Captain Idaho

Loves me my faction dice. I prefer to have them for every faction I play and I include even Mordheim or Necromunda for that!

I think Games Workshop falls into the same trap as modern video games developers in that they believe their own hype about themselves and believe they're the industry savants to which the customer base follows or is just wrong. They don't get their cues from customers, rather dictate to customers what they think the customer wants. They even have fallen into the same prattle habits politically, rather than just doing their jobs. So really... I'm not surprised GW never understood that Tactical Marines and all the other staples of Space Marines were sacrosanct. After all, like them or loath them, Primaris would never have been set up as an alternative/replacement to Firstborn in the first place.

Here's another catachan amongst the tau... with the death of Firstborn in 40K, could this be a definitive draw factor for Heresy now?

Well it's news, innit.

We certainly can, but this topic is specifically about Space Marine units going into legends. To discuss the rules and units going into the Space Marine Codex, a different topic would be required.

Whilst some people might like to grumble but give in anyway and buy Primaris, I can honestly say I've gone the other way. I've sold my 40K Ultramarines. They're dead to me, I don't have unlimited space and screw it, I'd rather have the money for Magic the Gathering or video games. More than that, I saw what Horus Heresy did to that game. Look at how many iconic Heresy units were dropped at the beginning of the edition then corporate realised the backlash so released a rushed PDF. GW had it's defenders, sure. They said it was always intended. But we know that once you're in a Legends status you have 1 edition then you're done. Or none in the case of Devastators and Tactical Marines or Assault Marines that weren't even listed. And the PDF had the dates of updates on it and people saw that and it's online dor us to see. GW never intended to give us Destroyers or many of the selections. Rules notwithstanding (which I detest for both 40K and to a lesser extend Heresy) the trust has gone. So I can't be bothered to buy into Heresy now either. That's a longer explanation than perhaps necessary, but essentially the business model of Games Workshop has lost much of my interest. I do NOT give them my hard fought income. I'll play some out of production, unsupported games that I kept the miniatures for, generally skirmish games. I've got Old World and Legions Imperialis and Adeptus Titanicus. Necromunda too. Already got those models, ebay and my 3D printer covers the rest. In summary I'm trying to demonstrate a loss in trust. Games Workshop has lost me as a long term supporter, someone who followed each edition of 40K excitedly. If you believe your loyal investment to Primaris will be rewarded with a return in loyalty, take a look at Suppressors, Hammerfell bunker, or impending doom of Outriders etc. Look at Uriel or Pedro Kantor. The narrative that "Games Workshop is a business and will want to replace models so Firstborn were always due to go" is a logic that holds with Primaris too. And looking at Magic the Gathering comparatively, they have made precious few cards obsolete despite being around for a similar amount of time as Games Workshop. If MtG can do it, whilst having much cleaner rules added in, why can't Games Workshop maintain consistent and published rules for historic items? I mean, we know the myriad of answers to that, the point I'm making is they bloody well should.

=][= A mod has said to stop the back and forth with Primaris and Firstborn, which includes personal attacks. I've removed a post that does just that, no more ignoring Mod directive will be tolerated guys =][=

Huh, I remember more than a few people arguing so forthrightly that Firstborn are not being replaced and GW aren't replacing my financially expensive collection that I dedicated my finite time painting. I guess I was completely overreacting.

Yeah I'd totally want something different for my leader. On the bright side, Orlocks can embrace Hip-shooting with combat shotguns to rush forward and template folk to oblivion. Annoying that I have to use my leader like that too. Especially as without Nerves of Steel his melee weapon is potentially useless.

You know what, I'd actually be happier if it was. Because the current edition of any game becomes the default in people's eyes, regardless of the small number of people who might delve into precious editions of anything. So if the game becomes officially unsupported, there is space in the mind's eye of the community to adopt and take forward the mantle of the game, likely leading with 2.0 and progressing from there. It's what happened with Blood Bowl, Epic, Mordheim and BFG in fact and the consensus there exists pretty readily.

There is also a resale value for miniatures that doesn't quite exist for video games (especially with the move to digital) beyond a few niches, which definitely makes a prospective collector consider the cost to be somewhat diminished. Whilst many of us DO NOT sell things ( I am guilty of this at times) I must confess I did sell my 40K Ultramarines due to several factors that I stand by to this day. And it did help me with my hobby costs. (My children. My children stole it) Another factor that plays with the video game bubble bursting potentially. All reasons why the ceiling for the GW profit to price hike ratio seems sooooo high.

