Phoebus

What I'm saying is that you're more than entitled to not like Olly Piers, but that the relative absence of Ollanius Perrson from the series until Saturnine almost certainly has to do with far more serious issues than Abnett just (paraphrasing here) "dropping the ball"; that Ollanius the Pious is neither here nor there where this discussion is concerned, because the people who ultimately had the final say on whether he should have been included in his original guise or should have featured more in his Persson "evolution" during Abnett's absence ultimately opted to do neither. That last bit is the salient point for me: even if, for the sake of argument, Abnett was a toxic prima donna who just threw his toys in the bin and walked away for no good reason for 3-4 years, there were people who were/are employed by GW/BL for the express purpose of managing this series and ensuring it was of good quality and made sense. That includes having an idea of what the character arcs and plot lines look like across the narrative, even if only in broad strokes. So again, this isn't about absolution or deflection; it's about acknowledging that, unless Abnett's departure was a unilateral one and driven by avoidable problems which he caused, more than one person probably has responsibility for certain things that fans are trying to pin exclusively on the author.

The argument isn't that Kyme didn't complete any arcs. It's that Abnett was not alone in introducing elements that were left unfinished. That, frankly, is a gross oversimplification of what happened, and omits the reasons for said hiatus. Sure, assuming there had been no conflicts between him and the studio (or vice versa), or health issues, or simply a competing schedule--on whose priorities Black Library would most certainly have had a say. That, too, is an assumption. I genuinely struggle to picture someone that comes off as generally sound, and who appears to have good relations with the other authors on that creative team, essentially saying "I don't feel like doing this; you do it for me, John." What's more likely? That, or Abnett pitching an idea to editors, managers, and French alike about ... ... and them moving in concert together? But now we're getting back into subjective opinion, which you're of course completely entitled to. At the end of the day, we've known for well over a decade that The Horus Heresy was going to change things from the original material. That's a distinct matter from Abnett introducing things late on in the absence of an actual cohesive narrative, though. It's one thing to not like Olly Piers in general; it's another thing altogether to lament his inclusion in favor of Ollanius the Pious when the people responsible for said actual cohesive narrative did the square root of nothing to set that character up across 54 (?) numbered novels.

I'm talking about the Black Library and Games Workshop's editing and management team, Scribe, as I consistently have throughout this topic. When I made that reply, my impression had been that you were referencing third parties beyond them.

I mean, there is... where the understandable part is concerned... it's just not one with which you're obligated to agree.

With respect, we're going in circles now, and the salient point is that Dan Abnett does not (to my knowledge) have creative control over Black Library/Games Workshop. I have no doubt whatsoever that Dan has a great deal of creative influence, and that the studios, their editors, and managers, are happy to extend him freedom to introduce characters, concepts, plotlines, etc., but the permission they grant him cannot reasonably absolve them of their own responsibilities. You recognize that, above, but I'm not sure that this is being laid on anyone else's feet. Who else could it be laid on?

Completing the bloat is only a part of the equation, though. But even if we must be that strict about what counts for the purpose of this discussion, the Dark Angels arc not only had no closure, it barely had relevance to the main narrative--other than to provide a McGuffin, the extent of whose efficacy varied from novel to novel, according to the author's needs (rather than, if I recall correctly, any stated limitation of the artifact itself). Beyond that, I'm not trying to be combative, but I don't think it's necessary for you to make assumptions (with regard to Abnett just walking away or forcing his wants on the larger writing team) to argue your point. I'm not sure what the point of that request is. Legion and Prospero Burns were released before The Unremembered Empire and the issues DukeLeto69 references--though, to be more accurate, Abnett returned to writing for Black Library earlier than 2020's Saturnine, having already done The Warmaster (2017), The Magos (2018), and The Anarch (2019).

With respect, I think you're missing my point, Scribe--or I've done a poor job of stating it (which wouldn't be the first time). Your argument, as I understand it, is that Abnett introduced needless bloat, and failed to resolve the various plot elements it entailed. My counterargument is that "bloat" is both subjective and not exclusive to Abnett; that, regardless how we view it, the people responsible for managing the series and its narrative are also responsible for its consistency, continuity, and completion (no, I was not aiming for three c's here!). I'm completely on board with you saying "this was done poorly." I'm not sure it's fair to say (and I'm obviously paraphrasing here, but hopefully accurately and fairly) "this should have never been done," or "to the extent that this should have been done, Abnett is responsible for seeing it through." This is where subjective tastes can clash. I enjoyed most of both volume 1 and volume 2. There are certain elements I thought could have been better, ... ... but there wasn't a point where I was thinking to myself "I could have done without this, entirely."

