N1SB

Since I agree with everything said, just wanted to say I love the idea of using these old relics from the Great Crusade to signify these "Orphans of War" (I think that's the term for Loyalist elements from the Traitor Legions,) like they had been deployed far away with outdated gear when Horus/Erebus turned their Legions, and are being recalled back to an Imperium they no longer recognise. Or just having Legions used their old Saturnine gear in their pre-Primarch colours in general, like they had it mothballed way back, but now with depleting resources, they're dusting off the old equipment to throw into the fray. Brother Uprising, now you got me thinking about it, too!

So with you. Literally waiting for it to finalise my own list. Only thing that holds me back is we shouldn't rush them, they don't react well with rushed timelines. I'd rather they take their time and get it right instead of rushing it out with a Day 1 FAQ that causes more confusion after. 'Cos I was reading the Challenge rules and I don't think I understand them.

I totally know what you mean, I've been going through this, and I know it's time consuming, so I really appreciate your testing this and sharing your findings. When it works, like right HERE, it's amazing. I look forward to when Battle Reports start using this somehow or whatever. You're really pushing the enveloping flames here.

Actually, anyone still playing Total War:hammer III or Space Marine II, pls share your thoughts. What I noticed was Helldivers II was really popular, then suddenly disappeared. Dunno what's up.

Keeping the original post "Just the Facts," I get to talk about fun stuff now! At this point, no one can deny the success of Space Marine II. Let's talk about the Warhammer license. +++ What is the Warhammer license worth +++ There's this Ridley Scott film where, during the Crusades, Legolas asks, "What is Jerusalem worth?" "Nothing!" replied Saladin before he strolled off. Then he turned around, adding, "Everything." So what is the Warhammer license worth? I'm sharing only what was reported, but this leaked sales data: This chart shows actual sales number from Sega...yes, THAT Sega (to this day, I think the Dreamcast was the console that was most ahead of its time, even though I didn't own one). It WAS part of a presentation for investors behind closed doors back in March, their Financial Year end, and then posted online. Whoever posted it was SUPPOSED to [REDACT] this bit like an Inquisitorial Acolyte, but they must've forgotten, and people copied it before they did. What a story it tells. It's in thousand units (so Sonic Frontiers sold 3 million in its 1st year), how does it compare? 1 million in its 1st year is what Total War: Warhammer III sold. It's its own franchise now On par with even other famous Sega properties, like Yakuza, Shin Megami Tensei, Persona 3 million is like a popular Sonic game. I respect Sonic and my friends who owned a Megadrive 5 million in its 1st year is a halo game, literally like Halo. Ppl buy a console JUST for that game Like during Xbox/Playstation wars, a lot of popular exclusive titles only hit 5 mil Street Fighter 6, released 2 years ago, only reached 5 million a few back 7 million is what Space Marine II sold so far, its royalties included in GW's annual report 10+ million (like teens million) is a Skyrim. That's when you don't see a friend for months Once a game reaches that, they start doing remakes, remasters, VR, the count gets inflated Nintendo is crazy successful, they can sell 30 to 70 million copies of Pokemon: Anything For us, Total War: Warhammer III sold about 1 million, and the story is we have these other Sega games to direct compare to. In terms of sheer popularity, it stands toe-to-toe with Sega's own IP: Yakuza, Shin Megami Tensei (like Cyberpunk, but with Chaos), Persona (this is what all them kids cosplay as, when you hear your kids dressing up as Joker and he suddenly looks like a Japanese schoolboy instead of the Clown Prince of Crime, it's THIS game). It's very much of Sega's adopted family, just as GW has adopted it, I think; GW's 1st major jump in Licensing Revenue was when the 1st Total War:hammer launched. What's most interesting is AFTER the initial launch. Other games drop off. Warhammer games seem to Hold the Line. Most of these other games had remakes by the 4th year, when you see a bump in like a Persona game, it's because they made a remake. Total War:hammer III still holds out by itself. I know it has had many DLCs and wotnot to sustain it, but it's almost like a horse-cart issue; it got those DLCs because they found people still bought the game, that it's worth developing a new DLC for. That longevity is very interesting...maybe Warhammer players are used to looong projects. I'm still working on a Horus Heresy army that I bought stuff for LAST edition. I did a 10th ed army, but y'know. Now, I was thinking, "Well, it's a Total War game," like any Civilization/4X game has a long playtime...but no. At the bottom you see Total War: Three Kingdoms. Still follows the formula, very, very deep gameplay because I had friends asking me about Chinese history (my father and I debate on whether we count as a faction, 南蛮/Nanman, the Southern Vermin, but he says no.) Look at the drop-off; after 4 years, it's like only 10% of initial sales. Three Kingdoms is the ultimate IP, too. So what is the Warhammer license worth? I had previously estimated GW received about 5% of a game's gross, so for a US$60 game, GW would take $3. To compare, a retailer where that game is sold would take $10, Microsoft or Sony would take $10 for licensing it on their Xbox or Playstation. I don't know if that's true, I just remembered doing some back-of-napkins maths during the half-year report. There might be an upfront fee, I don't want to interfere with GW's Licensing team, I dunno anything. But what I do find interesting is the longevity of a Warhammer game, to attach DLCs, for future sales. It's part of how investors don't want Spikes & Valleys, they want a Steady Line Up, the Warhammer license is steadier.

