The 13th Goat

Thanks for the feedback. I had a previous concept pitch on here earlier this year, but life got away from me. Can i clarify what you mean by "crude"? Any particular bit that stands out? As for the Ultramarine geneseed, it came after the Edian Incident. Initially it was Iron Hands geneseed, but the recruits for the new chapter were drawn from Ultramar. This meant a crucial part of the Medusian identity was missing, hence the conflict. I do agree that i should include more on the initial decision to do this by the Administratum, not really sure i'm gonna pursue obsession with this chapter, instead focusing on the inner turmoil the chapter experiences.

Origins A 22nd Founding chapter under the name Gorgans Exemplar, the Chapters creation was mired with considerable controversy at the time. Due to latent concerns over some of the Iron Hands handling of the Moirae Schism and potential recruitment practice concerns it raised, the High Lords elect to draw the bulk of new recruits from a series of Ultramar recruitment worlds rather from the typical Medusian stock. The new recruits would still be em-bided with Iron Hands Gene-seed, but all their prior training was done under the culture of Ultramar. Leadership positions were also filled from more moderate successor chapters, distant from the original ideals held by the proud sons of Mannus. Angry at what they considered as the meddling of Administratum in the formation of this successor, the Iron Hands and many of their successors did not treat the chapter as true sons of the Gorgon. They instead believed the chapter was created in reponse to concerns about the Moirae Schism, and an overall lack of trust the High Lords had in the Iron Hands at the time. This was seen as an affront to their honour, and would prove to be the basis for all interactions with the chapter in its early years. The Edian Incident Despite the considerable animosity held by their parent Chapter, the Gorgans were initially deployed alongside the formers Clan Morragul as part of their training cadre, in a bid to resolve the issue between the two. Unfortunately tensions would only rise between the forces; many within the Gorgons came to believe that the Iron Hands approach was too excessive and led to needless losses of Imperial life, while the Iron Hands viewed them as "drenched in the ideals of Ultramar" and lacking the ferocity of their lineage. The situation would come to a head during what would come to be known as the Edian Incident. The two forces would be called in to help repeal a Night Lord raiding party that had descended upon the agricultural world of Edian III. While the Gorgans made planetfall to put down the civil unrest and revolt common in worlds targeted by Chaos forces, the Iron Hands focused on the void war and orbital dock battles with the bulk of the Traitor Forces. Even this division of labour was contentoues, with the Captain Korav Balen of the Iron Hands openly stating during the war council he did not trust the Gorgans to face such an enemy. During the conflict, the Iron Hands would launch a devastating fussillade onto the main Orbital in a bid to eliminate the Night Lord commander who they believed was based on the station. This information was infact a lie, tricking the loyalists into obliterating the orbital and sending it crashing to the planet below to wipe out the planets second largest Hive City. In the chaos that would ensue the Night Lords slipped away, leaving the Iron Hands to face rebuke from both the Gorgans and the devastated PDF for complete disregard for Imperial life. Only last minute parlay's between the leadership of both forces averted battle between the two, but the relationship between the Gorgons leadership and the Iron Hands all but ruined. Shortly after this incident and with support from a number of their successor chapters, the Iron Council made a formal request to the High Lords that the Gorgons gene seed stock be changed, even threatening to refuse future Gene seed tithes until the matter was resolved. While less enamoured with the idea, the Gorgons ultimately agreed this to be the best course of action. With Iron Hands and their successors viewing them as pariahs, the animosity between them was damaging the morale of the young chapter and its warriors, many who were struggling to balance the ideals of their genetic heritage with their cultural one. Birth Of The Sentinals N ot wishing further conflict, the Administratum begrudgingly acquiesced to the Chapters' demands and switched the gene stock to the more suitable Ultramarine stock. The Gorgons would be moved to another sector, and take on new heraldry as the Sentinels Invictus. They would be tasked with defending the Koreth Chain, a collection of profitable trading worlds, from the nearby minor Ork Empire of Dregurk. The would also be granted a Fortress Monestary of the moon of the Chains primary world, Reinfell. This would come to be known as Iron Watch. Not all were happy with the changes now imposed on them. The Chapter itself would become a divided house, with more than a few warriors dismayed at the schism that had formed between themselves and their original founding Chapter. This issue, along with the issue of Iron Hands geneseed still in circulation within the chapter, would ultimately lead the chapter to fracture. The bulk of the chapter remained in the Koreth Chain to fufill their duty to the Emperor and protect its citizens, while a roughly 3 companies left the Chain to campaign against the Orks directly, viewing it as the Medusian way of dealing with the threat. This would ultimately inform the organisational structure of the Chapter, with the 3 Wayward Sons companies operating outside of Chapter oversight. The Fall of Iron Watch More To Come Organisation[/skullheaderhalf] More To Come [skullheaderhalf=000000'']Doctrines More To Come Geneseed More To Come Formatting is all over the shop at the moment, but will spruce it up once i get all the fluff in.