With respect, that's a subjective opinion followed by the culmination of a larger problem that Abnett neither created nor could address on his own. I'm not trying to say your preference as a reader doesn't count, but I feel absolutely, positively safe in saying that a 3-4 volume Siege of Terra would have been met with just as much frustration by your opposites. At the risk of adding my own subjectivity in, I think a (relatively) minimalist approach to the Siege of Terra could have only worked if the Horus Heresy itself had been far more reduced in scope. It wasn't, though, and I would argue that it shouldn't have been, but rather that it should have been more cohesive and comprehensive--both in terms of what the editors and authors chose to focus on, but also in terms of the various stages supporting each other. So yes, readers are well within their rights to question the decision to introduce certain elements (we've been doing since at least Legion, where Abnett's concerned), and are just as entitled to criticize how well these are executed from start to finish... but they cannot be viewed as just an Abnett problem. If any author is allowed to introduce elements that only he ends up working on (whether do to a lack of desire on the part of other authors, or that same author being unwilling to allow others to work on them), that's just poor management/editing of the series as a whole. And again, this is an issue that we've seen throughout the Horus Heresy, whether we're talking about Thorpe and the Dark Angels, Kyme and the Salamanders, etc. Maybe? I mean that sincerely. Abnett views The End and the Death as a single novel that should be read as such. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages of stuff they don't like.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Even if the first half dozen pages or so largely hinged on kinda hyperbolic takes on Abnett's work, people have a right to like/dislike things according to their tastes. I genuinely enjoyed the pacing of The End and the Death, for example, as well as the characters Abnett used for our perspectives. If anything, I thought a couple of characters, needed more than what they were shown doing, not less--and certainly not to be shown at all. On the other hand, I completely get why this novel won't be everyone's cup of tea. With respect, I think you're missing my point, DarkChaplain. I'm not arguing that Imperium Secundus was the priority in 2013, or that it was optimally supported, or the only thing in that three-year period. I'm pointing out that, as was the case with other phases between Galaxy in Flames and The Buried Dagger, it was a priority over establishing the necessary narrative support for The Siege of Terra to either be something more than the incidents detailed in the old lore or something other than what Abnett decided on absent said narrative support.

At the risk of getting away from The End and the Death, and the subjective opinions everyone has about volumes 1 and 2 (and Abnett's writing in general, which you're all entitled to), I'm so heartened someone brought up the lack of consistent narrative support across The Horus Heresy series as a whole--because I don't think one can offer objective criticism of what is contained in The Siege of Terra (as opposed to how it's written) without taking that into account. We know, from the direct words of authors and editors alike, that Black Library (and, by extension, Games Workshop) didn't anticipate a 60+ novel series (and the multitudes of short stories, audios, etc., that were often appended to it). We also know, from the same, how they had to react to the popularity and demand of the series, and adapt the existing framework--which was very broad, and very sparse in detail--into a detailed narrative. We also know, through direct observation, that these efforts were uneven in quality and not always cohesive. While many, many plot lines were carried over across arcs, and the narrative was gradually brought to Terra itself, I don't think it can be convincingly argued that the plot as a whole was setting up anything more than the very broad strokes that the earliest material had described. And that's not on Abnett. We (the general "we," I quite liked The End and the Death--both volumes) might not like what Abnett has produced when given creative license to effectively fill in a blank space, but the salient point in all this is that he had a blank space to fill. Erda and the Long Companions are not my favorite part of these stories, but in their absence, and in the absence of the internal conflict the Emperor faces and the decisions he makes, The Siege of Terra was not set up to be anything more than a siege and a number of set-piece duels. To put it into context, the priority ten years ago was Imperium Secundus: a narrative arc which, over the better part of three years, detailed how, in the absence of reliable Warp travel, three super-geniuses--one of whom had the means to reliably and consistently overcome said Warp travel difficulties all along--would sit tight in Ultramar and assume that, in the absence of any proof to the contrary, the greater Imperium had collapsed. To be fair, that window also gave us the wonderful Scars and The Path of Heaven, but It also decided that Vengeful Spirit and a novel about Iron Hands versus dinosaurs were more important than setting up narrative support for the final arc beyond "this is where Horus went to become powerful enough to face the Emperor." By all means, rail about the pacing of the book(s), about who and what Abnett prioritized, and so on. But as to Abnett inventing new things to do the ending justice? Well, it takes two to dance, and Dan's partners had plenty of time to figure out how they wanted the steps to go. On the other hand, we may consider that, pre-Heresy, Khârn himself was a completely different person when lost to the Nails.

