensive and it just provides some longer range and D2 firepower which my army doesn't have a lot of otherwise. But yeah I guess that marines would be on a 2+ in cover against all its guns, which is a bit of a concern since the D2 is mainly good against marines...

 

I'm very used to playing with Investigate Signal as I've come across from marines, but yeah I would probably suspect that RND would be easier than trying to bully people off the mid-table. I do have a lot of smaller units so could try and get my troops / arcos / doms / seraphim / zephyrim to do it? Probably relies on me doing some damage early to the opponent so that he doesn't just clear my sisters off the board, but if that happens I don't feel like there's any secondary that's really going to help? The flying girls are pretty fast and should be able to grab some data in the last couple of turns if need be, and with a 4++ near the hospitaller at the start they are also fairly tanky for their points cost? IDK, maybe it would be better to have more basic battle sister squads just for that job, but when I made a list with a bunch of basic bolter girls it just didn't feel like I had enough damage to actually get anything done.

 

My main love for sisters is for Celestine and the other flying girls. I would probably run 30 seraphim and 30 zephyrim if that was viable haha. Maybe that would suit itself better to Bloody Rose, but I just really don't like the Repentia that much and I feel like Bloody Rose are all about Repentia. Then again, the competitive side of me is willing to compromise on that. If I get to run the units I love then I don't mind too much what fills out the rest of the army.

 

Any army that includes the flying girls (and preferably has quite a bit of melta in it) I would be very interested in hearing about! If you can think of another direction I would be super appreciative of any suggestions! :)


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#4
Blurf

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So, in keeping with what you're going for in the list I can say drop the zephyrim, novitiates, arcos, and Incensor cherubs. Also drop the simulacrum on the basic battle sister squads.

 

In exchange, pick up another unit of stormbolter dominions and upgrade the small retributor squad to all multimeltas. Also grab a Dogmata. Dogmata are AMAZING and are better in Argent Shroud than any other order because they allow you to shoot and do actions.

 

After that you have a couple of options. You can add more battle sister squads with heavy weapons to increase you threat spread and go harder into the shooting option.

 

OR, if you want to be able to steal objectives with a melee threat like harpster does, 2 units of repentia (between 5-8 per squad) and a repentia superior. Turn them into  little cruise missiles.

 

Now, you said you like fly girls? Here's a list I'm running at a tournament at the end of the month. I call 'The Winged Deathball):

 

Order of Our Martyrd Lady

 

Celestine

Junith

Morvenn

Palantine (Mortal wound bomb) Blinding Radiance

3x5 Battle sisters

Imagifier with Indomitable Belief+Book

Dogmata (Chorus)

5 Sacresants

Imagifier with Candela Scroll and +1S

10 Rets with 4MM and a simulacrum

5 Rets with 4MM

 

And the Main Course:

 

10 Zephyrim with Banner

10 Zephyrim with Banner

10 Zephyrim

 

The basic idea is to build a crazy deathball that has Blinding Radiance, Junith Cover, Indomitable Belief, 6+FNP, and Hospitaler Rez for defense and +1S, +1 Attack, Reroll hits, reroll wounds, +1 to wound, +1 Attack from Candela Scroll for offense.

 

Is it 'invincible'? Absolutely not. A good turn of stormbolter shooting can eat an entire squad of Zephyrim if you roll poorly enough. The thing is, with everyone tooling up to go against nids, not that many armies have the right combination of # of shots +high AP to kill them.

 

Your one major weakness is mortal wounds so you'll ABSOLUTELY need to Chorus to go off on a screening unit when going up against Nids. Either that, or you need to ice the Maleceptor before it can cast.

 

It's a meme list, bloody rose with less investment into the wombo combo is FAR more efficient, but darn it if it isn't fun.



#5
Lemondish

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A competitive list benefits quite a lot from including a Castigator. The mistake many here seem to make is thinking it is there to kill Marines. It isn't.

You have more than enough access to other tools to kill marines. Competitively, Marines are not the problem you're solving with a Castigator. Look at what Jack did with it in Dallas.

A competitive list needs to be able to take all comers, so it needs answers to screens, pressuring objective campers, clearing chaff to make room for your melee push etc. It brings something unique that gives me tactical options. Without it, you're either shoehorning another unit to do the same job, or letting that job go undone.

#6
Blurf

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A competitive list benefits quite a lot from including a Castigator. The mistake many here seem to make is thinking it is there to kill Marines. It isn't.

