N1SB

Once again I think you crystalised the issue, Brother Brofist. This IS a good tier list, as I said before...but it's ONLY tiers of Inductii compared to each other, not to other things like Tactical Squads. To compare, I reckon if TacSquads were to be put on this list, they'd be the equivalent of S-tier, to Brother Brofist's point. I thought about that on a quick re-watch of just the S-tier Inductii. There IS a common through-line with the S-tier Inductii mentioned here: they're NOT alternatives to TacSquads, they're alternatives to other Auxiliary units, but in the Troops slot AND cheap. The Space Wolves are like an alternate Assault Squad. The Night Lords a melee version of Precision Seekers. The Iron Hands may be alternate Destroyers. Even the Ultramarines Inductii that I liked are an alternate Special Weapons squad. Thankfully, with how Allied Detachments work in HH 3.0, that may make Inductii easy to include and a fun way to play them. Like I got some points over, don't want to waste an Auxiliary Detachment on something, I can totally see my tacking on an Inductii Squad as an alternative. But as my meta likes to say, TacSquads aren't always the right option, but they're always "not wrong*". * in (I think) all dialects of Chinese, "not wrong" means everything from "not wrong" to "not bad" to "really good".

I had missed how Iron Hands Inductii can have Phosphex, then they reminded me I can apply Spite of the Gorgon (to toss 2 in Overwatch). Plink plink FWOOOOOSH. I don't know and I don't feel THAT strongly about it, but they may have underestimated the Ultramarines Inductii, who could bring 2 meltaguns and a combi-melta. Our meta is in a place where we're questioning whether to go for these over a regular Tactical Squad.

The best part isn't the Titus miniature, it's that Wade Pryce looks well. He had been working through health issues and I just realised that's why he had this, I think Brother ADB put it best, "elegant pallor of consumption" (like the Blood Angel Zephon). The former Product Manager in me really likes this, because I meet these young newcomers in the Warhammer Store and this is how they conceptualise information, like in Wikia article format. It may not be for you and me, but a lot of players would find this useful...and it'd be a GREAT gift for friends who are Warhammer-curious.

I was told by Andy Chambers what Rick Priestley told him, "It never pays to tie up loose ends." These were the original designers of 40k, from the lore to the game. I was going to say everything EXCEPT the miniatures...except I remember the Ork Warlord Ghazghkull Thraka, mentioned above, WAS Andy Chambers's, he was a conversion he made for a White Dwarf as a sample character, it was the Warboss of his own 2,000 pts list. So I'm listening to everyone, not just the ones quoted above, and what they said is so true. Not saying this is universally the case for other games or a D&D campaign setting, but true of 40k. 40k was designed by those guys with that philosophy in mind. The grim darkness of the far future was partly caused by this thick fog of war. Don't have anything to add. It's like it's not about a specific change in the lore, but the nature of the lore itself, that it should have remained ambiguous.

The Ultramarines Inductii, with their 2 Special Weapons and 1 Combi-weapon, is the one our meta is most interested in, I think. It's basically 3 Meltaguns you can maybe Drop Pod in, blow up a Vindicator, but 7 ablative Wounds that are Line (1), for cheap. Or any permutation, maybe 3 Flamers just to Overwatch to maybe apply Panic or something. High utility. Reminds me of a short story where Roboute Guilliman calls Aeonid Thiel, who made red helmets cool, to his office and he's like, "Tell me again, you're taking what, a 10-man squad? And 2 Heavy Weapons was it? Oh 2 Special Weapons are working out in the field, to burn through bulkheads." Thiel's trying to read what his Primarch's writing, like upside down. He's working on the original draft of the Codex Astartes, like you guys said.