Brother, you truly embody the aspect of Fulgrim where, in pursuit of perfection, you elevate others to their absolute best so you have a worthy matchup to test yourself. I forgot how different army list building is this edition and am still stuck in the old frameworks. Well, we'll double-check when the Legacies PDF drops, but this makes so much sense. What you suggested solves so many other problems for me. You know how in all our metas, it'll end up with some games of Loyalists vs. Loyalists, which is harder to narratively justify than Traitors vs. Traitors? Loyalist Emperor's Children, with Loyalist Iron Hands standing up for them, justifies every battle.

I have an answer that incorporates almost everyone's here. I'll focus on their homeworld, Medusa IV. The Iron Hands' homeworld of Medusa IV has a theme that, by its nature, incorporates many themes. +++ Medusa IV is a RPG world +++ By a RPG world, I do mean like some Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting or MMO setting. Medusa IV has Storm Giants and Metallic Dragons, typical of any RPG Monster Manual. In fact, the original popularised D&D setting is Greyhawk (not Forgotten Realms, like the recent quite enjoyable movie), there were sci-fi elements, the most famous of which was an adventure module that turns out to be a spaceship. As any RPG setting, it incorporates many cultural themes. So OF COURSE there's going to be some European Medieval Knight-equivalent who insists on using a Katana or Tetsubo, because some player who just watched an anime is willing to take Feat: Exotic Weaponry for it. It makes perfect sense in that context. Yes, we can say that about any 40k world, but Medusa IV just seems defined by, say, Silver Wyrms... ...which brings us to the (player) character of Ferrus Manus himself. +++ Ferrus Manus is the most typical RPG/MMO player character +++ Ferrus Manus and I think Vulkan were the only Primarchs not to have even tried to conquer their worlds. Ferrus Manus just went around killing monsters, basically like an adventurer doing quests. It's like a guy in a RPG, he has the sheer physical power and loyalty of all the people he helped to create his own empire...but he just wants to power level his build to kill monsters, to earn XP to level more and kill more monsters. He didn't even have a name, he's only called that from fighting the Silver Wyrm Asirnoth, and how did he do it? His weapons couldn't hurt it (that's Damage Resistance to all Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning/Physical weapons), so he wrapped his hands around it then drowned it in lava. That's such typical player behaviour: "I hit it with my axe." "It does 0 damage." "But I got 18/00 Strength and rolled a Crit! That's got to do something." "Sorry, out-of-character info, the book says Damage Resistance to all Physical damage." "Then I'm going to Grapple it." "Okay...Strength check...Asirnoth's Grappled by the neck, but that doesn't do damage." "I drown it in the lava." "...you drown it in the lava? You know that means you're shoving your ha..." "I DROWN IT IN THE LAVA." If you've played tabletop RPGs long enough, you've seen or done something like this yourself. +++ Even Ferrus's nickname suggests this +++ Ferrus Manus was nicknamed "The Gorgon" by his best friend, brother and fellow Primarch, Fulgrim. Like in Greek mythology, the Gorgons were 3 monstrous sisters, with Medusa being the most famous one. Btw, back then, they weren't that snakey, just had the Stoney Gaze and sometimes wings, but over time Medusa in particular got upgraded with all sorts of snake motifs and her lower half being all serpentine. Did it ever strike you as interesting that Fulgrim, who in his daemonic form resembles much more like Medusa's depiction than Ferrus does? In D&D specifically, however, a Gorgon is a monstrous bull with metallic skin: I leave you with this. The best part of this is any counter-point that can be made, like "no, no, Medusa is actually this or that," my response would be, "yes." Because every RPG ends up incorporating every other culture over time in some splatbook, including the inevitable Cthulhu Mythos expansion.

