Mazryonh

That's one thing I would like to see FW address. Not only are most termies overcosted relative to their ingame utility, plasma is one of the things they are very vulnerable to. 2W would be a step towards making termies really good objective holders. The White Scars are out of their element during the Siege of Terra, specializing as they do in offensive actions over open terrain. Even their "Swift Action" rule reflects this, because it's useless when sitting behind a fortification or on a good firing position while using heavy weaponry. So the Scars are stuck being standard legion marines while defending a fixed locale, without the defensive advantages given to the Imperial Fists, or even the Iron Hands. Once the traitors made landfall on Terra, Hitting and Running would do nothing but buy less and less time before the main traitor force makes its way down. Furthermore, to Hit and Run, you need a safe place or direction to run to. In the mazelike streets and myriad cramped buildings of Old Terra, many of whose avenues and passageways were simply never built to accommodate people the size of Astartes (which in 30k are still a relatively recent invention) or bigger, which means that the Scars' options for maneuver warfare is severely restricted. This doesn't even take into account how, after the Unification of Terra, people who were freed from living in terrible conditions and from the constant warfare started building and repairing everything they could on the planet until it became a planet-spanning city again, much of which will be wrecked during the Siege, greatly delaying any loyalist retreat. Horus' objective is a fixed location, all the legions who listen to his orders have their guns largely fixed in the direction of the Palace, and if the defenders tried to hit and run from flanking directions they'd leave the walls unmanned at worst, or only distract the traitors momentarily at best. That's because the White Scars don't have the manpower, or battlefield control, or orbital/aerial superiority to carry out their tactical specialty. If they tried to run away over a clear area (hard to find in the Siege) after hitting hard, they still have to deal with traitor airpower or orbital fire, or even just daemons summoned by Lorgar's forces who can turn up almost anywhere chasing them down or getting in their way. As for the Keshig, I'd argue that eventually the White Scars got into enough close-quarters situations where Hitting and Running wasn't useful that some members got good enough at it, and were put into Cataphractii armour (the best standard equipment for this kind of situation). All that's assuming the Khan's not incompetent, which I hope he will be portrayed as even while being forced into conditions he'd likely find claustrophobia-inducing. Technically I'd like to see the Emperor send out the Scars away from the Palace walls (which is not where they'll be most effective) to try and rescue any loyalist human forces outside the Palace's walls and bring them inside to play their part. One of the greatest atrocities of the Siege of Terra was when some of the traitor legions got bored and started ravaging the planet's civilian population. Successfully rescuing and then press-ganging those people into the Emperor's service would require a lot of swift action, indeed.