How much is that in Sterling? £6.50 ish..... :lol:

Its more likely a White Dwarf IA is out of date, mate. They have almost to the book been reteconned so far. I'd suggest being more flexible and cryptic with your history. Allows you to sculpt an IA better as their is less to fit in with general opinion.

Ok, lets take a look at this then. All uncles, no dad? Doesn't say much for Mum. On a serious note, geneseed is highly revered. Mixing would consievably be eskewd. It feels like your trying to explain why your chapter imitates the best of many first foundings, which just doesn't really gel. Mystery geneseed, I feel anyway, is fair enough. But modified (and worse, combined) should be avoided. It mostly comes off as tacky. Here is what it says in the Lexicanum about the 21st Founding: The Twenty First Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding. It took place shortly before the Age of Apostasy, in M36. The focus of the Twenty First Founding was perfecting and removing deficiencies in flawed gene-seed, and ultimately the production of a new Primarch-like being in project "Homo Sapiens Novus". The Founding itself ended when one of its projects sent a warp signal and alerted Fabius Bile to its existence. The Twenty First Founding is also known as the Cursed Founding, because of the appalling bad luck that seems to dog the Chapters created. Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival. As a result the Chapters have gradually dwindled in size as their inability to raise and induct recruits means that battle casualties cannot be replaced. By the fact we know about it means it wasn't a secret. I would always be very careful when attributing you chapter to major Imperial events. Your explaniation of things can always irk someone, and source material being like it is you could easily find your chapters fluff royally screwed if GW decide to retecon or change things. Which they do. All the time. ;) As it stand this entry feels like their trying to show horn in Fabius Bile, which shows even GW struggles with the suspension of disbelief.

Great read. Couple of points i would make: I'm sure i've heard of the Heart Of Caliban being used before, although i can't remember where. I think it was in either Decent Of Angels of one of the other Dark Angel books. Might wanna take a look at them to check. Secondly, i really dislike the colouring on the headers. Could you at least try to change the text colouring, as its almost impossable to read! Finally, its really long and really detailed. I was under the impression IA's should sit roughly around 3000 words and be a little less specific? Great job though. Lets us see what the bar is!

Careful. If PDF turned traitor then surrendered, they would be similarly executed. Like in the Dark Crusade, the Blood Ravens had to fight the IG, sparred those that survived but executed those that turned traitor and actually helped the Ravens. Disloyalty is punishable by death. Also, try to avoid the cliche that if their humane their Salamanders. Maybe someone like Sisters or someone would be better suited.

If you want to move in an ultramarine direction, go for it. I'm getting a little bored of this "The Ultras R Da Best"/"Ultras Suck" mentality that gets thrown around. (Sqinting accusingly at Oct :( ) The Ultramarines are a good chapter, and although they did recieve a dispoportinate amount in the codex, that doesn't reflect on the Chapter or the players, mearly the management in charge of the codex. Ignoring the blatant self elevating comments like "the greatest chapter" (which i've heard used in other codex's and chapters before, so i really think it was a personal opinion rather than grafted fact), the chapter have an excellently crafted fluff that is worthy of respect. I don't love the Ultras, and was annoyed when i saw the codex. But i still think their concept is cool, the whole romans in space vibe. I personally think if you switched to a more Ultra feel, it would compliment your chapter nicely. P.S: Oct, before we end up counter pointing each other, is their a place on the website that we can do this seperatly. I know previos threads have been closed, but i wouldn't mind opening a thread that only brings factual critisism to the table without it decending into chaos! :D

Yeah, its spelt Beliefs. :)

You've still spelt beliefs wrong.

