32 replies to this topic

[Solis]

hmmmmm
well i was just contemplating the rules for the null rod. it states that no psychic powers what so ever may effect the character with this item or the squad he has joined, reguardless of the source.

does this just mean that if a psychic power is directly aimed at said squad, or that say that a squad of eldar with guide wouldn't be able to use it's effects.


i believe it;s just the former, but just seeing what you'll think

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Means that any psyker power that directly afects wielder's squad won'0t work.

Powers that work like guide will still work.

[Morticon]

Apologies for the threadromancy, but no need to start a new thread when there's more to add.

Warpghost is of this belief:

Null Rod renders immunity regardless of source; it works.

With regards to the null rod and the Harlequin's Seer ability of "Veil of Tears"

Im of the belief that the Null Rod (as well as the Sisters faith 6+ save and the Templars 5+ against psychic powers) do not count against this as it does not directly affect the unit in question.

For the sake of discussion and meriment could you please provide why you think one way or the other.

[Jaron95]

I agree with Warpghost, and have been involved in the big debate thread on this very topic over at 40konline.

Guide, Conceal, Fortune: these powers negatively affect enemy units indirectly in that they enhance the abilities of the Eldar. To borrow a term from MMO gaming, they are "buffs". Doom, Eldritch Storm, Destructor, and now Veil of Tears (in my interpretation) negatively affect enemy units directly in that they inflict direct damage or impose some sort of penalty ("debuffs") on the subjects.

The Shadowseer's power works like a Warlock's and it stays on throughout the duration of the game. There is no discernable "area of effect" but the "target" of the power is "any enemy units who wish to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with" Eldar codex, p 49.

[Brother Barak]

Apologies for the threadromancy

Hey, nobody doesn't not dislike threadromancy

It's a good point though... I have the same issue with my Collar of Khorne. Psychic powers that target me or include me in there area of effect are nullified on a 2+, does that include guide?

[Praeger]

Is veil of tears actually a psychic power though? Is there any note in the entry for it that it counts as a psychic power? (My codexs are packed so cant check this)

Also, could someone please explain both the question and the argument in full? Im not sure if I completly understand what is being asked.

[Jaron95]

Is veil of tears actually a psychic power though? Is there any note in the entry for it that it counts as a psychic power? (My codexs are packed so cant check this)

Also, could someone please explain both the question and the argument in full? Im not sure if I completly understand what is being asked.

The Shadowseer is specifically designated as a psyker and Veil of Tears is specifically designated as a psychic power that follows the rules for Warlock powers (no psychic test required to activate).

[Brother Barak]

Also, could someone please explain both the question and the argument in full? Im not sure if I completly understand what is being asked.

I believe the question is "does a piece of equipment that nullifies psychic powers work on powers that are not targeted at the unit that has the item in question?" or something similar. The null rod makes you immune to psychic powers, but if a Farseer casts guide on a unit of eldar guardians, and the guardians shoot you, do they get there re-roll from guide or not? One camp says no, it's the guardians that are being affected, the other camp says the psychic power is having an effect, and is nullified.

[El Magnifico]

i have to say that no, the null rod will not work.

let me explain......

this is a quote from the Daemonhunter FAQ:

".if sactuary is cast when the daemonic bearer of a Collar of Khorne is within its area of effect, sanctuary is nullified on a 2+. If not, the collar bearer cannot get within the area effect of the sanctaury power and hence cannot use the nullification effects"


now, the arguments to allow the null rod are "if the power has an effect on me, technically i can ignore it"

however, would you not aggree that the above quote is the exact same argument for a chaos player???

the sanctuary is a psychic power that is having an indirect effect on the collar bearer but he cant do anything about it. this is the same as eldar powers.

you can stop doom / eldritch storm / mind war etc as they directly target you but anything else is free to do what it likes.

[Praeger]

I beleive it would work much like this:

Any actual Psychic power used against a unit with a null-rod can be ignored (Mind War, Destructor, etc)

Any power that is used to help your own units cannot be ignored.

Viel is a power that should be in the 2nd category - its a power used on your own unit, and although it effects the enemy, it is not actually used against them (much the same how other powers which give bonus's in CC have an effect against the enemy, but cannot be used as they are not directed against the enemy).