Why not 2W for Phoenix Terminators? It would make them a little more competitive at least, given that they can hit hard on the charge but don't have much staying power beyond that of vanilla termies once they get stuck in. Still, even with a 2W buff, Phoenixes are one of the least versatile unique terminators in 30k until their rules get updated, because they can't handle vehicles, or multi-wound/high-toughness infantry, and have no ranged weapons at all. Because some 30k fans like to play out scenarios based on the HH novels, to start. Also, no one says it has to be the original Archamus. The end of Praetorian of Dorn tells us that "Archamus" is strongly hinted to become an honourary title name for whomever takes the position of first among Huscarls in the future. I'd like to think that Archamus and the Huscarls were originally intended to have some unique tricks and equipment up their sleeves in the story, but perhaps the HH model staff told the author "Cut back a bit! Gav Thorpe mentioned enough stuff for the Dark Angels' Dreadwing in Angels of Caliban that could fill an entire army's model range! Don't overload us by hyping up models we haven't designed yet that the fans will beg us for!" or something to that effect. I'd settle for the Huscarls always having the "Resolve of Stone" and "Shield Charge" rules in effect on their unit no matter the RoW chosen, maybe even the option to take master-crafted Solarite Power Gauntlets for all of them. That, at least, would be relatively easy for FW to make. They love making Rhino doors and Rhino/Predator Extra Armour for any Space Marine faction they support. Adding "attachment points" on the side armour or improved front armour piece so Rhinos can move together on the tabletop with more staying power than unmodified Rhinos shouldn't be too hard for FW either. If FW made a reference to the original Space Hulk boardgame (which featured Blood Angels Terminators) for Terminator-armoured Sanguinary Guard, as in "they learned to don and fight effectively in Terminator Armour when clearing Human Rebels and Xenos from derelict or drifting void ships," it'd be a nice nod to old-school 40k since the first appearance of Terminator Armour in any official 40k product ever was in Space Hulk. As for unique equipment, letting Sanguinary Guard Terminators take lesser versions of their Photonic Relic Blades, or even the ability to take Assault 2 Inferno Pistols instead of Combi-Bolters mgiht also work. The Dark Angels' six Wings already existed in 30k, including the Ravenwing and Deathwing, the only two which are still known to be in use for 40k. As for why the White Scars should get 2W terminators, it's because every Legion may have its own unique strengths, but each needed to be self-sufficient in its strategic and tactical capabilities, and had a standardized selection of infantry and vehicle types planned out by the Emperor before the return of the Primarchs, including an elite terminator unit. That's why the White Scars are still capable of armoured warfare with tanks despite not specializing in it. Also, there are plenty of tactical situations where hitting and running isn't possible or desirable, such as the cityfighting and defensive siege actions in the Siege of Terra, or voidship boarding actions. Elite Cataphractii Terminators would be the hardiest non-unique infantry a Space Marine Legion could field in that situation. Having said that, giving the White Scars Keshig (their unique terminator units) the ability to Hit and Run would be a good start. I've already said that Tyrants should have had a horrendously long record of offensive siege battles, likely involved being bowled over multiple times by heavy weaponry and just getting back up again to continue an advance, so their resilience gained from experience should be reflected in more than just their equipment. Giving their Sergeant more wounds would at least give us some breathing room against attempts to snipe him and deprive his unit of his useful omniscope. Gorgons only have a vanilla-termie-level invulnerable save (not the best to have around once the enemy starts shooting lots of AP2 weapons at them), which is what led me to believe that the Morlocks were originally intended to be based on Cataphractii Termies (Gorgons last I checked can't even do Sweeping Advances). Stronger Grav Guns that Get Hot might also be a balanced unique weapon for Morlocks too. I think it was just a fluff justification for their 2W. Here, try this version instead: "Sekhmet must roll for their powers normally, but if you aren't satisfied you may forgo the rolled powers for just the Endurance psychic power instead." So like the theme for the Thousand Sons, the preternatural endurance of Sekmets wouldn't come from their gene-seed but from a magical buff. And a Praetor in Terminator Armour 4 wounds?What about Primarchs or other special charakters? How about another way of skinning this cat? Basic Vanilla or CC Terminators get 2 wounds, unique Terminators stay at 2 but their Sergeants get 3, but losing an entire unit of Unique Terminators nets the opponent one more VP, to represent how rare these elite-of-the-elite infantry are.

Not to disparage the late great Alan Bligh, but for Morlocks, Ferrus Manus' terminator bodyguard, to be stuck wearing only Gorgon suits seems a bit of a letdown to me. The Morlocks are supposed to be the very best of his legion, but they don't get the privilege of unique gear and abilities. Ferrus Manus always struck me as someone who would storm off to his workshop (after chewing out his troops) after a less-than-satisfactory battle and build better stuff for his men. Every legion was originally raised from Terra, and then eventually supplied with vehicles and war materiel from Mars. To make logistics and strategic organization easier prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs, it was clear that the Emperor had standardized the original legions to a large degree. This makes it likely that establishing and maintaining an Elite Terminator bodyguard unit was the standard throughout the legions before the Primarchs returned, even if certain Primarchs de-emphasized that unit later. For the World Eaters, the Devourers likely still had their own martial pride and history of service with their legion and would persist in their own martial endeavours, even if their broken Primarch wanted nothing to do with them. In game, this might mean that they can't accompany Angron but may accompany any non-unique WE character, but would have more tactical options open to them rather than just bumrushing everything they see like Khârn and the Red Butchers. For the Blood Angels, even they had a pragmatic side. Weren't they the first Legion-descended chapter to use Terminator armour in the original Space Hulk boardgame? For reasons I've outlined above, the Terran-raised Blood Angels likely had their own elite terminators, and I doubt that Sanguinius would have disbanded them. It's likelier he simply deployed them when the situation called for it, such as cityfighting or close-quarters battle like in, well, Space Hulks and similar environments. For the Raven Guard, I'm looking forward to the Deliverers too. Giving them access to teleportation transponders no matter the RoW being used sounds like the minimum they would need. Hit and Run would also be nice. There's plenty of ways they can fit the Raven Guard's theme even without access to Jump Packs or stealth abilities (such as the Alpha Legion's own Terminators). The Word Bearers apparent overreliance on the Gal Vorbak (which as I outlined earlier, were both irreplaceable and irreplicable) isn't very logical. It's likely they had an Elite Terminator unit as per legion standardization before the Gal Vorbak ever arrived on the scene, and they could replace members of that unit unlike the Gal Vorbak. I'd like a unique weapon option for those elite termies too, maybe something like proto-daemon weapons or a unique table to roll on for Dark Channeling. Thanks for the reminder. If FW ever makes Huscarl models we need rules for a squad leader model based on Archamus from the Praetorian of Dorn novel. Sounds like you're thinking the Gorgons should eventually get access to the Keys of Hel. Could be the whole basis for a "last ditch" RoW for the Iron Hands, if FW are going to let them go that far. I hope Malevolence does at least give vanilla termies 2Ws to start or 3W for Elite Terminators while providing a minor cost reduction for the former.

