godking

Bile succesfully cloned 3 primarchs that we know of Horus Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus its not a big stretch that he was succesfull in cloning other Primarchs.

Finished it yesterday evening. 10/10 even the downer ending. This book also underscores the main difference between Sanguinus and Kurze . Both have the ability to see glimpses of the future but Sanguinus never quit or gave in to despair unlike Kurze.

Finished it yesterday. Best book of the series Sanguinus is truly the MVP and his speech was inspiring and refreshing I like the little tidbits and details that ADB put into this novel like the Talk between Land and Zephon about knowing no fear. Land was absolutely right in his viewpoint regarding Astartes regardless of how powerful and useful they are.

There are multiple fault lines which could rupture in a schism:

Just finished it loved it. About as good an ending as one could get for this trilogy Mortarion is still stone stupid after 10000 years Though Matthieu is gone the implications of his actions will linger Loved the discussion about the implications of godhood

We know that the AL stole the genetic material to create space marines and we know that Fabius Bile was able to clone primarchs. A good idea for a future novel set in 40K would be a still alive Alpharius having struck a deal with Fabius Bile To clone himself/Omegon.

Finished it this morning. Loved it Minor quible is that Alpharius for all his so called intelligence makes some horrendously bad calls about his fellow primarchs Perturabo humble ? And underestimating Dorn cost him his life.

having not read it yet, i'm open to the idea that dan has leaned too heavily on it in ways he might not have in horus rising. i'll find out soon. to clarify; whenever marvel comics try to do gods and goddesses, it comes across as cheesey rather than epic. but i don't mind that in my comic books. same goes for hollywood takes like troy ("we are lions" hahahahaha) etc. i do like hbo's rome for all it's bawdiness and graffiti and tiny buildings. in general, the big difference between primarchs and gods of myth is that a lot of the primarchs grew up working class, or warrior class or poor or enslaved or in villages or as criminals rather than on olympus. they had a distinct lack of elocution classes. guys like robuote or perturabo would carry them with a certain regal quality, whereas the khan would swear and spit like a ancient mongol and angron would be coarse as possible...but still regal in their own unrefined ways. fulgrim is one who i imagine put on airs he learnt later in adulthood, but is working class in his heart. horus seemed to endeavour towards an opposite perception; to make himself as relatable as possible to his people. but i take your point, it could go too far. but so far we haven't actually heard an "oi mate" from any of the primarchs...have we? True i don't expect Guilliman Perturabo Dorn or Magnus to be coarse in conversation. I would expect Angron Jaghatai Russ to be when angered.

Just finished it it 10/10 I liked Keelers interviews with the prisoners (Burtok) I liked the depiction of Perturabo Erda's insight about the Emperor Mortarion truly is the the dumbest and most ignorant of the Primarchs spending an eternity being something he hates is a well deserved fate Ahriman was correct in his assesment of him.

Correct and he could have used the remaining thunder warriors to get an early start at conquering the Sol System before he had enough Astartes to replace them. I don't see the Jovian or Saturnine cultures having anything to stop the Thunder warriors. The mechanicum would be an issue but then again Mars was not taken by force. A few years of a headstart in the beginning could make all the difference

This presumes that there was sufficient control over the state of the Thunder Warrior to carry out the control phase-out you propose. Granted, we could be seeing the sort of conflict between older and newer material that the studios advertise as a given for the setting, but Wraight is proposing that the timing of a Thunder Warrior falling apart was not a given. That is, the Emperor didn’t design the Thunder Warriors with a 10-year shelf life, at the end of which their organs would fail; the process by which they were created — a stopgap measure developed before the necessary lore and technology had been recovered — was imperfect and volatile, and resulted in products that would go indiscriminately psychotic, suffer organ failure, or succumb to uncontrollable bio-mass mutation at an unpredictable time. You’re proposing that this force should nonetheless have been used until it was spent. Given what Wraight describes, it seems that by the time Mount Ararat happened maintaining the Legio Cataegis was more trouble than they were worth. Hence not creating new Thunder warriors. You are correct in that the timing of the thunder warriors breaking down is not a given. But then we also have the thousand sons before finding Magnus and the emperor allowing them on the field when they where presumably more prone to break down in mutations then the thunder warriors. The thunder warriors could become indiscriminately psychotic The emperor tolerated the world eaters for close to a 100 years after they where united with angron and brain boxed into murder machines. Where they really more trouble then they where worth compared to the Legio Astartes when the emperor destroyed at least two legions was close to destroying the world bearers and allowed Curze,Angron and their legions to basically run riot ? I think a managable ammount of the thunder warriors could be stabilized especially with the insight gleamed from the Astartes project once "natural" attrition brought them down to managable numbers. A managable loyal veteran force capable of standing up to Astartes is to valuable a resource to waste If there was a place for Angron/Curze there would a place for Ushotan/Arik Taranis in the great crusade. The Emperor was pressed for time ? He could have used what was left of the thunder warriors for the first steps of conquering the nearby planets instead of waiting until he had sufficient numbers of Astartes to begin.

Fair points Personally i would not have killed off the Thunder warriors i would have discontinued the creation of new Thunder warriors. The thunder warriors i did have i would send into the hardest battles within the solar system where casualties are going to be high wittling them down slowly while also concentrating on the Astartes project. Once the Thunder warriors are sufficiently whittled down and only the strongest and most stable are left i would have combined them into one strike force to be used in an emergency and as a counterweight to the astartes Legions should the need arise. Simply killing them all off and trying to hide it is a waste of resources.

Except you’ve got both the Emperor and Astarte, the two best geneticists in the galaxy, saying it can’t be done. That, and the book mentions that the main thing really keeping the Thunder Warriors loyal was their imminent death. Plus, even if the Thunder Warrior creation could be perfected to remove instability, it doesn’t necessarily follow that existing Thunder Warriors could be saved. Yet Arik Taranis who basically was self taught was able to stabilize himself and Gotha for as much as he could for centuries. Not all Thunder warriors could be saved but some could have been saved and repurposed.

I loved Valdor but i still believe that it was possible to stabilize at least some of the thunder warriors and that killing them off was a waste of resources. I wonder how things would have worked out had the emperor not gone the primarch/astartes route and focused on stabilizing the thunder warriors he could and perfecting the system to create thunder warriors without the instability. If Arik Taranis could do it with far less resources then the emperor could have stabilized the thunder warriors. It would have taken longer and be more difficult but it would lessen the chances of treachery.

Just read it. 9/10 Loved the world building and the POV characters. Ushotan was right he lived something that Valdor will never understand. To bad that there was no mention or a cameo of Arik Taranis.