[Nightrunner]

I beleive it would work much like this:

Any actual Psychic power used against a unit with a null-rod can be ignored (Mind War, Destructor, etc)

Any power that is used to help your own units cannot be ignored.

Viel is a power that should be in the 2nd category - its a power used on your own unit, and although it effects the enemy, it is not actually used against them (much the same how other powers which give bonus's in CC have an effect against the enemy, but cannot be used as they are not directed against the enemy).

Well, actually, I would disagree with you there as the power has no effect on your own unit whatsoever, it affects mine.
If I stick my Inquisitor and retinue in front of the Harlequins with a Null rod and I am not able to be affected by any psychic power, regardless of source why should your psychic power stop me from shooting you? As you have just said, it isn't affecting you, its affecting me. Wherever the power comes from, I can ignore it. So therefore, the Null rod would work; I have never heard anyone try to argue that one differently?!?!?

Edited by Nightrunner, 19 April 2007 - 11:15 AM.

[Morticon]

Nightrunner - yeah you have - there are like 4 people in this thread that think differently.

The problem with your arguement, is for this argument to hold true with this power, it must hold true with all others.

Eg:

A libby with might of the emperor who gets d3 extra attacks cannot use those attacks against the Inq squad?

Jaron-

You cant make words up and stick them in to suit your argument dude.
Firstly - buff schmuff.
Secondly- theres no dinstinction in 40k about directly or indirectly affecting.
Thirdly - there is no mention that the "target" is any unit wishing to attack them - you just made that up. Bad rules lawyer - bad!

Im still open to the possibility, but..need more convincing.

[Fazzadien]

Look at it this way: What is the power actually doing? If Veil of Tears directly affecting the enemy units by blinding them, making them hallucinate, or what have you, then I'd go with the interpretation that the null rod (and assorted related stuff) would work against it. If it affects the Harlies by making them blend in, go invisible, makes a purple cloud around them, or something like that... well then, the null rod wouldn't work. I tend to think that null rods don't work.

Lots of things affect an enemy unit without having anything to do with directly doing something to them. If you move a unit into cover, enemy units will find it harder to hurt them. If you turbo boost a bike, your enemies have to deal with an invul save. And many other examples.

[El Magnifico]

I beleive it would work much like this:

Any actual Psychic power used against a unit with a null-rod can be ignored (Mind War, Destructor, etc)

Any power that is used to help your own units cannot be ignored.

Viel is a power that should be in the 2nd category - its a power used on your own unit, and although it effects the enemy, it is not actually used against them (much the same how other powers which give bonus's in CC have an effect against the enemy, but cannot be used as they are not directed against the enemy).

Well, actually, I would disagree with you there as the power has no effect on your own unit whatsoever, it affects mine.
If I stick my Inquisitor and retinue in front of the Harlequins with a Null rod and I am not able to be affected by any psychic power, regardless of source why should your psychic power stop me from shooting you? As you have just said, it isn't affecting you, its affecting me. Wherever the power comes from, I can ignore it. So therefore, the Null rod would work; I have never heard anyone try to argue that one differently?!?!?

did you read my comment/quote above about the collar of khorne???

it specificaly states the same rules as the null rod except that it stops any psychic power on a 2+ instaed of automatically. sanctuary is not targeted at the collar "bearer" but still has an effect on him. as it is not targeted at him, his collar means that he cant nullify it.

this is the same as the null rod

are you saying that the warlock conceal power is ignored as its effect is to make it harder for your inquisitor to kill anything by shooting.

are you saying that you ignore the embolden power as its effect is that your inquisitor cannot make someone run away as easily.

hell, are you saying that a daemonhost gets no save against you because it uses psychic wards and the power of the warp to generate its save???


stop trying to overpower the null rod, yes it is a very useful bit of kit - its just not that good

[Beast]

As a side issue to the null rod question... Would Veil of Tears be considered as a "minor" psychic power (and hence have no effect on Grey Knights?) or a "major" psychic power that they have no power against? Since the old "minor psychic powers" list GW put out a few years back is no longer valid, what do they consider a "minor psychic power" now? Perhaps this should be a topic of it's own??? If so then sorry...

[Fazzadien]

It isn't affecting the Grey Knights, it's affecting the Harlequins. The results of that effect are felt by the GKs, but not the direct effect, so it doesn't matter if it's a major or minor power.

