millest Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 well ive just order one of each of the servents (inquisitional retinue) models and for $7 a pop their pretty sweet and a bit different to GWs stuff. i think the stuff he does is cool but the actual sculpted stuff like the servents has more character to it as its not so "acurate". nice work all the same though. almost tempted by some of his previous inquisitor sculpts! millest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrub Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Call me crazy.. but I can't see the justification in a model, which would normally cost roughly $3.50 per marine, costing $150+ on account of some extra casted bits. If that man buys just one box and uses virtually the same cast for every Marine and markets them for atleast $150 he's making an intake of atleast $1,465. That's just one line/just one set of casts. Granted, the cost of the software and machinery, but if he has access to them through some other means[which is what I am guessing is the deal], it's wrong to charge them for exorbitant prices. It's not envy, it's just plain highway robbery. Just my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essayons Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 scrub Posted Yesterday, 11:53 PM Call me crazy.. but I can't see the justification in a model, which would normally cost roughly $3.50 per marine, costing $150+ on account of some extra casted bits. If that man buys just one box and uses virtually the same cast for every Marine and markets them for atleast $150 he's making an intake of atleast $1,465. That's just one line/just one set of casts. Granted, the cost of the software and machinery, but if he has access to them through some other means[which is what I am guessing is the deal], it's wrong to charge them for exorbitant prices. It's not envy, it's just plain highway robbery. Just my $0.02. Well, people pay $40,000.00+ for a bare-bones Lexus and that's just a Toyota with a few extra emblems on it... If you were to glue toenail clippings to a Space Marine model and sell it for a million dollars it wouldn't be highway robbery, it would be good salesmanship (as long as the purchaser made the decision free from duress). Since people are willing to pay $150.00 for his stuff, good for him. If I had access to that technology, you'd be damned tootin that I'd be doing the same, and so would quite a few of his naysayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volkainen Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Well, hearing that he did not sculpt that stuff by hand is heartening, because it still leaves me something to aspire to... I would use the equipment if I had it, and as far as the prices, I wouldn't buy it because I can't afford it. But hey, if you've got the money/inclination, knock yourself out! The work is still d*mn nice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixupi Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 How can we even call this 'work?' Because I know we aren't referring to his computer generated file when we say 'work.' Because he doesn't sculpt anything(Okay, but what little he does...looks horrible.), he just presses into moulds. It's kind of annoying and while I have great respect for modellers and the rest of the computer related art field (wife is an illustrator, best friend is a CA and I went to school for computer science myself) it really just isn't THAT hard to pump out the shapes of the space marines. It doesn't help all his templates are darn near the same as well. On the other side of things, he is making money for it and well, hell if he can then good for him. I applaud his ability to sell them for what he does and I think it's genius, but do I think he is a good sculpter or artist for that matter? Hah. It was cool when you first saw it, then you find out there is a thousand of them and they all look the same. Talk about ruining the moment. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicorex Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I cant belive we are still talking about this. Okay Some of you like him. :P Some of you dislike him. :( Most of us just find him repetative and boring. :huh: Discusion solved! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artimis Vergadin Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Scibor....tsk tsk. You want to see a real sculptor? clicky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezul Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I cant belive we are still talking about this. yeah me neither, id have thought this thread would have been closed by now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gafgarion Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 he just presses into moulds. On those grounds you can say Andy Warhol just printed the same thing onto paper a few times, anyone could do the same. Theres nothing wrong about using a 3D program to do this. I wish there was a program that I could use that translated ideas I drew up in MSpaint onto my models, if I did that wouldn't be cheating since it's still my work. Perhaps he's just more interested in the marketable aspect of selling these miniatures than doing it for arts sake. There's nothing wrong with that either. I mean, there are hundreds of ways in which you can 'cheat' to make your models look better. You can use plasticard instead of sculpting parts of out greenstuff and you can carve lines into plane GW bases to make a tiled floor. (which was an excellent idea btw) In the end, no one is forcing you to buy his models. I've got no problem with the prices he charges because I don't intend to buy them either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 No, and something people got wrong too, is that the company, chest of colors, aint Scibors.. he just "works" for them sometimes. In fact its someone called Mahon who "owns" the company, and handles the selling.. But Scibor doesnt lend out his molds to anyone, since he wants his works to be "unique", I cant really think of him as working there, since I believe that in a company, each and everyone should have at least some access to eachothers work. I planned on letting thier company convert a model for me, but just getting 2 shoulderpads and a shield done, would cost me about $75 (US dollars).. which IMO is a bit over the top.