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Phoebus

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About Phoebus

  • Birthday 05/30/1976

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  • Location
    The techno-tundras of northern Merica
  • Interests
    Warfare; traveling the far-flung realms of Holy Terra; studying historical archives; penning my own works; athletics.
  • Faction
    Luciferi Imperialis

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  1. What I'm saying is that you're more than entitled to not like Olly Piers, but that the relative absence of Ollanius Perrson from the series until Saturnine almost certainly has to do with far more serious issues than Abnett just (paraphrasing here) "dropping the ball"; that Ollanius the Pious is neither here nor there where this discussion is concerned, because the people who ultimately had the final say on whether he should have been included in his original guise or should have featured more in his Persson "evolution" during Abnett's absence ultimately opted to do neither. That last bit is the salient point for me: even if, for the sake of argument, Abnett was a toxic prima donna who just threw his toys in the bin and walked away for no good reason for 3-4 years, there were people who were/are employed by GW/BL for the express purpose of managing this series and ensuring it was of good quality and made sense. That includes having an idea of what the character arcs and plot lines look like across the narrative, even if only in broad strokes. So again, this isn't about absolution or deflection; it's about acknowledging that, unless Abnett's departure was a unilateral one and driven by avoidable problems which he caused, more than one person probably has responsibility for certain things that fans are trying to pin exclusively on the author.
  2. The argument isn't that Kyme didn't complete any arcs. It's that Abnett was not alone in introducing elements that were left unfinished. That, frankly, is a gross oversimplification of what happened, and omits the reasons for said hiatus. Sure, assuming there had been no conflicts between him and the studio (or vice versa), or health issues, or simply a competing schedule--on whose priorities Black Library would most certainly have had a say. That, too, is an assumption. I genuinely struggle to picture someone that comes off as generally sound, and who appears to have good relations with the other authors on that creative team, essentially saying "I don't feel like doing this; you do it for me, John." What's more likely? That, or Abnett pitching an idea to editors, managers, and French alike about ... ... and them moving in concert together? But now we're getting back into subjective opinion, which you're of course completely entitled to. At the end of the day, we've known for well over a decade that The Horus Heresy was going to change things from the original material. That's a distinct matter from Abnett introducing things late on in the absence of an actual cohesive narrative, though. It's one thing to not like Olly Piers in general; it's another thing altogether to lament his inclusion in favor of Ollanius the Pious when the people responsible for said actual cohesive narrative did the square root of nothing to set that character up across 54 (?) numbered novels.
  3. I'm talking about the Black Library and Games Workshop's editing and management team, Scribe, as I consistently have throughout this topic. When I made that reply, my impression had been that you were referencing third parties beyond them.
  4. I mean, there is... where the understandable part is concerned... it's just not one with which you're obligated to agree.
  5. With respect, we're going in circles now, and the salient point is that Dan Abnett does not (to my knowledge) have creative control over Black Library/Games Workshop. I have no doubt whatsoever that Dan has a great deal of creative influence, and that the studios, their editors, and managers, are happy to extend him freedom to introduce characters, concepts, plotlines, etc., but the permission they grant him cannot reasonably absolve them of their own responsibilities. You recognize that, above, but I'm not sure that this is being laid on anyone else's feet. Who else could it be laid on?
  6. Completing the bloat is only a part of the equation, though. But even if we must be that strict about what counts for the purpose of this discussion, the Dark Angels arc not only had no closure, it barely had relevance to the main narrative--other than to provide a McGuffin, the extent of whose efficacy varied from novel to novel, according to the author's needs (rather than, if I recall correctly, any stated limitation of the artifact itself). Beyond that, I'm not trying to be combative, but I don't think it's necessary for you to make assumptions (with regard to Abnett just walking away or forcing his wants on the larger writing team) to argue your point. I'm not sure what the point of that request is. Legion and Prospero Burns were released before The Unremembered Empire and the issues DukeLeto69 references--though, to be more accurate, Abnett returned to writing for Black Library earlier than 2020's Saturnine, having already done The Warmaster (2017), The Magos (2018), and The Anarch (2019).
  7. With respect, I think you're missing my point, Scribe--or I've done a poor job of stating it (which wouldn't be the first time). Your argument, as I understand it, is that Abnett introduced needless bloat, and failed to resolve the various plot elements it entailed. My counterargument is that "bloat" is both subjective and not exclusive to Abnett; that, regardless how we view it, the people responsible for managing the series and its narrative are also responsible for its consistency, continuity, and completion (no, I was not aiming for three c's here!). I'm completely on board with you saying "this was done poorly." I'm not sure it's fair to say (and I'm obviously paraphrasing here, but hopefully accurately and fairly) "this should have never been done," or "to the extent that this should have been done, Abnett is responsible for seeing it through." This is where subjective tastes can clash. I enjoyed most of both volume 1 and volume 2. There are certain elements I thought could have been better, ... ... but there wasn't a point where I was thinking to myself "I could have done without this, entirely."