It's like a psychic power blowing up a tank next to some GKs who have a guy with a null rod - they might not be directly affected by the blast that cracked the tank, but the tank brewing up will surely affect them.

[DogRobber]

The Veil of tears power states "The Shadowseer uses her power to confuse and terrify her foe." Sounds like it directly affects my unit with a null rod.

[Praeger]

Psychic powers are only minor if they are actually mentioned as such.

So unless there is a note with the Eldar powers (there isnt) then they count as normal "majour" psychic powers.

[Angelus Mortis]

A null rod only protects the bearer and his unit. Guide is not being cast on them, its being cast on the Eldar so you can't nullify it. If you want to nullify guide, buy a Psychic Hood.

[Nightrunner]

Hey guys! I did indeed read your posts before, but here is the way it has always been in my mind and I didn't put it as clearly as I could have as I had a class waiting to barge into my classroom!

First things first though, I need to point out an important point here in this debate:

did you read my comment/quote above about the collar of khorne???

it specificaly states the same rules as the null rod except that it stops any psychic power on a 2+ instaed of automatically. sanctuary is not targeted at the collar "bearer" but still has an effect on him. as it is not targeted at him, his collar means that he cant nullify it.

this is the same as the null rod

Actually, its not, and this is the important point here. A Null Rod means that the bearer and the unit are totally unaffected by any psychic powers, regardless of source. The Collar of Khorne only affects powers that include or target the bearer. Big difference!

Right.....

Of course, I would expect guide to work on a unit targeting my unit with a Null rod. My personal take on the Null Rod Vs. the Veil of Tears is that the Null rod directly affects my unit i.e. I have to test to see how far that I can see to shoot you.

Guide does nothing to me; it means you get more shots on target. That is not a psychic power affecting me.

Fortune does nothing to me; it means you get to re-roll your saves, which is again something that affects your unit.

I would however have to argue conceal, as the warlock apparently clouds the minds of the enemy. Sounds pretty much like I am being affected there, too


Thats just how I see it. I didn't mention daemonhosts (lets not be silly, eh? ), siren (another valid case! Hurrah!) or any other powers, because I dont think it affects them and in the GW that I play at, I have never seen anyone else have a problem with the uses of a Null Rod.

The point I am trying to make, then, is that it DOES directly affect my unit, as I have to roll a spotting distance to see you!
Which means I am affected by the power, which must be canceled by the Null Rod.

Praegar, you said that you beleive it would work much like this in terms of types of pyschic power:

Any actual Psychic power used against a unit with a null-rod can be ignored (Mind War, Destructor, etc)

Any power that is used to help your own units cannot be ignored.

Viel is a power that should be in the 2nd category - its a power used on your own unit, and although it effects the enemy, it is not actually used against them (much the same how other powers which give bonus's in CC have an effect against the enemy, but cannot be used as they are not directed against the enemy).

The bold text is my own addition, as you have stated the point here that is making me disagree over this point! This power directly affects me; it even says so in the description of the power in the codex (p.49):

that the Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe.

There is no FAQ for this, so at the end of the day it comes down to how we as individuals want to play the rule in our games. However, my own experiences have given me no reason to think otherwise over this, and neither have any other arguments here. Hope that clears up my stance on these things, I'm sure someone will have a comment ready for me!

and finally:

stop trying to overpower the null rod, yes it is a very useful bit of kit - its just not that good

This is just my opinion, lets keep it civil and on topic as it was my interest in this topic that got me to post in the first place! I have no input into the GW rules, so don't pin it on me!

Let the debate continue!

NR

Edited by Nightrunner, 19 April 2007 - 04:15 PM.

[Spinsane]

I, too, believe the Shadowseer's Veil works against the Null Rod... Sure enough, it affects the way your Inquisitor's ability to shoot the unit, but that is not the purpose of the spell. It cloaks the unit. The target of the spell is the unit itself, not the Inquisitor.

In fluff terms, the spell doesn't befuddle your Inquisitor, it creates a clood of darkness or whatever around the harleys, rendering them harder to target. Can the Null Rod pierce trough that darkness just because it is generated by a psychic power? I'd think not; sure enough the I couldn't be targetted by a Tzeentch sorcerer's fireballs, but he'd better have fireproof boots if he walks on a floor that has been set afire by the same fireball. The first is a psychic power, the second isn't anymore, it's real heat. Same goes with the Veil. While the means of conceilment are psychic, the effects are real enough. Now were the Null Rod to, say, nullify psychic powers used within or target on units within x" then that'd be an entirely new story...