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SigmundMan Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Yep lots of artists do this sort of thing and all the other artists call them cheats but really they are just markerters first, artists second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Don't blame Scibor for what he does, it's childish and reeks of jealousy.. The man does what he does and is quite good at it. He's never said it was all hand sculpted, people just assumed it. Now that they've found out his secrets, they call him a cheat?? :cuss? It's like the DJ's that take a good old song, put standard bass base #4 from their synthersizer under it and make big cash from it because poeple buy it. Heck, if I could, I'd do it in a second! Don'd blame the guys that make good money with a simple idea, if you want to blame anyone, blame the people who buy it. Better yet, blame yourself for not comming up with it youself.. John T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_m4d_skillz Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Seriusly, if I hear one more whining about scibors sculpts, I might have to go phsyco and kill a puppy! :P It's not how u achive the end result that counts, it's how the end result looks... it's like saying that "drybrushing is wrong, because u can get great looking chainmail in a simple way" and then go about whining about it like a :P bitch... Scibors sculpts is sexy, period... the only thing that u might wanna complain about is the low standard on some of the actually hand sculpted areas like the fur on the space wolf, but I heard that he's trying to develop his skills in that area too.. ;) If u dont like using CAD machine to plot moulds, u dont have to buy his stuff, but on the otherside if it's super easy, and requires no talent whatsoever, why dont u whiners go make a bunch of miniatures urself? I'm sick and tired of all the people trashtalking great artist just because they have inovative ways of doing what they do, it's people like scibors who's developing miniature painting.. keep it real, and close the tread or something! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 One thing I find quite frustrating about this is that many people see this and immediately think scibor has massive talent when it comes to fiddling about with GS. Obviously he has some skill when it comes to designing his moulds, but in all fairness the shapes are fairly regular and the patterns tend to be repetitive. Arguably, having the ability to draw something on a computer gives someone the 'right' to make moulds like these and they are just as talented as someone who sculpts by hand and are subject to no muddying of their name. Well, if I draw a square in paint, then type a word in there, it's art, right? And if I print it out, it's worth as much (if not more, but I'll come to that in a bit) as someone who painstakingly drew out that square and neatly emulated the text with a brush and ink? I don't think that's necessarily true. Some argue that if it irritates you that scibor does this, then why not just go and do it yourself? The argument then usually reaches a conclusion that masses of talent are required. Well, fiddled around with something like this in school, though on a larger scale. I was about 13 at the time and I can't say it was particularly difficult. I've not touched a CAD program since. Not because I couldn't use the program, but because it never really intrested me that much. It wasn't a huge challenge, and coming up with nice geometric patterns was pretty easy. The milling machine at school was a monster and nowhere near the quality that is available now. But the process of making a flat negative wouldn't be too much of a challenge, it's just a matter of finding a CAD program and getting to know how to use it. I managed it as a 14 year old, so it can't have been that hard. Replicating a historical pattern or a word would be reasonably easy, since all you're doing is copying it. You might even be able to get a computer to etch your design just by scanning an original. And price. Well, I think it's quite disappointing that some people will pay $150+ for a $5 model plus a few cast parts. People would never buy a 28mm miniature with parts cast by GW for that much. Some people moan about paying the $5 in the first place, never mind paying $145 for something that is just as mass produced. Some production greens attract a lower price than this. Miniatures that are 100% scratch scuplted by professionals, people who make their livings sculpting miniatures, can go (including production rights) for less than this. I think that's shocking. As far as I can tell, people have a very dim view of how long a scratch sculpt takes, and would happily pay much more for this kind of thing than a miniature lovingly crafted by someone who is highly skilled. In a way, I think it's worrying. As for Scibor's ability to sculpt. I think he's a so-so sculptor. His scratch stuff is really quite large and accordingly a bit more forgiving, detail wise. I don't think I'd go out of my way to get hold of one of his sculpts, though; there are many more talented people about who regularly get little to no recognition, despite their skills. Someone mentioned Scibor keeping his moulds to himself. Recently, demi morgana on CMoN has been submitting miniatures using his moulds. It's more of a matter of geographical convenience than any kind of peevishness: I think mahon lives quite a way from scibor and so they don't (or rather, can't) share resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyCrusader Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I think all that whinning and criticising Scibor is his own fault... He almost never answer to direct question to him. He openly admitted that he does not to like a teach people or help a player community. He look like very sellfish