Ebon Hand

Oh, right, I forgot the way 8th edition does this stuff - modifying the roll rather than the weapon skill. Damn. I guess I gotta try to remember this as well as I've been thinking of actually using Grimaldus some day - I've in fact never used him or Helbrecht on the table to date, despite having had the models for well over five years now! Shame on me. I've been using him more often lately so I double checked the rule to be sure. It's addressed in the designers notes. Silver lining, at least Chaos (and every other enemy) has to play by the same rules.

Wait, why not? I'm assuming you're talking about Unmatched Zeal. I see nothing preventing it from working with power fists? The reason is because of the -1 to hit with fists. Sadly, this means you never really roll a 6 to trigger it unless you find a way to get +1 to hit, and I'm not aware of a way to do that without witchery. I would be so happy to be proven wrong on this.

I like to think of Terminators as assault units rather than shooting since a big chunk of their cost is put into the power fists. That said, I think they are important as any list should have at least some S8 close combat in it. However, you will need rerolls to get any mileage out of them in cc, so a Chaplain or at least a Marshal (Captain) is a good idea with them. The drawback of the fists is that they won't work with Grimaldus' extra attack ability, but with Helbrecht you will get S10 out of them which is nice against vehicles and T5 stuff. Deep strike assault is the usual deployment method as they have a below average movement value. However, keep in mind that, even as Black Templars, a deep strike charge is a risky maneuver. Don't be afraid to put them in your LR Crusader depending on the situation. Sometimes Terminators in a Land Raider is much more terrifying to the enemy and will ensure that they have to deal with them quickly or face your wrath. If you do go for the deep strike charge, have your teleport homer down in a spot to relocate them if the opponent simply moves away from them. This can win you games, so never forget the teleport homer! I think they are ok, however I have found myself using assault terminators more often. The cost of the cyclone and chainfists just hurts them so much imo. I'd rather have a few thunderhammers with lightning claws mixed in to lower cost. Of course, that is a personal choice since I run Grimaldus and I like the extra attack procs with my lightning claws.

Honor guard are great. I think all the talk of their "poor" stats are really missing their cost to wound ratio and comparing them to past editions is just going to cloud your judgement. With power axes (they can take a variety of power weapons via the index so this can go down to 25 with swords) each Honor guard is 26 points. However they have 2 wounds, so break that down further and you're paying 13 points per wound which is the same as a regular power armored Marine. That means that, for FREE, you are getting a 2+ save and a power axe plus the ability to act as ablative wounds for a character. Vs 2 Marines, you are losing 1 bolter but the defensive stats are there. Any list can cut a few Marines and add them in their place to protect your important characters. Company vets are 16 points base, so you are paying 3 points for their extra attack, and that's before factoring in weapons. Yes HG "only" have 2 attacks, but that's what you paid for and you're already getting a bargain! They can't take thunderhammers, but why would you even want to? You want to hit on 4s and then sacrifice these now expensive models to your character? The Chapter champion is your damage dealer. He was part of the Honor Guard previously along with the Ancient. I give my Chapter Champion a burning blade for a relatively cheap beatstick. Or, if you're cool, just bring the Emperor's Champion. These guys aren't meant to be fighting monsters, they are meant to be guarding your character while HE fights monsters with his thunderhammer. You take wounds on your character with his Storm shield and pass off any that make it through to the Honor Guard. You might not even want your Honor Guard in that combat, just nearby to bodyguard while firing bolters so the enemy doesn't just attack them first. To answer the bodyguard question, each damage that your character takes is what's passed off, not the wounds. So if you take 6 damage to the face from a lascannon, 4 will go to the HG on a 2+, the rest stay on your character. No lost wound shenanigans this edition, pretty much all bodyguards work this way. The small squad size lets you fit these guys into a list very easily and fill elite slots while you're at it. You can tac on a vanguard detachment super easily because of this. First blood can be an issue, so if your Commander is on foot then company vets might be a better choice if you are facing snipers, but otherwise the character rule will protect him and vets have a max size of 5. 5 wounds that is, vs the Honor guards' 4 with a 2+ save... Not a huge difference, unless multi damage weaponry is involved. Go ahead and shoot at my Honor Guard... They're dirt cheap! The real obstacle that arises from the small squad size is getting them to stick with characters who charge, especially if you bring multiple Honor Guard squads. For that reason, you want to charge them first and move your characters in afterwards. You might find it better to keep your character back with them if you rolled poorly on those charges. This also makes it preferable to use them riding in vehicles with characters where your charges will likely be closer and thus more reliable. They only take 1 slot as mentioned above. Black Templars also have the benefit of being better at keeping these men coherent with your commanders with their righteous zeal. Try them out, but don't just throw them at the wall to see what sticks. Think of them as an extension of your characters.