You have more than enough access to other tools to kill marines. Competitively, Marines are not the problem you're solving with a Castigator. Look at what Jack did with it in Dallas.

A competitive list needs to be able to take all comers, so it needs answers to screens, pressuring objective campers, clearing chaff to make room for your melee push etc. It brings something unique that gives me tactical options. Without it, you're either shoehorning another unit to do the same job, or letting that job go undone.

The specific problem with the Castigator in THIS list is that it doesn't fill the same niche in argent shroud as it does in other convictions. The increased shooting and mobility provided by Argent shroud means that you no longer lack the ability to clear out objective campers, move blockers, spore mines, etc that other Sisters lists struggle with.

 

The problem Argent Shroud deals with is that they have a hard time clearing and taking objectives in the same turn because their melee tends to be so lackluster. It also really, REALLY values it's fast attack slots so Zephyrim tend to be a hard sell. Dropping the Castigator and the Zephyrim for mortifiers, repentia, or another unit of Seraphim/Dominions is likely the right call here.



#7
Emperor Ming

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Marines haven't wanted predators for quite some time, why should we want their cast offslaugh.png



#8
Lemondish

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Marines haven't wanted predators for quite some time, why should we want their cast offslaugh.png


Because it is a good unit that brings value and utility that most Sisters units cannot. Blurf is right, though - it isn't as valuable to an Argent Shroud army who can cover for that weakness by virtue of being really fething mobile.

That is a far cry from it being a "Predator cast off", though. There's a reason many of the most successful sisters lists today use it. It simply performs.

#9
Blurf

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Marines haven't wanted predators for quite some time, why should we want their cast offslaugh.png


Because it is a good unit that brings value and utility that most Sisters units cannot. Blurf is right, though - it isn't as valuable to an Argent Shroud army who can cover for that weakness by virtue of being really fething mobile.

That is a far cry from it being a "Predator cast off", though. There's a reason many of the most successful sisters lists today use it. It simply performs.

 

I want to be very careful here, just in case there are GW people lurking around doing research for points changes.

 

The Castigator DOES bring value and utility that Sisters lack. It DOES fill a role in the army that none of our other units can do. That doesn't exactly make it a 'good unit' though. It makes it a 'Necessary' unit. Battle Sisters, for example, have historically always been necessary, but it's been fairly few and far between that they've been 'good'.

 

The thing about the Castigator is that nothing else in the army is capable of reliably putting a solid number of shots down range and even the things that DO can't shoot 48". Its only competition in this regard is the 3d6 missile Exorcist, which is worse in just about every measurable way.

 

Against particularly Xenos armies, we desperately need something, ANYTHING that puts a large number of shots in the 30-50" band that is fast enough to be able to swap firing lanes on the fly. The Castigator does that better than anything else in the army. That doesn't mean it does it well. It's not efficient for its points, it's just the only thing that does what it does. In situations where the fight has become a knockdown brawl and you just need raw firepower, it falls down pretty quickly.

 

Compare a Castigator to a Harlequin Voidweaver. Despite being 11W T7 vs 6W T5,  the Voidweaver's 4+ invul, native -1 to hit, preventing rerolls to hit, and Light Saedath, makes it more durable (Even with AoC and with Miracle dice mitigating the advantage of luck of the laughing god), it doesn't degrade as it takes damage, it's faster, and has only slightly worse damage against targets the Castigator wants to shoot at, while being significantly better into other targets (low T single wound or High T multi-wound). It does all that at 20pts CHEAPER than the Castigator. It can also squadron, which is massively valuable.

 

If you take the Battle Cannon, which is a much closer analogue to the prismatic cannon, you're adding 5pts to the chassis and still ending up doing the same or less damage in both profiles while they can use Luck of the Laughing God on their damage rolls, but you can't use Miracle dice on yours. The extra heavy bolter vs the Voidweavers 2 shuriken cannons isn't going to make up the differential, especially when your D6 shots run cold against their much more reliable 2d3 damage.

 

If the Voidweaver and the Castigator switched points values (and if the Battle Cannon was free but the Prismatic Cannon cost 5pts) I would say the Castigator would finally have graduated to a 'good' unit. It's almost there. It's not quite there yet though.

 

(You can see this in action in some of the recent tournament streams where Castigators get put in a position where the player just need raw damage and the Castigator fails almost every time. Especially against the various flavors of marines.)


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