person. I get a knowledge how Scibor "sculpt" not from him but from Cyril (respect). And I was disapointed and feel belied. Thats all... When I was on last Chest of color meeting in Poznan I have opportunity to watch in live one of Scibor conversions. And I really liked... :blush: It looks much better than on photos. :) I hope that Scibor change his attitiude and stop treat us only as potential customers and start to trat as fellow hobbist. Thats all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielTheGreat Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I think that most of the discontent leveled aginst him is based on the fact that none of his figures are painted. As odd as that may seem, I think that people look at the green and expect it too be all hand-sculpted, not pressed. Once they find out that he is using a rapid-prototyper (or something of the sort) they feel cheated because it suddenly becomes incredibly easy to replicate. I am in college using Pro Engineer and CAD, and I could be cranking out the actuall part files without any difficulty. The one thing I don't have: Access to the Rapid Prototyper. Anyway, I used to be dissapointed with him. He had been putting out sub-standard miniatures and was able to sell them for large amounts of money. You can see this in some of his older models, especially ones with his hand-done gloves. They do not show the same amount of detail that the rest of the model shows. Thus they end up looking wonky and a bit out of place. Lately he has either become better at sculpting, or has gone back to using the GW hands. Overall I would the say that the quality of the work has gone up. One thing that I am not going to knock is his creativity. If I was in that much power-armor I wouldn't mind those jet-powered A/C fans... :) For all of you who say that he does not sculpt at all: I want some proof on that one... If you look at his fantasy stuff there are quite a few blends that I doubt he bothered to model in a CAD program. And somehow I doubt that he is modeling heads in said program as well. Marines are supposed to be very precise, and what he is doing is just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 And somehow I doubt that he is modeling heads in said program as well. That's right, he usually just casts GW ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahon Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 No, and something people got wrong too, is that the company, chest of colors, aint Scibors.. he just "works" for them sometimes. In fact its someone called Mahon who "owns" the company, and handles the selling.. But Scibor doesnt lend out his molds to anyone, since he wants his works to be "unique", I cant really think of him as working there, since I believe that in a company, each and everyone should have at least some access to eachothers work. I planned on letting thier company convert a model for me, but just getting 2 shoulderpads and a shield done, would cost me about $75 (US dollars).. which IMO is a bit over the top.. Hi there :) Just to clarify things a bit: We're not a company as such - we're a bunch of freelancers. As far as I know at least some of them have their own companies. In fact I am the person who runs Chest of Colors - the website which became the home of the group. Just because I am running the website - and it's currently my hobby (I used to paint miniatures for commissions, but now I moved to running the site and photography. I paint some minis on ocassions but it's far rarer than it used to be) and a very rewarding experience, something I always wanted to do - it's easiest for me to coordinate the team's works. But still - the artists are really freelancers with pretty much freedom. Scibor is one of the persons whose minis always raise interest and controversies, so his miniatures always generate a bit of interest - which is a good thing for the site I run. So the opportunity of seeing his works in person, and the pleasure of dealing with people (something which remained from the days when I myself was doing commissions) made me agree to cooperation with him. And now regarding the prices: Yes, huis prices are steep. Or so I think. But as long as people are willing to buy his stuff, I don't expect that he'd lower his prices. Well, unless competition forces him to do it. In many cases his special thing are the molded elements. No wonder he doesn't want to sell them, or his stuff would lose the uniqueness it has. It doesn't surprise me. Is he to blame for such high prices? I think it's the people who pay this much money. I don't know if you noticed, but in several cases his prices already dropped - seems like the market is adjusting the prices.... Furthermore, often I used to be mad when I saw that a mini which cost me 20-25 hours of work sold for far less than another one of his creations. Well, it happens. There are plenty of other painters, and somehow people still want his stuff.... And I learned to live with it. And now, maybe there will be a cheaper solution to the problem of high prices - Scibor started castibng his own minis and parts, so maybe they will fill the gap? If you have any other questions - feel free to ask me here or at Chest of Colors. if I only have time - I will answer :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 I'm sick and tired of all the people trashtalking great artist just because they have inovative ways of doing what they do, it's people like scibors who's developing miniature painting.. keep it real, and close the tread or something! :blush: Seroiusly if I hear one more post where someone doesn't have the manners or just basic education to type the word you then I will just ignore that post. :) How about you keeping it real and with less trash talking in your writing and not demanding that the mods do their work to please you. And price. Well, I think it's quite disappointing that some people will pay $150+ for a $5 model plus a few cast parts. People would never buy a 28mm miniature with parts cast by GW for that much. Some people moan about paying the $5 in the first place, never mind paying $145 for something