  8. With respect, that's a subjective opinion followed by the culmination of a larger problem that Abnett neither created nor could address on his own. I'm not trying to say your preference as a reader doesn't count, but I feel absolutely, positively safe in saying that a 3-4 volume Siege of Terra would have been met with just as much frustration by your opposites. At the risk of adding my own subjectivity in, I think a (relatively) minimalist approach to the Siege of Terra could have only worked if the Horus Heresy itself had been far more reduced in scope. It wasn't, though, and I would argue that it shouldn't have been, but rather that it should have been more cohesive and comprehensive--both in terms of what the editors and authors chose to focus on, but also in terms of the various stages supporting each other. So yes, readers are well within their rights to question the decision to introduce certain elements (we've been doing since at least Legion, where Abnett's concerned), and are just as entitled to criticize how well these are executed from start to finish... but they cannot be viewed as just an Abnett problem. If any author is allowed to introduce elements that only he ends up working on (whether do to a lack of desire on the part of other authors, or that same author being unwilling to allow others to work on them), that's just poor management/editing of the series as a whole. And again, this is an issue that we've seen throughout the Horus Heresy, whether we're talking about Thorpe and the Dark Angels, Kyme and the Salamanders, etc. Maybe? I mean that sincerely. Abnett views The End and the Death as a single novel that should be read as such. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages of stuff they don't like.
  9. I agree wholeheartedly with this. Even if the first half dozen pages or so largely hinged on kinda hyperbolic takes on Abnett's work, people have a right to like/dislike things according to their tastes. I genuinely enjoyed the pacing of The End and the Death, for example, as well as the characters Abnett used for our perspectives. If anything, I thought a couple of characters, needed more than what they were shown doing, not less--and certainly not to be shown at all. On the other hand, I completely get why this novel won't be everyone's cup of tea. With respect, I think you're missing my point, DarkChaplain. I'm not arguing that Imperium Secundus was the priority in 2013, or that it was optimally supported, or the only thing in that three-year period. I'm pointing out that, as was the case with other phases between Galaxy in Flames and The Buried Dagger, it was a priority over establishing the necessary narrative support for The Siege of Terra to either be something more than the incidents detailed in the old lore or something other than what Abnett decided on absent said narrative support.
  10. At the risk of getting away from The End and the Death, and the subjective opinions everyone has about volumes 1 and 2 (and Abnett's writing in general, which you're all entitled to), I'm so heartened someone brought up the lack of consistent narrative support across The Horus Heresy series as a whole--because I don't think one can offer objective criticism of what is contained in The Siege of Terra (as opposed to how it's written) without taking that into account. We know, from the direct words of authors and editors alike, that Black Library (and, by extension, Games Workshop) didn't anticipate a 60+ novel series (and the multitudes of short stories, audios, etc., that were often appended to it). We also know, from the same, how they had to react to the popularity and demand of the series, and adapt the existing framework--which was very broad, and very sparse in detail--into a detailed narrative. We also know, through direct observation, that these efforts were uneven in quality and not always cohesive. While many, many plot lines were carried over across arcs, and the narrative was gradually brought to Terra itself, I don't think it can be convincingly argued that the plot as a whole was setting up anything more than the very broad strokes that the earliest material had described. And that's not on Abnett. We (the general "we," I quite liked The End and the Death--both volumes) might not like what Abnett has produced when given creative license to effectively fill in a blank space, but the salient point in all this is that he had a blank space to fill. Erda and the Long Companions are not my favorite part of these stories, but in their absence, and in the absence of the internal conflict the Emperor faces and the decisions he makes, The Siege of Terra was not set up to be anything more than a siege and a number of set-piece duels. To put it into context, the priority ten years ago was Imperium Secundus: a narrative arc which, over the better part of three years, detailed how, in the absence of reliable Warp travel, three super-geniuses--one of whom had the means to reliably and consistently overcome said Warp travel difficulties all along--would sit tight in Ultramar and assume that, in the absence of any proof to the contrary, the greater Imperium had collapsed. To be fair, that window also gave us the wonderful Scars and The Path of Heaven, but It also decided that Vengeful Spirit and a novel about Iron Hands versus dinosaurs were more important than setting up narrative support for the final arc beyond "this is where Horus went to become powerful enough to face the Emperor." By all means, rail about the pacing of the book(s), about who and what Abnett prioritized, and so on. But as to Abnett inventing new things to do the ending justice? Well, it takes two to dance, and Dan's partners had plenty of time to figure out how they wanted the steps to go. On the other hand, we may consider that, pre-Heresy, Khârn himself was a completely different person when lost to the Nails.
  11. In general, the authors distinguish void ships from gunships and other smaller vessels that they carry. Void ships are the vessels they count when describing the size of fleets, and they generally separate those by class: escorts, cruisers, and so on. Stormbirds are more represented in the first few novels, but it’s qualified almost from the beginning that they are the older pattern, and that the Thunderhawk — smaller and easier to manufacture — is becoming the more ubiquitous Legiones Astartes gunship.