Fair enough. By the sounds of it, your chapter are drifting more towards a Blood Angel Dark Angel style currently. The purity thing could work with Chaos. I might even suggest the fall of findor could be attributed to it. Try this: After a battle with Chaos, the chapeter was descimated. Many of the marines had been captured, tortured and turned on their brothers, twisted monstrosities. It was said that the mosterous clonelord Fabius Bile had even overseen some of these experiments. The Knights manage to force Chaos off the planet, but at a terrible cost. With most of their number dead, the acting Master Findor personally blamed the weakness of their geneseed for the abominations that had been turned against them. Decrying those that fell to the foul powers as weak, the chapter became obsessed with the purity of the geneseed, believing it was flaws in the Emperor's great gift that created a suseptability to the ruinous powers. Master Findor meet his end a hundred years later, leading the new Eagle Claws on a system wide crusade against a Fabius Bile support warband from the Black Legion. Just an idea. The Fabius Bile link might be to overt, and others may find it cliched, but i think while the EC embraced Bile, the Eagle Claws would rally against him, defining your chapter as a loyalist. With the Eagle thing, i tink its simply a case of where you want your chapter's name to come from. The Aquilla quote wasn't bad, and neither was the Eagle bit. You just need to stick to one source for their inspiration. Otherwise the other point seems redundant. Finally Findor himself. Even the Black Templars don't veiw Sigmund on the same level as Dorn. I would be carefull with that. More to my original point, saint hood has connotations with religion, and thats always dubious with chapters unless the faith is the crux of your chapter.

Despite the recent arguments, i feel you deserve a broader look at your IA. Gonna do a full breakdown, see if there is any points i see, but i don't have the patience for retorts and rebuttles. If you don't like my crit, fine. Lets keep this nice and productive: Couple of points: Why did Findor think it was genetic impurity that cost them the Eldar battle? As some of the others have pointed out, the marines only really joined in at the end. I also noted that they didn't get involved in the Solar system. Where were they? I was under the impression of the chapters involved fought on Terra. The honour guard bit doesn't seem relevent. Not to bring up old points, but i don't really understand this desire for perfection. I know you've been re-writing this, so i don't know if its the casualty of previos crit, but i don't think you've gone in to enough detail as to why there so puritanical. At the moment its your weakest point in the IA, so perhaps future adjustments could be made to strengthin this point. Whats the strongest bit at the end for? Again, as previously stated, this is very similar to Chemos in the first sentence. However you do go on to make it more personal. My only real gripe is its very detailed for something that isn't really terribly important to the chapter's makeup. I would lose the Eagle thing, as it sounds a like it was thrown in their to justify your name; you've already done that, noting the Aquilla. I also think your detail into the workings of the planet may be slightly to detailed for an IA. Keep in mind that unlike the Blood Angels and Ultramarines, this isn't your chapter's first homeworld. Their unlikely to form connection strong enough for it to be considered crucial to their indentity. It's also mans, not mains. Again with that strongest? I'd say this was your weakest section. The apothacarie thing is not explained adequetly, and the sentence its described in need serious grammatical adjustment to make sense. Why is the medical thing important? If its due to the earlier battle, you need to mention it. It also suffers that "better than yours" quality when you mention trained to a higher degree. Just say more focused. Its less assuming but still puts the message across. Your understanding of the codex is slightly off. It is a massive war journal, and is constantly added to by each chapter that uses it. What you mention again seems rather off and more "better than codex". The final line is a mixed bag. I'm glad that in this respect the chapter is different from teh Emperor's Children, but the last line is pointless. "The chapter boasts many fine and skilled fighters"? Their a space marine chapter. I would be more alarmed if the didn't! Why? Thats the main underlining problem with this. You have given no explanation for this structure. The apothacary thing again is presented in a BTY (Better Than Yours) manner. Beliefs spelt wrong. Most chapter operate under the belief structure you describe, so i'm unsure if its relevent. The saint-hood thing should be dropped. The Chaos lord thing should also be expanded. Again, this isn't actually original stuff. All chapters percieve the geneseed as a gift. Doesn't really add anything. The slower rate thing and the standards are ok, though. =================================================== Those are my opinions on the IA. I still think it needs a lot of work, and should not have been inducted into the Librarium in its current state (especially with how out of date their copy is). With that being said, i am not on the Librarium team, so my opinion is my own. I'm glad the Fulgrim referances have been stemed a little, but you've only just started building up a repuable take on the EC. They still need a shed load of work. You might also want to stick a picture up, so we can see what they look like.

