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I'd assume these are 3 man units? I have to agree... they're almost like two different dataslates at this point. Since I am playing Sagas, and I like Ragnar with BC's, I'm running mostly shields. Again I might be biased because I'm playing against a high volume of marine killing armies. Votann is another example. Tons of cover denial, higher AP, 2 damage weapons. I often infiltrate the 3 man shield units. But I do love my 6 man shield unit with the Wolf Priest. They can be really tough to get rid of. Personally I have been taking the Wolves add on units with them. My armies tend to get a bit small and elite, and everything is fairly expensive with the lack of 5 man units in the codex. At this point I may just make 2 squads, 6 dudes each, with each loadout!

Yea that’s what I’m doing with Bjorn as well. I have him babysitting wolves which seems oddly fluffy and they have OC this way. on Logan: thankfully I’ve only really used this on his own unit but thanks for the warning. Terrible restriction though and nit really apparent in other codexes. It makes me wonder if the long range goal is to stop everyone from borrowing from the main marine codex and using any detachment to full effect ( unless that detachment is in your specific book… ie Gladius) So who is running Headtakers with shields, vs double armed?

Thanks for the info Dan. I’ve run Headtakers both ways and I’m not really finding the extra attacks are quite enough to offset a 4+ invuln will get you. Ironically as you mentioned , I happened to run 6 with shields and the priest. They’re a real pain to get rid of. I think both builds work but if I was in a cut throat tournament playing purely to win, I’m taking shields. Last night I played against Thousand sons. The amount of times they can put you on a 6+ save is truly staggering. I found the shields nearly mandatory. They’re a real 1K sons can feel very oppressive at 12-18”. so I had two games recently. Played Saga for both. I’m not seeing a real use for the other 2 Sagas. Some quick notes as I, pressed for time: - oddly enough I wasn’t all that impressed with Grimnar. He looks so good on paper but it’s his CP ability, and deep strike abilities rhat really make him shine. Personally I think Azrael and Calgar are a bit better. But Logan is still economical, as are Azrael and Calgar. ( I’ve played the later 2 quite a bit in the past year). The Logan model is just too damn good to not play regardless. What a sculpt - head takers. I’m still split. If fielding 3 , shields are a must. I’m most likely bringing them off an edge in a sticky situation, maybe even an action. And they need shields. 6 man? I’ve run them each way in two games. Against a janky GSC army the dual armed but hard and faded fast. Against Tsons, as mentioned shields were gold. If money weren’t an option I’d do 6 of each (I field 9) - Termies. I may take heat for this, but they stink. They’re simply meat to protect Logan. They have very little kill potential, and feel a little expensive. I think Headtakers are a far better choice. However I love these models and will continue to use a squad. I’d really love to get Arjac in the mix with some but I fear the list becomes too small and inefficient. - the troops are okay. The Grey Hunters are certainly over priced but in my second game they finally out OC’d an opponent long enough to deny a point they were sure they had. Lack of special rules/weapons and their size and points do make these a tough choice. But I’m getting okay results with 10 of them and 10 Bloodclaws. - Bjorn is great. Feels in a good spot and fairly fluffy. - iron priest. Already seeing a nerf…. But till now is great with my pred annihilator. hopefully I can post some pics in a hobby thread soon. I met my goal of finishing the pre release box set this last Saturday!

Thanks Dan, that's some great info/feedback. So you're actually taking 40 Troops? Wow. That is kind of going against the mainstream, but I like it, and you can't argue with success. I am still leaning towards Headtakers w/Shields. I just see the extra two attacks as 'okay' but the 4+ invuln almost essential to get opponents to really commit. But that's just me. Maybe more of a... playstyle preference. I may just do a second squad of 3 with dual swords. How has Logan/Terminators done for you?

