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Come out swinging.... Well they've hardly been out. We could say Thousand Sons took substantial nerfs in points... but some of those units were incredible and you were seeing 3 in many lists of certain units. I think one thing that is just not being addressed (other than Grey Hunters) is the Detachments. I'm personally sick of every single marine player (no matter the chapter) just trying to min-max the Gladius. I know GW tried a subtle 'nerf' to other chapters by removing the +1 to wound of Oath, however this is a very strong indicator that it doesn't matter. Fix Sagas. I think World Eaters will pick up a LOT of competitive band wagoneers! I think some of those may be Wolves players. If I were GW, I certainly would have waited a bit longer after Knight nerfs. (Wolves had some unique ways of dealing with them.) Anyway, I just came on to say I've reworked some of my lists. Basically this has forced me to pull the fun/fat out of the lists (except Grey Hunters because I'm super stubborn, and they're painted!) Back to multi-Headtakers , Predators, multi WGBL. Gone is Arjac, extra Termies, Ragnar, Iron Priest, and Ballistus from all lists.

Better in melee.... lol. Yea but they're still carrying toothpicks and in almost any case you know you're not relying on them for anything critical in melee. I think the Grey Hunter problem is a big issue. Points, sizing, function and rules. You just said it really, the common intercessor has a real role. Every time I make a list I want to pull the Grey Hunters. In my last... 6 games (?) give or take, they have been really disappointing. Bloodclaws are understandably a one shot, one and done, blunt object that might get some work done... pretty much as intended. But Grey Hunters are in a terrible spot. (So is Njal.) Maybe next time?

Great stuff. Yea the face sculpts are really good with the Wolves. You've done them great justice. Love the basework too!

I agree with your take. I don't think it's negative... it's basically facts. :) GW updated their app for ios yesterday and I reloaded my lists. I agree with you about Khârn being about the equivalent of Ragnar (though I can perceive of a list without Ragnar, but not without Khârn). Regardless, here's the part that gets me: All my Wolves 2K lists loaded up to about 2035 (give or take) All my World Eaters 2K lists loaded up to about 1975 (give or take). That doesn't seem right. My 8bound/X8bound just got very spicy. The rest got better except Spawn which were incredibly good/utilitarian. Wolves? Not only did the core Wolves units largely get hit, but all the auxiliary units did too. This is tough to swallow on top of (as you note) stuff like Grey Hunters didn't get a rules or points tweak - which let's be honest do not even make an appearance on top tables. This is flat wrong in my opinion. I use one squad of Grey Hunters just because it feels wrong to pull them out but they are definitely bringing down the competitive level of my lists... this is multiplied by being forced into 10. Funny thing is part of the reason I took Ballistus is for the foot print. A lot of tables are ugly in 10th... tons of little boxes on the table. I like the extra room in my zone. I stopped taking the Redemptors... I have to figure something out here... the point increase threatens to make my lists a little too small now. I like my Termies/elite units. I can see I may have to just cut headtakers to keep Termies, or vice versa, but both seem to be asking a bit much. It will be interesting to see what happens to our termies when the Assault variant get added to the vanilla codex along side their superior Oath. Maybe points come down for Wolves at that point? Overall this is rough. I'm thinking of bringing back vanilla marine units that I don't want to... scouts, intercessors... dump grey hunters and some elite units. Not sure yet.

Very nice Wispy. Love the cloak work on the priest. Where are you using him?

I'm a little surprised I haven't seen this posted yet. (Unless I missed it!) I've stolen this from Youtube just to get a summary for anyone that missed it: So first off I'm just going to say in my 'fun' list... that is to say not hyper competitive, I was running 3 TWC, Ragnar, and Arjac. This puts my fun list at + 35. Which I'm just going to say aside from Ragnar isn't making a lot of sense. I never felt my use of TWC was anything much beyond 'fluffy for Wolves". They were/are solid, and they kind of fit that niche of being a good army specific unit that was well priced. I guess people were mowing down opposition with multiple large squads. I wasn't doing this. I think Arjac is a miss. And I think they missed the opportunity to do something useful to Njal who probably remains the least used named character and is left that way after this update. The larger picture sees the Ballistus, and a few other units take a hit that probably sway people back to cheaper, alternatives. Just wondering what this has meant (if anything) to your lists?