I will pay Lords of Silence the same compliment I did The Carrion Throne: it isn’t just a very good Warhammer 40K novel; it is a very good novel, period. When people say things like “this is really good tie-in fiction,” or “fans of [insert faction] will love this,” I read that as a back-handed compliment. Does this mean the novel in question doesn’t rate as highly as independent fiction? Does it mean it’s more worried about checking off elements important to a faction than it is about telling a good story? Meaning no disrespect to Black Library, but so much of their advertising sounds like that — and turns me off from titles they want me to buy. With that in mind... Lords is a novel that Death Guard aficionados will love, sure, but — more importantly — most sci-fi aficionados should enjoy it, as well. As others have mentioned, it has a terrific protagonist, good pacing, and Wraight delivers environments that are absolutely engrossing. Solace, the Plague Planet, Typhus’s sanctum aboard Terminus Est... these locations are written as well as Vorx himself, and provide some of the best perspectives into this universe. If Lords suffers from anything (besides minor quibbles about the often contrived ways battles are sometimes described, even by the best of the Black Library’s authors), it’s the same as with Carrion Throne: the “twist” isn’t developed much at all during the meat of the story, so its big reveal delivers less impact than you’d hope for. That said, we’re talking about a more or less secondary plot element, so “suffer” is perhaps too strong a word. Bottom line, as with most of Chris Wraight’s work, I recommend Lords of Silence without reservation.

Yeah, I understand the analogy you're trying to make, but the amount of pre-Christian British and Gallic records is small compared to, say, Roman and Hellenistic societies. Much more of the latter survived to be placed in digital archives. That, in turn, informs my thoughts about the knowledge that would have survived to M30: most of it will have been the generalized material we find the most common of modern archives, databases, stores, etc. If the Imperium of Man, circa the Great Crusade, knew of Alexander the Great, for example, they'd probably know the coffee table version of his story, since there's a lot more of that generalized material than there is serious academic material. Likewise, it's almost fitting that the Legiones Astartes have an organization based on Cromwell's New Model Army than 21st century military forces: I'm willing to bet the number of Google hits you get on 17th century English forces are far greater than actual doctrine for modern British forces.

We have complete epics available to us from almost 3,000 years ago — from eras in which illiteracy was predominant. We have a very strong understanding of how societies functioned and what cultures looked like in large parts of our world from 2,000-2,500 years ago. I don’t see a problem with people ten times that in the future having an imperfect, fragmented, often contextless understanding of things from eras whose records were preserved in remarkable completeness over the centuries that followed. A perfect example of that is the nominal organization of the Legiones Astartes, from the first Heresy book by Forge World. Here you have this war machine that possesses interstellar travel, super-men in power armour, and planet-killing weaponry... but their organizational structure is inspired by the Roman Legions and Cromwell’s New Model Army, both of which systems were considered well obsolete by the time we digitally archived them for posterity. What I would consider a problem is if references to M1-M3 sources outnumbered ones from M4-M30.

Can you recognize how broad a description that is? You’re right, we will have to agree to disagree.

Everybody has their own tastes, and it’s far from my place to say that anyone here is wrong... but man, do I disagree with a lot of the takes I read here. Look, at the end of the day, Dan Abnett is by no means perfect. That said, I think the growth in his work since the start of the Horus Heresy series (never mind since the start of the Gaunt’s Ghosts series) is evident. That includes his depictions of Astartes, which I think have only gotten stronger and more nuanced over time. Fret about “wet leopard growls” all you like: Abnett’s Vlka Fenryka were far more than the Vikings In Space trope they had mostly been before. Even his supporting cast Space Marines — chiefly, Eadwine, Krater, and Sar as heck, from Salvation’s Reach — provide a wonderful contrast against his “normal” human characters, especially where their conflicting mindsets are concerned. Likewise, I really struggle to see the “patterns” people see in Dembski-Bowden’s cast of characters. If you ask me, the only real recurring pattern in his novels involves his protagonists, and is something you should see more of in Heresy and Warhammer 40k: meaningful internal conflict that goes beyond the threat of violence the antagonists provide. Grimaldus, for example, isn’t stressing about Orks or even about Armageddon falling so much as he is about dying there, apart from what he sees as the greater conflict Helbrecht is fighting. Talos isn’t worried about some named enemy or rival; his own powers are killing him and he’s surrounded by “comrades” who don’t share the perspective that informs his own atrocities. Argel Tal struggles with the fact that the powers that rule his universe are wholly evil, but because they represent the truth of it, he is committed to carrying out their will. That’s not to say that every protagonist in a Dembski-Bowden novel shares the same kind of struggle, but then against not every one of his female supporting characters is strong, per se, or even inclined to view the lead in a favorable light.