RapatoR

On an unrelated note, I love how the BL units with unmarked icons autopass Combat Attrition Tests.

Just to be clear, I am extremely happy about the codex. My struggle is in seeing a standpoint from which these restrictions are better solution than a bitz store or weapon packs.

This, so much this. A lot of restrictions in this (and other) codexes wouldn't be necessary if GW had "bitz store" or sold weapon packs.

My bad for being unclear, I meant "bare bones" 5-man squads in addition to other, kitted-out squads. I am expecting there will be additional actions in our codex so I was thinking about fielding some unit(s) purely to be "action-doers". I have seen some of you suggested to add some equipment anyway, but wouldn't that be wasted when they have to run around and do actions?

How do you guys see a prospect of a "bare-bones" 5-man units that would just run around and do actions? Would you field one? Two? None?

Welp, now I am starting to feel like a power gamer for having 80+ basic marines and 6 rhinos.

I think that disease that plagued Midgardia was made by Mortarion by the request of Magnus so it seems there is at least one instance of them working together.

Ok I am politely going to ask usual suspects to step out of the discussion. At this point, significant chunk of the posts are few users reinstating the same opinions over and over, and it is becoming repetive a frankly quite borig.

Not for all of us. I am stoked about VDR and missions. In fact me and my gaming group have yet to play a game using points.

I just want to reiterate that I don't think non-chaos renegade marines should have a codex. However I think there should be should be something for less "chaotic" marines in style of GS codex where you would be able to take loyalist stuff for every X units you have. Also I am not making the case CSM should be without chaos. I just think there is MUCH more to chaos marines than chaos. I pointed to some cases, but I will add despoiler squads to that pile (which dissapeared from the newest codex, IMO because of lack of suitable models).

That is very insightful post, thank you. It just confirms my belief that there should two codexes - first for fully fledged CSM and second for some kind of Genestealer-style codex for the "less chaotic CSM". I personally think that CMS should be both of the worlds - a bit of chaos and bit of (more loosely organized) Space Marines. I take (old) raptor models as a perfect example - their origin was throwback to the "old" days, with just the right amount of "chaosiness" mixed in. I would love the same thing being done for say jetbikes or landspeeders. What I personally find odd is that there seems to be constant movement of goalposts on where the differences between CSM and LSM are/should be. The Loyalist should be more rigidly organized and not so flexible as CSM. That was until the chapter tactics became a thing and suddenly loyalists have more variability. They are supposed to not to tinker with established STC patterns, while CSM should have no such restrains. But when the new variants of the Land Raider appeared, it is for loyalists, while CSM ride in a same old thing. The codex dictates loyalists are not supposed to have many flyers, while CSM are not restricted by it. That is until flyers became a thing, where loyalists get a whole load of them while CSM get one. Obliterators - centurions. Possessed - wulfen. 'nuff said. Loyalist should have newer stuff, while CSM are supposed to have older stuff, while l. Until the Horus Heresy started being a thing, and suddenly the loyalist get access to more HH stuff than CSM do. However I understand that this gripe of mine ultimately boils down to two things. Lack of updated models - I think this is most prominent and self-explanatory problem of "undivided" CSM. There are no hand-held multi-meltas, plasma cannons etc., because there are no chaos infantry sprues with them. Look no further than to out-of-the-blue meltabomb disappearance from the codex, to see that this has less to do with lore (i mean the CMS use meltabombs in Dark Imperum), design choices (I mean they had them since forever), and more with "well they don't have it on any of their kits..." The problem with this is of course that, there is no "undivided" CSM update on the horizon so I fear they will be stuck in this limbo for some time. Of course there is also tabletop representation - which is limited by need for balance, distinctive feel of faction and design of the game. For example, you can't have endless variability in CSM because you don't want to break the game, and want to have a certain feel of the entire faction; the characters are supposed to be in the thick of the fighting so this means no heavy weapon-toting heroes like Lheorvine; no "middlemen" between Lord and Aspiring Champions (though now the Exalted Champion fills that role) etc.

Its not so much skewed, as meant to be played with lot of terrain. I am not sure if it was stated by GW directly, but it was certainly stated by playtesters at FLG.

Use more terrain. 8th is not meant to be played on the tables with lots of open lines of fire.

It would be nice to see GW use the Chapter Approved books to adjust points and even rules / options. We all know the lack of wargear options for not only the LoC, but Plague Marine Champion, Blightlord Champion, and the various independent characters is severely disappointing. Well I am 100 percent sure the CA will change the points, as it was stated on FLG podcast and by GW itself. Apparently they will even adjust the points for FW. I am not sure on the rules though. But given how they adjusted some of the rules in the new Codices and in FAQs, it is certainly a possibility.

Thanks for the answer. I was not sure if I was the one who got the timeline mixed up. :)