  12. I meant Khayon as a narrator, as well. Where expectations of the reader are concerned, I’m by no means trying to advocate for elitist attitudes, but what Dembski-Bowden did with Khayon has been a staple of fiction for a long, long time. Here’s an example of what I’m thinking: Unless you read the Dune prequels, objectively speaking there’s no reason to assume the Harkonnens hold any moral high ground over their Atreides rivals. At the same time, it’s contingent on the reader to pick up on the second- and third-order effects of the surviving Atreides son’s quest for vengeance: it’s not Frank Herbert’s fault if I don’t pick up on the fact that justice leads to a galactic jihad, as this is both implied and outright stated in his novel. No, I don’t have the right to be aggressive or condescending with someone if they don’t recognize that the Atreides themselves are becoming something terrible in the name of “species survival”... but pointing out that this theme is reinforced throughout that series of novels isn’t, in and of itself, elitist. Bringing it back to this discussion, I feel comfortable saying that Khayon’s beliefs with regard to his cause are subjective, and that his competence — as a sorcerer, as a communicator, etc. — doesn’t change this. The Talon of Horus conveys Khayon’s truth, not the objective truth, and the war he has fought is sacred in his eyes — not everyone else’s. I by no means want to come off as looking down my nose at someone when I say this, though. I wholeheartedly agree that a story is better served by the author providing means by which to discern right and wrong: if Herbert never showed the cruelty of the Harkonnens and the malicious glee they experienced during said acts, readers would rightly wonder just why they’re supposed to root for Paul Muad’dib. But the Harkonnen’s deeds do speak for themselves, and so do Khayon’s: he’s an often unapologetic killer and a practitioner of arts whose cost in moral currency is qualified both in that novel and throughout the larger catalogue of the Black Library. We don’t have to assume that this makes the Imperium the “good guys,” but while Khayon is a protagonist in The Talon of Horus, I don’t think it’s fair to say that story presents him as a hero (again, in the “good guy” sense). Here’s a genuine question: Should both primarchs (and their legions) share that kind of self-view? Magnus is genuinely contrite, and he has his reasons for feeling that way. There’s definitely an argument to be made for Russ to be more introspective about the contradiction and hypocrisy inherent in his Rune Priests, but I don’t think it’s really in his character to feel guilty for carrying out his brother’s censure.
  13. Roughly, yes. Here are a few qualifiers: Yes, some of the vessels in that fleet were pressed into service, and were not necessarily designed with combat (or even combat support) in mind Not every vessel in that fleet was designed with shooting at other ships or a planer, first and foremost (military transports and various types of support ships come to mind) I would argue that, nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of the vessels that fall under that figure were created to serve in the primary Expedition Fleets or the Great Crusade’s secondary detachments The quotes I provided earlier, from the Siege of Terra novels, reference actual void ships. I’m not aware of them making any allusion to gunships, etc. Is there another source that indicates what you’re saying? I’d be interested to check it out!
  14. A few random thoughts: Dembski-Bowden’s characters saying “always” isn’t a reflection of his beliefs. It’s a reflection of their beliefs, and this setting is in the state that it is precisely because its primary actors are brainwashed super-soldiers, megalomaniacs, psychopaths, religious zealots, and so on. Yes, these people would have absolutist views — a good author should convey this. Re: good and evil in the 31st Millennium: Having read this, consider the Afterword in John French’s Slaves to Darkness. The Emperor isn’t cruel, evil, or inhuman in the dictionary sense. His morality is on the macro scale. He doesn’t not care about individual people so much as he recognizes the existential threat the collective species’ actions, emotions, and psychic resonance pose to it. He sacrifices the liberty and well-being of countless billions of human beings, but it’s not because he’s indifferent to the suffering inherent in his Imperium; it’s because the alternative is the nightmares of the Age of Strife. It’s not a case of whether the Emperor is the good guy and Chaos is the bad guy, then. It’s a matter of Chaos inevitably skewing toward violent extremes, which — when given the opportunity — intrude on the material universe with catastrophic results. The Cabal propose an alternative in the extinction of the human race, but as readers who have some insight into the workings of this universe, we know that’s utter nonsense. Chaos isn’t coded to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Human beings could go away, but the underlying cosmic mechanic wherein what sentient creatures do, feel, and think feeds destructive godlike forces wouldn’t. Slaanesh existed and didn’t exist before M29, but it was the Eldar hitting maximum levels of cruelty and decadence that led to it becoming what we know it as. Anyways, what is my least favorite Horus Heresy novel? It’s probably a toss-up between Descent of Angels and The Damnation of Pythos. I tried to check my subjective tastes in writing when deciding, and really what it came down to is what novel did the least to contribute to the chronicle of Horus’s rebellion against the Emperor of Mankind. At best, Descent initiates a conflict internal to a legion that played a peripheral part in this war. At best, Damnation serves as a prequel to a plot device from a later novel. I won’t even get into the good and the bad where writing, pacing, characters, etc., are concerned. They just contributed so little to the epic itself.
  15. I don’t think Kandawire acting out of ignorance makes the story any stronger or more plausible. Beyond that, I know it sounds a little contradictory, but I actually rather enjoyed Valdor and what it proposed. I just didn’t think Kandawire was a strong premise for it.
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