Oct is a mod. In fact, he's in one of the team in charge of the Librarium. We've given you crit on your chapter, as is the reason for the Liber boards. Whether or not you take our advice is completely up to you. We are mearly pointing out the holes in your fluff that either break the suspension of disbelief or appear to undermine the chapter's originality. As many will tell you, playing and fluffing don't neccesarily go hand in hand. Just becuase you have a 3000 pt. army doesn't somehow mean the holes in your fluff should be ignored. Niether should other fluff you've written somehow sheild your IA from attack. I'm glad you've noticed the problems with perfection simply repeated over and over again, but their are other problems where you simply completely sync with the EC, which shows unoriginality. I agree with Oct that this should have run through the Liber before going up on the Librarium. We would have pointed this out a lot earlier. I am suprised Molotov didn't pick up on the links, but i suppose he felt the fluff was sufficently different. I personally don't, and by the sounds of it neither does Oct, GMT and M2C, So here is some suggestions: Focus more on the Ultramarine side of things. Make them strive to be like Gullimen, not perfect. Make them arrogant, sure. OR make them crave adorlation from Imperial worlds, go on parades and demand feasts in their honour. Romulus as a name is daft. Make it his first name and give him a second, like Romulus Tyrell or something. Flows better. Change the warcry. Perhaps "The Eagle of Justice has landed!" Perhaps give a reason for the name. Preferance to jump packs? Names tend to reflect style.

Well i'm pointing it out. So did Grey hunter, Tarak and Marshall. And i didn't need you to do that for me. The Doom Eagles and Blood Ravens don't look nearly as simiar as your guys. For example: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/27/Blood_Ravens.jpg http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/c6/Pre_Heresy_Thousand_Sons_Marine.jpg <Loyalist Blood Ravens and Doom Eagels Traitor Thousand Sons and Death Guard> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/60/Doom_Eagles.jpg http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/b/be/DeathGuard2.jpg There are obvious differances in the above colour schemes. Just because the Blood Ravens are secretive doesn't make them identical to the Thousand Sons. The Angels Sanguine never reveal their face in public, so their sercetive. The Dark Angels are all about the Secrets. Blood Angels distance themselves from other due to the Black Rage and Red Fury. If anything their just a secretive chapter that has close heraldry to the Blood Angels, and are little to do with the Thousand Sons. Your lads, on the other hand, are simply lifted entirely from 30k. You've not given any justification for this and unlike the Blood Ravens and Doom Eagles, they look and act identically to the Emperor's Children. You can stick all the bells and whistles on like the Age Of Aposty, but your "subtle referance" to the EC is essentially a bulldozer parked in the living room. Regardless of how close to canon you stick, this chapter are almost identical to the EC. The Guilliman referance seems almost an after thought to cover you obvious links, and it doesn't really help. What you seem to be failing to grasp is that its the colour scheme AND attitude that causes this. The Hawk Lords are not obsessed with perfection, and i'm unsure if there is even another chapter that is actually obsessed with perfection aside from the EC. I'm sorry, but i just don't think you've done this homage to Fulgrim as well as you think you have.

I've said it on other threads and i'll say it here: you need to tone down the Emperor's Children referances. When i say purple armour, gold trim and obsessed with perfection, everybody that has even looked at a space marine book would roughly know its the Emperor's Children. If it were one or the other, fine, but its BOTH the characteristics that make it feel like a one of those Madame Tussaudes wax works; greatly detailed and fantastically done, but essentially just a copy. If you toned it down it would have a chance, but at the moment it sceams Fulgrim louder than front row at a metallica concert.