It would be a nice nod to 8th edition if all HH Terminators in general got at least two wounds. They are, to a man, supposed to be a Veteran's Veteran, which makes for some strange disconnects in the fluff/mechanics: Tyrant Siege Terminators are guys who have been through more meatgrinder battles than most other legions' soldiers would ever dream of being in. These are guys who are supposed to have been bowled over by artillery shells and found it within themselves to stand back up and keep advancing forward before they earned the right to wear Terminator armour, but the Tyrants still have only one wound in the rules. Phoenix Guard Terminators, who are horrendously one-dimensional and don't have much utility beyond infantry-killing on the charge and their "cheerleading" ability. A few other Legion-specific terminators have the ability to take Meltabombs, but not the Phoenix Guard, who despite their name don't even have the ability to get back up after taking a wound (maybe changing their stats to have two wounds and meltabombs would work). I would agree with giving Lernaens and Varagyr Terminators two wounds each. The Lernaens already have access to AL-specific advantages such as the ability to take Conversion Beamers and Power Daggers, and of course the ability to use the AL's Mutable Tactics to make them stand out amongst the legion-specific Terminators, but 2W would suit their Elite-of-The-Elite status better. Certain regular terminators in the HH era actually have some nice tricks up their sleeves, such as the Imperial Fists' regular Terminators having access to equipment like Storm Shields and Assault Cannons that most other Legions' Terminators can't have. The Alpha Legion's and Thousand Sons' regular Terminators can even bring specialty ammo for their Combi-Bolters that can substantially increase their MEQ killing power too. But otherwise, you're right; vanilla terminators in the HH can sometimes struggle to make back their points. FW has rebalanced unique terminators before, so there's a chance of Varagyr being made more viable. The SoH's unique Justaerin Terminators used to be severely overcosted and had a starting squad size of only three models. Then they got a price reduction and the ability to take up to a maximum of 12 models in a squad (though I think that's a typo, since the original squad model count maxed out at 10 from taking 7 additional models, and the revised version makes the minimum squad size 5 models while not changing the maximum number of additional models you can take). So aside from the aforementioned Deathwing, Keshig, and Atramentar, what other legion-specific Terminators are we missing models and/or rules for? I can think of these off the top of my head: Devourers (World Eaters): We already have the Red Butchers that have 2W, but I think the Devourers would be a nice, saner variant with better access to more varied weaponry. Morlocks (Iron Hands): The Gorgon Terminators are nice, but we still don't have rules for the Morlocks who were Ferrus Manus' Honour Guard. I'm thinking they were the result of his attempts to optimize Cataphractii armour (whereas the Gorgon Terminators wear customized Indomitus armour). Blood Angels Unique Terminators: There's few things the Blood Angels love so much as attacking while wearing Jump Packs, which Terminators can't use, but even they must have seen the usefulness of an Elite Terminator unit of their own. Imperial Fists Unique Terminators: We already have the Templar Brethren, but I'm looking for a Terminator unit that might be led around by a Terminator-armoured Sigismund or Alexis Polux that could have 2W as well. Raven Guard Unique Terminators: The AL have proven that infiltrating Terminators is in fact possible. Maybe the Raven Guard could also do something similar with their own unique loadout. Word Bearers Unique Terminators: The Gal Vorbak (the units currently fulfilling the role of "legion-specific 2W elite infantry unit") were at best a happy accident in the fluff and could not be replenished once lost (look at how 40k's Possessed Marines don't match up to the Gal Vorbak's abilities). The WBs should at least have had legion-specific Terminators of their own as well, like many of the other legions did during the Great Crusade, before the Gal Vorbak arose.