He is, and once more, Brother Badger explained something better than I ever could. It's perfect. Ya, he's referring to the beginning of the Chinese epic of the Three Kingdoms. The Three Brothers are, in fact, NOT brothers at all, but the main 3 protags. They make an oath in a peach grove to quell a rebellion, swearing that, while their family names are different, they are brothers, and though they are of different ages, they vow to die on the same day (i.e. together on the battlefield). As soon as Brother Badger said "3 brothers" my mind immediately invoked that image. And this 3K story is strangely related to 30k... ...it's exactly if I were to say to you, Brother Gorgoff, "Loken with the Mournival at the ruined garden." Brother Badger, , 好！ Even in the end of The End and the Death, Loken refers to the oath he had taken in the very 1st novel. It's like that. If you ever watched Star Trek the Next Generation, it's that episode where Picard establishes diplomatic relations with xenos who only speak in idioms and proverbs. Darmok! His arms wide open! Under the sunlight! Welcome to this place, I'll show you everything! I know I totally screwed that quote up, but that's what it FEELS like. My brothers here, their Chinese dialect is Cantonese, but the language is Warhammer. An example. A few weeks back, an Ultramarine player and a Black Templar player were ribbing each other...in good fun, you know how we do...about whose Chapter was the truer Space Marine, the Codex Astartes vs the Eternal Crusade, who really ended the Horus Heresy. The Ultramarine player was winning the argument by pointing at the 40k Marine shelves, look at how his Primarch brought everyone Primaris with fancy new standardised power armours while the Black Templars look like a mishmash of Marks. It was the time the Scouring Preview had just come out: https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/8tc8lyjz/the-big-summer-preview-an-epic-new-series-from-black-library/ The Black Templar player jiujitsu'd the Ultramarine's point by pointing to that picture of Dorn and Guilliman's, "Yes, my Primarch's armour, full of holes. Your Primarch's armour, SO CLEAN." You see his point, like who really was fighting to save the Imperium in the Siege of Terra and have the scars to prove it, like do you really want to compare our armours, Brother Smartypants!? It was hilarious, oh man, you had to be there. The flaws you all see in HH 3.0 are the same ones we do...but I got all these 1-liners to distract me. "Guilliman's armour, SO CLEAN," oh man it's even funnier in Cantonese.

I've had time to organise my thoughts, and I just want to check if my understanding is correct please! +++ The Emperor's Children Adoption Program +++ My meta's really been playing HH 3.0 a lot and I've noticed these trends: TacSquads really are the Go To: cheap, AP3 is expensive and, importantly, Line to score All TacSquads are really expected to do is sit on Objectives to score; this edition is less kill-y Statuses really are a key mechanic, not just a gimmick: Statuses can effect scoring The Traitor Emperor's Children Stupefied is just optimised for a TacSquad's purpose. Like if I was playing a Traitor Allegiance army, with the way Force Organisation Charts work now, is the following correct to take them? An Allied Detachment cannot be over 50% of your points If I just take Troops...like EC TacSquads...I don't even need to pay a HQ Tax I guess it's obvious, but it's like I can play any Traitor army, and just adopt EC TacSquads as long as their total doesn't exceed 50%? Other Legions can't join them, but it's like your Objective Securing units will just be these guys. They should have their own acronym, TecSquads, Traitor Emperor's Children Squads. Why am I even posting? Tbh, I guess it just seems too good to be true. Like I'm seeing a Night Lords army or even True Mechanicum army, he's got their fancy units, but his only Troops are all Emperor's Children? There's not even an HQ accompanying them, is this not only correct, but quite optimal?

Every weekend or so I visit the Warhammer Store, there's at least 1 game, sometimes 2, of ppl trying HH 3.0. There ARE factors: Our guys didn't play HH 1.0 or 2.0. Only I had played HH 1.0 before They all started post 8th ed 40k, and have been feeling burned out. They'll go back to it, it's just 40k burnout They're okay with the clunkiness of the rules, because all GW games are clunky. Tbh, if I weren't used to 40k from 3rd ed to 7th, HH 1.0 would've been a total nightmare. They don't have that editionmentia (not making fun of dementia because it's no joke, but this is what I suffer from, I get confused with old editions). There's 1 thing more. All the guys getting into HH 3.0 are Chinese. They utterly respect the lore, but conceptualise things quite differently. They frame 30k in the same way they'd think of Romance of the Three Kingdoms rather than something by Homer or Tolkien or something. It's fascinating.