So this is kind of an indirect comment on the 'way of Wolves' and I'm jut thinking out loud here. I've had a couple of games with my World Eaters and in the past 3-4 games I've very much been keeping my Wolves' ideas/strats in mind. I just played Thousand Sons. Let me tell you that can be an oppressive army. I heard the horror stories, and saw some competitive batreps but last night I faced it for the first time. Long story short, there's no way that I would even consider doing a full out assault with Wolves against the Thousand Sons (particularly what I saw across from me.) Just for clarity; my WE are exceptionally fast, advance and charge available, and 'bloodsurge' towards opponents in their shooting phase. I played a strong game, I got a bit lucky with 2 x 11" charges and literally had my way with that army and still by T4 I had almost nothing left. The shooting and psychic is so oppressive... I often had no save, or I was saving against Flamers with AP-3, and bolters with AP-3. That army completely mows elite infantry, all of it. It was only my speed and long bomb charges that won me the game. Further I don't think the Wolves are going to out assault the likes of WE and Deathguard. I don't like those match ups at all. The Wolves seem to want to steer you generally towards infantry/assault but I am seeing that it's going to be extremely beneficial to have a heavy dose of shooting in the list. At this point I'm thinking my assault units will only be specialized units, but I think most of the list is going to have to have competent range.

To me one of the deepest flaws is that GW cannot differentiate from unit 'X' as used in Detachment "1" or detachment "2-5" or Army type. etc. Perfect example is Intercessors with jump packs. Nearly mediocre to most marines, but very potent with Blood Angels. The result is all marines suffer the point increases. Berzerkers kind of fit a bit into that issue. A Berzerker in any other detachment aside from Warband is incredibly lethargic by comparison. So on another note, I'm at it again tonight. I'm stick back with Warband. I'd love to try Angron but I just can't fit him now, and the DP is literally the only reliable CP management which I think is very needed. The goofy thing I want to try is 2 Maulerfiends. Ideally I may go back to a Helbrute, and get rid of both Maulers because they are a little too overpriced, and if I ditch them it allows me to put at least one squad of Spawn back in the list which are so good. (But more expensive than Jakhals!) The thing about Maulers is they really scare people with their movement and 'lascannon fists'. It's a fun unit. EDIT: Just for clarity I don't have Forgefiends. I know everyone is using them. I know they're good I'm just experimenting with out them. ALSO.... I love my 8 bound/exalted. Probably too expensive but with Slaughterbound HQ's they are fun. (incredibly expensive though.)

Well I guess I'm pulling out my old Predator and Lancer. I do wish speeders went down a bit as I do love the anti tank one with it's +1 to wound mechanic. (I have used it off and on for years and it does keep getting cheaper.) I'm going to avoid the Gladius. I just sold a larger UM and DA army for that reason. (I don't need a bunch of armies that play the same detachment.) How big of a kick would it be to see SM codex 2.0 say that non-codex standard chapters can't use their detachments? Pure chaos? An exodus to "Ultra Wolves"? Or do people make these Saga's work? BTW: I haven't really fielded my Desolation marines since the nerf to 5 men, and 200(?) points. How are they doing?

Nope you understand me... I'm just using it wrong.... ! I bought a handy chart on etsy that I use to keep all my game turn rolls accurate and I've been playing it wrong. Wow that changes a ton... I mean that is night and day. I do find though that I get a ton of wounds through on a 6 man squad. Even taking away the Dev Wounds it does seem pretty potent in Warband. Usually I do have Sus1 running by T2+ which also helps. It just occurred to me that the once per game Slaughterbound Dev wounds, extra attacks was a big part of that.

This is kind of funny to me. (Not funny haha, but funny - strange.) So I play a lot of armies. A lot of Chaos started getting the 10 man 'treatment' and then it seems to have bled into Marines. But with Chaos your getting a strong buff usually, and although 10 Berzerkers is debatable over 5, with E.C. there was a good advantage there. But all in all, these aren't game breaking in "kill power". That being said a lot of the game is still action based, and you've got a real problem here with all marines having expensive-ish troops and can't do actions unless they find a monkey squad. Not too mention with Wolves this 10 man treatment is one of the reasons Grey Hunters aren't making the most competitive cuts. Conversely 5 man intercessor squads (especially since the Boltrifle improvement) are so much better with Sticky as well as double shooting. D.A. is in a similar spot (but granted they don't have the same specialized Troop units.) It makes you wonder where this is going. Maybe battleline should have 'do actions/act normal' or something to bring them back to a desirable level.)