[Nightrunner]

Spinsane, I have two points that I want to query about your post?

I, too, believe the Shadowseer's Veil works against the Null Rod... Sure enough, it affects the way your Inquisitor's ability to shoot the unit, but that is not the purpose of the spell. It cloaks the unit. The target of the spell is the unit itself, not the Inquisitor.

The target is any unit that is wishing to target the harlies, and actually, the Unit shooting is filled with terrbile visions.....see my quote above!

In fluff terms, the spell doesn't befuddle your Inquisitor, it creates a clood of darkness or whatever around the harleys, rendering them harder to target.

Again, see above, this is not the case!

[The WarpGhost]

Veil of Tears specifically states its the psyker using the power on enemies. Just because it doesnt require a psychic test doesnt mean jack, thats psychic hoods not Null Rods that are circumvented.
"The Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe". In this regard, as long as the anti-psychic equipment isnt trying to act against a psychic test, the effects of Veil of Tears can be as readily nullified as a Warlock using Destructor. Noone has mentioned the Tzeentch Warp Blade, which has an effect on absolutely any psychic power whether it needs a test or not, effects the wielder or not. Even Null Rod cant go that far, yet its even harder to argue against the Warp Blade's effects.

Even if you try and argue from a purely fluff standpoint (always dangerous in GW games ), the Shadowseer is always noted as working on the affected mind, not actually phsycially creating illusions; they can only create them in the minds of others.

With Guide and Enhance, at no point is the power affecting the Null Rod's unit; its the weapons of the affected squad that are. Veil of Tears is not in that catagory as its being used against enemy units, not on the Shadowseer's unit. However, against Warp Blade they are all stated as psychic powers used by psykers, and if they happen in 12" they are rafffected as normal by the Warp Blade.

Edited by The WarpGhost, 19 April 2007 - 09:17 PM.

[Jaron95]

Jaron-

You cant make words up and stick them in to suit your argument dude.
Firstly - buff schmuff.
Secondly- theres no dinstinction in 40k about directly or indirectly affecting.
Thirdly - there is no mention that the "target" is any unit wishing to attack them - you just made that up. Bad rules lawyer - bad!

Im still open to the possibility, but..need more convincing.

Off topic: I didn't make anything up. "Buffs" and "debuffs" have been a staple of games that employ magical abilities since the beginning of such games. I stuck them in to support my argument, not to suit it: buffs affect friendly units, and debuffs affect enemy units. Might of Heroes is a buff, Enhance is a buff, Conceal is a buff, The Horror is a debuff, Doom is a debuff, Veil of Tears is a debuff; any psychic powers that do not inflict direct damage but instead affect some sort of bonus or penalty can be split into these two distinct categories. GW may not refer to them in these terms, but their purpose and effects define them as such.

On topic: Secondly and thirdly, the Veil rule defines who is affected and when they become subject to the power. I mentioned it in my previous post, but it was at the end and some people may not have read that far.

Veil of Tears affects "any enemy units who wish to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with," Eldar codex, p 49. This makes no mention of affecting Eldar units, Harlequin or otherwise. I'm no RAW nazi, but it's spelled out pretty clearly right there.

I'm arguing in favor of the anti-psyker powers, yet my main army is Eldar.

[Nightrunner]

Which just goes to show why Tzeentch is the lord of sorcerers.......!

For all those who are opposed to my views on this, I have one final example to use:

An inquisitor is on his lonesome, 30" away from a unit of Harlequins who are not in cover, out of LOS or anything that you can think of.

I declare that I want to shoot my inquisitor at your Harlequins.

You say "Haha, you can't, he is outside of the max range of the veil of tears".

I say "he has a null rod, that explicitly states that he can't be affected by any psychic powers, whatever the source".

At which point, you tell me "But it isn't targeted at him".

so I repeat "he has a null rod, that explicitly states that he can't be affected by any psychic powers, whatever the source".

How can you propose that he should be affected by the psychic power if he cannot be affected by psychic powers?

Thats it, I'm done!