that is just as mass produced. Some production greens attract a lower price than this. Miniatures that are 100% scratch scuplted by professionals, people who make their livings sculpting miniatures, can go (including production rights) for less than this. I think that's shocking. As far as I can tell, people have a very dim view of how long a scratch sculpt takes, and would happily pay much more for this kind of thing than a miniature lovingly crafted by someone who is highly skilled. In a way, I think it's worrying.Most people who pay these high prices don't know that once the mould is finished there is 'little work' left. They think that it's hand made with sculpting tools and not with press-moulding. From that point of view it's very cheap, getting a relatively unique miniature for less than 200 € or $ is damn cheap. But I don't think that most of the buyers would bid that high if they knew that it's easy to reproduce. From what I have seen that is the main problem that some people have with his work. His reliance on the masses to not know that it is easy to produce.In the end it doesn't matter how it is produced if the quality is what you expected. These days you don't just buy a product but a brand. For example if you buy an expensive italian hand made suit and then learn that it was made in some sweatshop in China you would not be pleased. Scibor is not saying that his stuff is handmade or that it doesn't use moulds but extensive conversion work done on a miniature with green stuff has an implicit connotation of being handmade and time-consuming. Some months ago he had a little copy & paste part under each miniature in CMON that explained that his stuff was moulded but that disappeared and I think that these people who were attacking him for his 'misdirection' (or rather absence of any direction and information to his work) will probably resume at some point. For anyone who wants to try this at home (the filigree on his moulds) Cyril Abati made a little tutorial for that on creafigs.com but it was in some long thread about Scibors work if I remember correctly but the short version looks like this: Damn I forgot about the no-moulding rules on the B&C, tutorial removed after I read my post after hitting reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahon Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 And somehow I doubt that he is modeling heads in said program as well. That's right, he usually just casts GW ones. We're discussing the same thing on our forums... :) Honestly: I don't know... :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielTheGreat Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 like avoid next provokation and want to inform all people who look at my conversion about origin of parts of my conversion and my intention. 1: Green parts with paterns and texts are pressed in greenstuff in molds - designed by me in 3D or vector program . Molds are cuted by digital milling machine. But If You like do it without computer Please this is Cyril's tutorial and You will get similar effect. http://www.creafigs.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=99920#99920 2: Green parts like hair, fury or drapery and some small details are sculpted by dentisti tool or other small hand made tools. 3. Head is my own sculpture. 4. Base was made from fimo or casted from resin and in these case it is product of my friends from Micro Art Studio. 5. Grey plastic parts from GW . Answers for most popular questions: 1. I use tools who gives me the best result and I think that my mold is as good tool like dentistic tool. Many companys desing all parts in 3D programs. 2. My molds for armour are my design and this is not copy of somebodys work. 3. I also treat miniatures as hobby it is not true that I am psycho monster and I think only about busines. 4. If You do not like my conversion with use of parts designed in computer please find some other full hand sculpted figures in my gallery. 5. If You do not like any of my figures or me, or if any answer do not suit to Your question You may revile me, but I am afraid I probably do not pick up the gauntlet. Greetings Scibor That is gotten from his old models @ http://www.coolminiornot.com/115128 (at the bottom below the image) So he does claim that the head is his own sculpture... I guess my only question then is whether or not he is casting the head as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_m4d_skillz Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Seroiusly if I hear one more post where someone doesn't have the manners or just basic education to type the word you then I will just ignore that post. How about you keeping it real and with less trash talking in your writing and not demanding that the mods do their work to please you. If u (!) cant put u in its context and realise that I actually mean you, and that u is really just a short way of writing u, it seems to be u who're the one with a crappy education? -_- Anyway, I havent trashtalked anyone, now have I? and I'm only giving my suggestions that the tread should be closed, since there has been like a thousand of similiar treads, where some dood that never heard of scibor post a link with some miniature he recently sculpted, say something like "golly that scibor is sexier then my mother" and then ask how he can sculpt <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> like that.... and then, the scy darkens, and hell is upon us.... It's getting kinda boring, dont u think? :D just my 2 cents, piiiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obliterator Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Well, it seems once again a model cannot be judged without bashing the artist. This has gone far enough. If someone thinks this thread should be reopened, feel free to contact me. @Dr_m4d_skillz: If u (!) cant put u in its context and realise that I actually mean you, and that u is really just a short way of writing u, it seems to be u who're the one with a crappy education? 3.e. Chat and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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