Supporting my last post…. I happened to play Votann coincidentally again only this time with Warband. Big difference. Again the codex is written for it. Otherwise Zerkers are really lethargic. This was a huge mistake by GW I know facing T5 like DG is ugly with S4 and you’re also at -1 toughness. Although I personally did not want to try the daemon variant, I also didn’t want to be locked in the index detachment over the others. ++EDIT++ I just wanted to add that I'm not using Helbrutes to any great effect yet although they are touted as the bee's knees in this codex. (I field too much infantry and usually find the odd armour piece decimated by T2-3.) One of my favourite units that I am trying to field in respectable numbers are the Eightbound/Exalted. The Exalted are almost mandatory in my experience, and get a good boost from Warband. I'm still not a fan of the B.S. 4 stuff even with the rapid fire bonuses. It's just too much gambling for my playstyle; meanwhile the Exalted are going to punch through just about any armour. If you get Dev wounds on the chart, it's a potent combo. These guys are expensive, but nearly mandatory in my lists.

Who really cares what it’s called? I mean if you’re grabbing stuff from the main codex, they’re all a from of supplement. I probable shouldn’t compare but Wolves have a good chunk of bad units, a few strong ones and will get the majority of their shooting from the main Dex…..sound familiar? I played BT for many years and at the end of the day it always felt carried by strong infantry lead by strong characters. This might still be the case. Honestly I feel like we’re very close to a new edition or dramatic enough changes via SM codex 2.0. BA have been top or near top of the SM meta a long time. It would be good to see BT really compete for that. Though I’m tired of everyone aside from BA just using the Gladius. BT will hopefully have a real detachment(s) to use.

Tigurius. It’s great to hear you chime in but some of this is kind of disappointing. First off you think the troops are a failure at their current points. That makes Blood claws undesirable and Greyhunters terrible. This really sucks. Do the extra attacks on the Headtakers +2) really worth losing the invuln? Against some lists that just seems really counterintuitive. I seem to get hit by -2 a lot. And the Sagas still don’t touch the Gladius/Stormlance apparently ( hearing this from a few sources). This totally blows. I went through a year of DA having terribly uncompetitive detachments. GW has to wake up on this already. It’s way past due. on the Wulfen, I’m not surprised. I realized quite early I’d probably skip this unit in favour of more TWC. I think too many units need strong character leadership to really work so unless someone ants to run 5+ characters, Wulfen are a tough choice. intersecting you have the Desolators I never did get rid of mine but I’m trying to shift to Eradicators. Great trick BTW on swapping targets.

I'm definitely looking at the Iron Priests. For now as I rebuild my collection I'm pretty certain I'm going to start with an Iron Priest + Landraider. It takes up points which I don't have right now, but 6 lascannons and 2 Hunterkillers is no joke!

I'm glad to hear the new Saga is playable. It's probably one of my more uncertain concerns with the codex. I'm just not hot on the "if you do this, then that..." kind of rule. I was noticing none of the old dreads are getting replaced... and shooting is going to be an issue. I am seeing a lot of Ballistus or almost mandatory 6 man Eradicators. I know for my World Eaters it's not an issue because the Exalted Eight Bound with Dev Wounds up and running can level a Knight. There doesn't seem to be any option near that for Wolves? I play against a lot of vehicle heavy lists so it is a concern.

Yea, it's just so hard to be sure of what makes sense before that first point adjustment after a codex comes out. But if Njal is a reasonable point value, I love the model and would love to place him there.