Success needs no explanation, failure allows for none, so please treat my Original Post as my Full Report. I read everything you say, and it's a huge benefit because we are many minds, like Cawl Inferior but Superior. (I reserve the right to reply to all your points, they're all great, and to speculate on fun stuff, as Replies here.) And if I'm playing Space Marine II, I'm not painting. Unlike Inquisitor: Martyr, where I'll play 40 mins, then paint. So even as I described the Space Marine II bump, I totally agree with you and was thinking about that. Plus, both of us know friends who might've been playing that video game instead of 10th ed! I was playing weekly early 10th ed as part of the Crusade campaign, it was Pariah Nexus and I was Necrons. Then at some point I stopped getting games in because no one bothered, it was around the end of the Crusade campaign AND when Space Marine II came out. It's new players joining, lapsed players returning AND current players dropping out, which makes the bump very impressive. The current CEO impressed me by introducing the concept of lapsed Hobbyists, exactly as you say, so I love your point. I also loved the point Brother Skyler Boodie made, but what I do NOT love... +++ I remembered something about Tariffs +++ I added a section to the Original Post. I want to keep it as "Just the Facts," just translating financial jargon really. A Tariff, which is worse than a Sales Tax because it's paid right at the start, can ripple out of the country of origin. The way it happens to be accounted for would directly a Pricing Update that actually would go worldwide. I'm so depressed, I'm going to finish reading my paperback copy of End & Death II oh like that'll cheer me up.

That sounds exactly right, is about the right sum for that. You reminded me why companies like China. An American businessman was thinking of off-shoring manufacturing to China. He doesn't know the language, labour laws, but he gets a translator, just works at it, finds a local factory, discuss terms, etc. Talks to some local government officials at the end of the process, gets wined & dined. The American businessman remembers about worker insurance, "What if a Chinese worker gets hurt? Any insurance?" The translator translates, the official very excitedly replies, the American businessman asks, "So what did he say?" She replies, "If any Chinese worker gets hurt, the official will insure you will get a replacement worker IMMEDIATELY." And if the problem is bats, you don't have to worry about killing the bats or not. Those bats will magically disappear IMMEDIATELY.

Our meta is thinking of doing 1,000 point games using secondary characters like Sigismund or Corswain, etc. So any Legion or special Terminator, etc., would benefit most in 1,000 point games please? Not asking to make an Win At All Costs army, but more like I want to know the lay of the land. I absolutely believe that certain Legion Tactics scale up better than others. Like people aren't taking a Lord of War. Would the answer be just Imperial Knights, for example? What I found from HH 1.0, when we actually played a game using 200 pts Kill Team rules (very compatible at the time), was Iron Hands had a substantial advantage in that special scenario. Their reducing enemy ranged weapons' Strength made Bolter fire much weaker. Not thinking of doing that, but it showed me that different Legions are optimal at certain point ranges.

Brother Kraskor, good catch, truly Fulgrim was the best friend of Ferrus. I completely forgot about him...hmmm. I might go Emperor's Children instead of Iron Hands for this reason alone. Wow. Loyalist Emperor's Children. I must amend my original post, thanks for this.

What a difference 2 weeks make. Above I lamented painting black power armour and Fury of the Ancients. Having actually seen the rules in full, I'm returning to Iron Hands for their slight advantage for Dreadnoughts. Even to the point of imagining a new painting technique, it'll be black armour illuminated by red, like a glowfrom within their suits (like how the inside of Horus's and Abaddon's head holes glow red) and by flames at their feet or something, so it's not just all black. It's like...coming home.

I played Iron Hands allied with Mechanicum in HH 1.0 and I'm thinking an Iron Hands Dreads list now, really am considering what you said to bring Castellax. Just saturate the battlefield with big stompy robots, more than most armies have Heavy Weapons to deal with...but really, just an excuse to bring Castellaxes.

I agree. It used to be Artificer Armour with a Power Weapon, but in 3rd ed...I still want a Melta Bomb. But that's like a Security Blanket thing with me. A Combi-Bolter might be a better bet like Brother Lokkorex said. I just feel less safe without a Melta Bomb on all my Sarnts after my HH 1.0 game vs. an All-Pred list.

I had to google "pipistrelle" bat. I was like "is this a new accounting term?" I literally scratched my head like this is a new VAT or something. No, it's an actual bat, like Batman. I didn't see that coming. Only in a GW annual report would a bat be mentioned. Let's hope it gets resolved by next year, unlike GW's perpetual IT issues. And let us all go to the Horus Heresy forums and discuss HH 3.0. We're Bolter & Chainsword, discussing HH is what we DO.