I think ever since 8th ed's shift, everything can kill everything mentality, I think nothing should be verboten now. I do hear what Brother Eye is saying, like for example Imperial/Chaos Knights are inherently skewed by design. Still, I'm okay with it, as I've had this idea: sometimes I think of an army (including mine) as NPCs. What you're describing, Brother Eye, is where every army is balanced as a Player Versus Player game. But having made Narrative lists surrounding like all Nurglings as Troops in 8th and Triple C'tan, which are very skewed, my own meta, my friends, actually ask to play against them. They know it's NOT a normal game...that's the attraction. The comparison I make is imagine a multiplayer video game. Normally it's PvP. However, that game has extra, BONUS game modes, like a Horde Mode (against said Nurglings) or a Boss Fight Mode (like the above Triple C'tan). There IS a condition: people in the meta get that's what those armies are. Sometimes when I play such armies, I think of myself as a Game Master for a RPG, like D&D, players fighting a giant monster. They say you need your opponent's consent, but it's beyond that, it's like your meta's consensus. It's a shared understanding. It is not unique even with Games Workshop games. I would point to Blood Bowl. It's supposed to be a sport, which are usually regulated, balanced, referee'd, for fairness. Anyone who's played it knows it's hilariously not, like anyone who plays a Halfling Blood Bowl team is the real hero. That works because everyone gets it. I think because 40k has become increasingly tournament focused with frequent Balance Dataslates that this might look out of place now. And thus, I think this discussion is meaningful. We're creating that recognition now. The Guardsmen fixing bayonets to charge a Chaos Knight Titan that Brother Eye described, they're the equivalent of the Halfling Blood Bowl team, and thus the real heroes. Honour the charge they made.

Oh, I think you're right, that explains that. Can't gimmick that, thanks for clarification.

So when you Ally, you can have an Ally HQ join (Traitor) Emperor's Children, with a -1 Leadership. Just checking the following pls: But with Stupefy, that doesn't matter at all, does it? Assuming you save Reaction Points for when you're being Charged at?

Brother Reinhard, it's actually really good you raised this point and you did so well. Because looking back, that nerd rage has been incorporated into the lore exactly as like the Brother Penitent said...but it's like such a meta-joke. You said fan fiction, it was fiction ABOUT the fandom's reaction. To their credit, the Black Library writers incorporated it well, like there was prejudice against the Greyshields and there was this early Primaris Dark Angel Interrogator Chaplain that just had a nervous breakdown because his heavy indoctrination couldn't even accept the concept of the Fallen. But it's a reminder of what 40k is. Put another way, would it be grimdark if there wasn't Primaris Derangement Syndrome? In fact...the Imperium might be one giant Derangement Syndrome, about everything. It's the only thing holding it together. And that leads to another really great point: I bring good news that support you idea. You don't have to change a thing. What you described has been an ongoing theme from even the start of the Horus Heresy novels with Horus Rising, but it was mid-Siege of Terra with Saturnine where it ramps up. Turns out throughout the millennia, the Emperor had these friends around him who gradually thought he was going too far and were trying to intervene. They were all immortal (not invincible, but didn't age) Perpetuals like him: Ollanius Persson, Erda and, at the end, even Malcador, who all questioned "The Great Work". In short, what you suggested isn't even an alternate timeline. It IS this timeline. It's not just the traitors that are tragic figures, the loyalists were, too. Everyone is. The Emperor still made a sacrifice. It's also karmic justice, maybe even fate. That's all THIS timeline. But perhaps a word you guys understand better than me would fit: this is the Emperor's penance. Also a really good thing you mentioned that, as I finished the Horus Heresy series and am re-reading Horus Rising again. An old man is talking to a Marine, the very one who was there when Horus killed the Emperor...BOTH times, "You could have left us alone." His simple statement is sinister with your question in mind. The most grimdark scenario might not be what we have now, where the Emperor tried, and failed, so everything sucks. The most grimdark scenario might be if he had succeeded, and everything still sucks...because none of it even mattered. The Emperor, the Legions, the Primarchs could have left everything alone, and it'd have turned out about the same, maybe. But your point rings true to me at least. Because if Marines didn't exist...which I personally estimate to be half of Games Workshop's business now...GONE, then likely GW wouldn't exist, probably Warhammer in general would have been discontinued...ergo, there would not even be 40k anymore. I think you're certainly right in that regard. Edit - I just remembered the quote, "The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed." That's THIS. I understand it now. All of it. +++++ Brother Kaede, just to make sure you caught this, your ideas are good, you don't even need to consider an alternate timeline. This one works JUST fine, if anything, your ideas might capture the original concept of 40k better than the current direction.