I'm just going to be contrarian because it's what I do.... :) My Headtakers that are double armed with the Battle Leader (Hammer) almost always have more attacks than I need unless going into a super hard target which may indicate a miss target on my part. I still favour the hammer/shield. Double armed headtakers with Sus1/Lethal seem to hit pretty hard in numbers in all my games. This is just me because I've been getting matched up against a lot of anti infantry lately.... Those damn Thousand Sons (appropriately so?) are becoming my most hated foe with the Headtakers. The dual armed ones are seen as a huge head ache. I get wasted by the -2/full reroll hit/wound squads and flamers and often which for those shields.

Nice job bitz. Glad to see you mulling about. I am surprised there wasn't a bit more of the character-fu in your list. I do see a lot of lists that juggle around units, but one thing that stays consistent is the characters (named and otherwise) seem to be heavily represented. Personally over the past 20+ years I cannot seem to get over my love of terminators. So I completely understand sticking to your favourites and riding with them even when it's not necessarily 'meta' to do so. I'm glad you're liking the Grey Hunters. Personally I'm using 1 squad, and a 1 squad of Bloodclaws. I wonder if your trick with the Battle Leader would work with two squads of pistol wielding Bloodclaws? (I do like their advance/charge.) So would you stick to Beast Slayer? Or consider another detachment? (Personally I will not play Gladius with this army.)

Sorry I missed some of these generous comments. Thank you!

Sounds good. As a side note one thing I did find out after searching a bit is that he has been thinking if he uses the -1 damage strat, he can invoke that rule, and I did find out that isn't possible since the rubric rule is only triggered by unmodified damage 1. Well I guess this just got a whole lot uglier for those of us in the group with a strong bolter presence! (This army is so oppressive to face with infantry.) Further to this: It's the order of operation that had me wondering. What he's doing is getting hit by -1 in cover. He uses cover to get back to a 3+, THEN invokes his detachment rule, getting to a 2+ save by combining the two rules. This was the part I was unsure of.

I don't have the Thousand Sons codex, and I forget the exact wording of the detachment that lets the player ignore AP if the damage is 1. The problem is that in our group we've been pretty much convinced it's not possible to increase a save from 3+ to 2+. (Typically this is by means of cover.) However the Thousand Sons player in this case is insistent that his detachment rule gets around this and he can get to a 2+ save with his standard Rubrics. Does this sound right?

This is exactly what I did with my one squad of Termies. The thing I've realized even when I played Dark Angels is the Termies aren't really potent enough to be a threat. They are essentially ablative wounds for the characters in my armies. I have rarely had the termies reach CC. This is usually because the character they are guarding is viewed as such a huge threat (even if that's not really the case.)

I'm very glad to here that Dan! Keep the pack rolling.

Just as a side note: I do like the idea of Shield/Hammer for the above reasons, but would also add that they do fit into a thematic 4+ invlun based army list... which is something Wolves can do quite easily I think.

Thanks so much! I can't tell you how motivating it is to hear this from the pack! Seriously, I appreciate it. Better than the box art? Lol, I don't think so but thanks again. The 'red eyes' was definitely a risk. I felt like it showed him enraged... a calm boiling kind of rage, and maybe to some degree this is partially fueled by the axe..... I'm glad you guys think it was a good decision. Grimnar was painted in mostly one piece... I say mostly because I did the axe separate, but I hated it, and I redid it to what you see now. Oh, for clarity I did paint him off of the base though. I super glued him to a generic base, and painted him on one of those GW "painting handles". It made getting to the undersides of the pelt so much easier. He was very labour intensive. I think most of the wolves are... it's all the bling... pelts, runes, gems... well I'm sure you know the routine! Thanks. Now onto the Terminators.