I'm gonna throw a wild card into the mix, both in parlance here and in economical hypotheticals. What if the price of the hobby, going up as it may be, is the lesser of 2 evils with the prices of the real big industry, video games? Video games have definitely over reached. They've put way too much sunk cost into new AAA titles, games need to make waaaaay to much to earn their costs without record sales. If it isn't "returning billions of dollars in 6 months of release, the game is a failure" type thing. Same somewhat for films but that doesn't necessarily factor in here to my incoming hypothesis. It isn't just video games that themselves are sneaking up dramatically in cost (Grand Theft Auto is looking at over £100 for the next release, an increase of about 50%) but also the next generation of games consoles which will be having a massive price spike. The latest new games console (or equivalent) released is the Steam Machine. At over £1200 for passable version to utilise (you'll need the game pad and you'll need the extra 500gb memory space, as I have a Steamdeck and trust me... yes) that's just way too much. PS5 is rumoured to be close to that amount too. So with these large price rises in an industry that is actually dominant and would make miniatures collecting and gaming, it makes the price of Games Workshop products seem modest in comparison. Let's be clear, the kids ain't gonna just jump into Warhammer in the same numbers as video games, of course! But it's the margins at the side. People like me, older "kids" who still game. Parents who look at what to get Tarquin and Sebastian into something cheaper for Christmas than a £1K+ games console. (Cookie for the reference to class based consumer base there, for funsies) Is it possible, considering all this, that paying £300-£400 on a warhammer hobby a year looks like the cheaper investment compared to the big outlay of a new console and £300-£400 in games a year that is beyond the price of most people? Is that the calculation Games Workshop are taking into account somehow, despite seemingly incompetent games writers at times? (And yes tongue firmly in cheek)

Champions and Leaders get to select a skill from their Primary skills available. This is actually a little annoying for my Orlock as that means either shooting or Savant, when I wanted Nerves of Steel. But fine, that's how the game goes eh.

Yeah it does.

Sorry but I suspect you may have been gaslit by GW on this one. Jokes aside, there's just about no one, maybe 3 people, who is a fan of Warhammer fantasy that thinks the game wasn't destroyed and removed because AoS existed. Warhammer fantasy was very much axed and it had much more investment than Heresy ever had as a mainline game. I'll be more specific to what I said as I suspect it was missed: Games Workshop see numbers and what niche does Heresy bring in that isn't covered by 40K? Both operate at similar scale with squads and vehicles and attached characters. Both are heavily focused on Space Marines. Both are even using similar scaled miniatures too. Ergo if you're a bean counter, Heresy needs to bring in more than just fill the same niche. Frater here above have pointed out that this "concern" is very much possible but they also see the game as the more "mature hobby veteran" outlet which is definitely a credible niche. I won't speak for everyone but their posts do point out this an other things above for a discussion on it if you'd like to as they made the point and made it better than I. As for Aeronatica, no one really played that before Xenos. Bringing in Xenos was just an attempt to address the balance in hope. The Adeptus Titanicus reference you made supports my concerns, points out the niche for the game aspect that keeps a game existing despite little mainline support. I hope this transfers to Legions Imperialis and indeed Horus Heresy 3.0, though Horus Heresy 3.0 is perhaps special because it was being treated as a mainline gaming system but is struggling so might be looked at differently. You've referenced the problem with Legions Imperialis is the scale issue, which could be a problem. However, player base is relevant. If the number of people willing to engage with the scale of Legions Imperialis is say 10% and you only have 2 main factions and all human (the titans and knights being extensions of the 2 main factions in essence anyway) then you're reducing the pool of players. If you added Xenos, you could infact bring in that 10% from a wider, deeper pool of players. Anecdotally, my gaming group have said they'd try Legions Imperialis if they had Necrons, Tyranids and Orks respectively. (I have fan made rules for the latter 2 and Eldar actually) Tying that into Heresy 3.0, the draw to it used to be assisted by the Heresy novels as a promotion aspect. Since the Heresy novels have finished and are moving into Scouring but without the fanfare there was, we have a reduced promotional draw. Extending Heresy, including all variants, with Scouring or Crusade forces provides a solution that can offset just copying 40K. Factions can be unique to the setting due to the extended timeline. (Legions Imperialis does need to consider Tyranids mind. They were a cool concept for Epic back in the day and would be solely missed but that's neither here or there)