Not only are the unique models for units like the Death Guard's Deathshroud, the Sons of Horus' Justaerin, and the World Eaters' Red Butchers nice to look at and fun to use ingame, they're also 2W unique terminators for their parent legions. The thing is, we still have yet to see rules or models for units that could fit this archetype for some of the other legions, such as the Dark Angels' Deathwing, the White Scars' Keshig, and the Night Lords' Atramentar Terminators. Has anyone been able to ask the FW team about this? The fact that we can run entire units of these guys in certain 30k lists while still remaining Battle-Forged looks like one of the unique parts of 30k to me.

I hope that the Dark Angels' versatility is adequately reflected in the 30k game. I made a thread previously about whether or not the pattern of "Each -wing of the first legion merits its own Rite of War" would be followed for all six -wings, but unless the Angelus book confirms this pattern there's no guarantee it will have one. My guess is that the Firewing is the psyker/anti-psyker division of the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels had to be able to cover all their bases as the First Legion, and given the diversity of foes faced during the Great Crusade, it's almost certain that they had to face and adapt to foes using psyker abilities before dedicated psyker/anti-psyker forces (like the Sisters of Silence and the Thousand Sons) were formed during the GC. Besides, psyker abilities give access to unique advantages (such as Divination) accessible in no other way. Can't we also deduce some of the legions' "tactical holes" by referring to the ingame rules? The Blood Angels and Raven Guard both have restrictions on the number of tanks they can field, so we can safely say that they didn't emphasize armoured warfare as much as the other legions did. Similarly, the Iron Hands are restricted in the number of Fast Attack choices or unit types they can use, so clearly Ferrus wasn't someone for raiding or rapidly exploiting breakthroughs. Or how the White Scars will be stuck operating at suboptimal capacity during the Siege of Terra since they are at their deadliest when moving above a certain speed, which they will rarely get to do so in the street-to-street fighting of Holy Terra. Sometimes the holes get revealed in fluff, too, such as with the Raven Guard at the Battle of Gate 42 where they were ordered by Horus to conduct an offensive siege action and suffered heavy losses because they didn't have the tanks, the manpower, or artillery support suited to taking fortifications out in the open that other legions like the Iron Warriors did. Can we also say that the Alpha Legion was also an all-rounder legion? Their Mutable Tactics is uniquely versatile. I'd still like to see how Legions like the Dark Angels or Alpha Legion faced down hordes of angry World Eaters or other rampaging melee forces. At least the Alpha Legion have access to Counter Attack, but even that's not much more than a speedbump for an Alpha Legion tactical squad up against a Nob squad or enough World Eaters.

This looks pretty cool, like they're on their last steps on the path to becoming full-on Khorne Berserkers.

More thoughts (gives away a bit on the story itself, so be warned): There must be few things a non-Terran-born White Scar hates hearing more than: "There is nowhere left to run, brother." The bit you describe kind of makes you wonder how the Terran-born White Scars dealt with that kind of warfare during the struggle to unify Terra, though. It's not like Terra was any less of a majorly-overcrowded planet-spanning city back then.

So the key is to keep your investment small with regards to the "Signs and Portents" rule? Have you had any luck getting the positive bonus on a big unit, like a large command squad?

Has anyone here had any luck with using the "Signs and Portents" rule from the "Dark Brethren" RoW available to the Word Bearers? The fact that you get an equal chance of a blessing or a curse sounds awfully dicey (pun totally intended).