My friend Timperial Guard came back with a lot of souvenirs. Like a Bugman's whiskey flask, rare miniatures, etc. So in case you haven't already planned it, leave enough luggage space for your haul home. Also a budget for it!

Brilliant. I had considered Rapturous Sensation Dominion just to give them a bit more Movement, a minor buff but one that'll help them the most, but I hadn't even thought about the Mechanicum Heterodox Cybertheurgist. That even provides the Narrative idea of a Heretech taking the youngest, newest Dominion thinking they're the most malleable/manipulatable empyreal force to experiment with. +++++ Totally different topic, going back to the Militias PDF, one of my local friends pointed out the Heavy Rocket Bombard with the Heavy Ordnance Battery, then I recently saw some YouTube video come up on my feed talking about it. Basically big 7" pie plates of Suppression. Any thoughts about that pls? Pretty cheap before HQ tax.

I was re-reading the Horus Heresy novels. Found something relevant to your interests in Master of Mankind by our Frater, ADB. It's a conversation between a Blood Angel, Zephon, and a Techpriest, Arkhan Land (of Land's Raider, Land's Speeder, etc.) I'll share the dialogue verbatim. Arkhan Land starts: Land is referring to Sanguinius and his legion genetically looking like Renaissance paintings of angels or something. From a Techpriest perspective, it's like, how does that even happen? Did the Emperor and his geneticists, like Astarte and Sedayne and Erda, inject a handsome gene into their DNA? Now Land had JUST praised Zephon for his beauty...then immediately made it clear he was NOT romantically interested or anything. He wasn't focusing on the angelic winged aspect, just why would anyone go out of their way to make genetic supersoldiers in power armour, with helmets covering their faces, so good-looking. He added that ending remark, "not very secular," in the same way I might follow a question with, "...I'm just asking for research purposes/a friend." Zephon's reaction even before his response was particularly interesting: Land had been commenting on Zephon's dashing good looks, but the Blood Angel was thinking about the angelic aspect, because it's from his past experiences talking to people. But if he's had these past experiences talking to people, then the idea of angels must have been a common thing, even BEFORE the Ecclesiarchy made things like bionic cupids a thing. Even as they were imposing the Imperial Truth, stomping out religion...people knew of common religious icons, probably stemming from their shared culture on Terra. Then Zephon said: So Warhammer Fantasy is like the Holy Roman Empire (which was more German, Italian or Burgundy than Holy, Roman or indeed an Empire), but the fact that Zephon had talked to other people "on many occasions before" meant people at least knew about these "religious similarities". So people at least knew about the religious imagery that the Blood Angel(s) resembled, to the point that they would ask, did the Emperor deliberately model Sanguinius and his legion after that likeness. +++++ In short, YOUR idea of Space Marines resembling Christian angels was indeed a thing IN-UNIVERSE, intradiegeticly. People in the Imperium had clearly thought about the Emperor did it deliberately with the Blood Angels. Some actually had come up to one of them stationed on Earth, Zephon, to ask him awkwardly if this was the case, because his reaction suggests this type of discussion came up all the time. Whether the Emperor, whose story kinda echoes a number of those found in the Bible, but as different characters (son of Abel, someone who toppled the Tower of Babel) was just using those myths to his own ends or is actually part of them...it can be Either OR, it can be And Also...not that unreasonable. Whatever the case may be, leave it open-ended. Those Marines may believe they have a connection to this Old Earth religion. The societies they come from and protect may also believe it. But is fact? Who knows, it's 40k, it doesn't even matter if it's true, just as there are No Wolves On Fenris.