I guess that's the occupational hazard of us readers when we only get one viewpoint of a character. But I'm sure at least some loyalist characters remember what happened to the Thunder Warriors during the Unification Wars on Terra. The Thunder Warriors probably thought themselves to be the Emperor's most valuable asset, which turned out to be very untrue because they were unceremoniously and promptly replaced when it came time for the Great Crusade even within the Terran Solar System. With that in mind, it's plausible for some of those people to fear what would have happened to the Astartes or even the Primarchs once the Great Crusade was won. The way the Emperor treated Angron (and by extension the Lost Primarchs) as expendable by leaving him to burn himself out on the field of battle showed that even the Primarchs were not absolutely necessary to his plans. And as I said before on this thread, if simple words can be used to make the Traitor Primarchs lose their cool and act foolishly, then why not use that advantage? The fact that Angron lost his patience at Isstvan III is one of the major reasons why the Imperium got word of the Horus Heresy before Horus could win via blitzkrieg according to his original plan. If Constantin Valdor or another Custodes bigwig was able to show (perhaps with some prodding by Malcador) just how much better he is at direct combat combat than say, Lorgar, that makes the Custodes prime targets more due to Lorgar's bruised ego, especially if Valdor makes sure to rub it in Lorgar's face that an Emperor's Son cannot face up to one of the higher-level Custodes. That's a possible tactical advantage because it could mean that the Custodes can be used to draw away more traitor forces than would be advisable to commit to them, becoming very effective decoys.

The Imperial Palace is the size of a large continent. The authors could spend volumes covering all the action happening on its walls and in its halls, let alone the rest of the planet. It's going to be hard to encompass the sheer size of the Siege of Terra while still keeping it relevant to characters on a personal level. This is essentially the Battle of Calth but with many more forces involved, and with only one major objective rather than "wreak havoc across an entire planet." The Iron Warriors are certainly used to being on the attack during grinding siege actions. But they're not the only ones running this operation, so it won't be anywhere near as orderly as they would normally do. The Daemons, being creatures of Chaos, aren't exactly the most likely to obey orders from anyone other than Lorgar and his legion (and the Greater ones not likely to do that either). The Daemonic Primarchs have their own goals to pursue, and their own legions probably won't listen to Horus very well. The Sons of Horus are used to blitzkriegs, which the Siege of Terra most certainly isn't. But the "creme de la creme" is what dramatically ties it together. All the nameless Solar Auxilia ground under the boots, tanks, and guns of the Traitor Primarchs, tragic as their deaths are, don't affect the reader as much as the Loyalist Primarch heroes trying their best to win and save as many loyalist lives as they can. Back on topic, I want to see Constantin Valdor have a little 1-on-1 time with one of the non-Daemonic Traitor Primarchs. The Emperor has been shown to say that he cares more about his Custodes than his Astartes, and maybe a couple of the Traitor Primarchs would be shocked to learn how much better the Custodes were treated than they themselves were. And then Traitor Primarchs realize that they too were placeholders compared to the Custodes.

Fulgrim, as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, feeds on excess. Sooner or later he'll decide that assaulting the Palace is the best way to pass the time. So would the possibility of taking Sanguinius' head as another trophy. As for Curze, do you remember that line from The Dark Knight by the Joker that went "I think you and I are destined to do this forever"? Curze is just too good a villain for the authors to leave him imprisoned until he meets the end he foresaw right from the moment he first woke up. And as I said earlier, lots of people love to see these "who would win" matches. Of course, they're not absolutely necessary to move the plot forward, but they're the sort of thing people most often pay to see. Besides, as the nominal leader of Imperium Secundus, Sanguinius can just say that "My visions tell me that Curze may yet have a part to play in Terra's defense. I'm taking him with me" and the Lion and Guilliman would be in no position to object (wasn't there a bit at the end of Angels of Caliban where Sanguinius realizes that his visions may be truer than even he thinks?). Taking Curze to meet and speak with his father in person one last time would be a great way to end his character arc. I think Lorgar would be a good candidate to meet Malcador in the flesh. Lorgar commands his psychic power mostly from his Chaos Blessings. Malcador needs none of that and is still the stronger psyker. Then that's a lot of wasted opportunities for character development. But I don't think Angron needs to kill his own troops. As a Daemon Prince he can just rely on Khornate Daemons because they're "Without Number" and can be replaced fairly easily by summoning in more.

If that happens (and it should, given that Malcador himself doesn't have much time left to shine before meeting his pre-established end in previous canon), there should be at least one scene where Malcador says to the Emperor "If Magnus were here, this would be much easier" (reflecting on how Magnus would in fact be there if Horus hadn't sent the Space Wolves to exterminate the Thousand Sons). So maybe something like Malcador using his psychic strength to shield specific areas from Titan-class weapons fire when Palace's shields are down in specific sectors might work, whereas Magnus might have been able to shield the entire continent the Palace is on. I hope at least Malcador's Knights-Errant are helping with the defense as well, probably with banishing Daemons with some borrowed strength from Malcador too. Don't you say that. Don't you even think that. I have this irrational (or is it?) fear in the back of my mind that they're going to do something to leave it open for Sanguinius to return in 40k. Actually, now that I think about it, they wouldn't even need to make any changes. Speculation and slight spoilers for short stories and Master of Mankind below. Edit: writing this made me feel dirty. I need a shower. So happens the worst thing ever - I hate myself for thinking of it. Don't hate yourself. I'm sure worse fiction has been written about this kind of thing. But as for letting Sanguinius survive his destined end or allowing him to come back in time for the "Gathering Storm," what about this older plot thread?

Since the most serious Terran resistance is centred around the Imperial Palace (and certainly the Emperor would have ordered many valuable Terran or Lunar people ordinarily capable of defending themselves, like the Terrawatt Clan and the Selenar cults, to take shelter in the Palace), it's likely that Daemon Fulgrim will become bored with hunting down and sacrificing stragglers found on the rest of the planet, who are not as likely to put up any real fight. Testing the Palace's defences is going to be something he'll decide to pass the time with sooner or later. The writers could even take a page from the Old Testament (specifically the Battle of Jericho where Jericho's walls were brought down with trumpets and shouting) and have Fulgrim subject a portion of the palace to an entire Slaaneshi symphony "performed" with his Noise Marines, Sonic Dreadnoughts, and the screams of sacrificial slaves. Just hearing that unholy noise for hours on end (and since part of it is psychic, walls wouldn't protect against it entirely) would probably drive many of the defenders hopelessly mad and be one of the more nightmarish parts of the Siege. Sanguinius would be a prime candidate to stop that music, as might his Death Company who are already insane and wouldn't care about the music. Besides, according to established canon, by the time of the Siege, Sanguinius is running out of time to strut his stuff. His fans would most likely want to see him at his most heroic, including as many fights against Traitor Primarchs as is believble, before his destined end. Yes, but given what happened in Praetorian of Dorn, Dorn has proved that even he understands the value of targeting commanders (even in personal combat) like Corax did. Calling out Perturabo and making him angry enough to risk a personal fight is a good way to deprive the Traitors of one of their primary nodes of Command and Control, because both were among Perturabo's specialties (second only to Horus, of course). Though given the rules we have for Dorn and Perturabo, Dorn might have a very hard time going up against Perturabo's Forgebreaker . . . Thanks. Anyone who watches sports commercials (especially for UFC/MMA/Boxing matches) knows that the promoters love to hype up "Matches of the Century." It more often than not works. The same is true of many comic book plotlines, and don't several Black Library writers already have experience in writing for comic books? Due in no small part to the efforts of ADB, the Night Lords and by extension Curze have become fan favourites, and I think both deserve more than just a footnote role in the Siege of Terra. Besides, if Curze gets to speak in person with his father one last time, this could be a great opportunity to plant a "plot seed" for Curze to still be relevant to the "Gathering Storm" plotline, possibly with something valuable he could pass on even if he is still dead by that time. Besides, I'd very much like to find out whether Sanguinius was right about Curze in the end--that Curze could still find redemption. Also, just because Curze gets more pages for the Siege doesn't mean the other Primarchs can't get more of their own. Sanguinius might say something like "I know my days are numbered, but I already know those days have been better than the eternity you will have." Either way, the stark contrast of how each sought perfection would be a great thing to read about once they meet in person.