@Firepower Check out the stats for mauls and lances, they're the same! I'm guessing the omission on the sergeant was just to save some ink. Give him a maul and call it a lance, no one will know the difference! The lightning claw on Techmarine fad was for getting the +1 attack bonus for the specialist weapon category, of which lightning claws and powerfist (Servo-arm) both were a part. I was too stubborn and kept the cog axe. I'm quite glad I did now. Each power weapon has its place now which is very exciting for those of us who like cool models. They are all functional with pros and cons. The only power weapon that I feel is lacking is the Eviscerator and that makes me sad because they're friggin cool. They're just so expensive and only available on a model that has 1 attack.

You could do company veteran bikers, in those your veteran sword brother should be 3 attacks base. You could then outfit them with as many power weapons of any type as you want.

Don't you dare snap those off. Proxy if you must. I can't see anyone objecting unless they're a tight arse. :P

In my opinion, against most targets axes are better than swords until you add +1 str and/or rerolls to wound. Then Power swords are better generally speaking. With +1 str axes still come in handy vs t6 heavy infantry like Wraithguard. Mauls are nice too for the same reason. @Firepower Biker sergeants can take axes and mauls. No lances, but lances have the same stats as power mauls anyway. They can do some decent cc vs shooting units.

Just imagine the Chaplain next to Helbrecht. Just Chappie alone would be str 8, with the powerfist making him S16. How's that for keeping it gangster? Bonus points if you call Helbrecht Ninja and Grimaldus Yolandi. We're talking levels of righteous anger not seen since Dorn himself challenged the hiding coward Peturabo in the iron cage. Chappie will make pretty much anything t8 or lower go to sleep. Seriously though, s5 is a magic number for many power weapons for both strength doubling and in the case of lightning claws, getting that +1 on the wounding rolls vs t5 and t8, which seem to be more and more prevalent in my area. Things like Death Guard, Custodes or bike mounted marines can be a serious pita for lightning claws, which is why I run a few thunderhammers in my lightning claw Terminators.

Lightning claws already reroll failed wounds don't they? They're really nasty in large groups when you have rerolls to hit making them now reroll hits and wounds. Their weakness is t5+ troops and especially t8, but if you're running Helbrecht or a Chaplain Dread, they become even nastier vs almost anything 3+ save or worse. Vs 2+ saves, the -2 rend won't do as much unless it's a unit with a 3 or 4+ inv, in which case they are better than most other weapons. I could see taking a single claw if you are running a sword brother or a character with a combi. Shield/claw is not a terrible idea either if you are having trouble with power weapon wielding meqs or don't expect to be able to strike first. Otherwise the double claw feels like a better buy as you get a discount on the second claw and lightning claws like their weight of attacks. Combine those claw rerolls with Grimaldus and it starts to get zealous really fast!

I think giving it the dozer ram from the Land Raider Aries would be really cool. Dozer Ram, 0 pts, Str User, -1 Ap, d6 Dam, "Against INFANTRY units make three hit rolls for each attack rather than one if the Land Raider Ares has successfully completed a charge this turn." That would encourage you to get aggressive with it and give it some much needed cinematics. The main reason you don't see the vindicator is that its not as much fun to use anymore. It doesn't seem to do anything exciting like putting a strength 10 pie plate. The stratagem is situational and requires you to go all in on a platform that is cheap and durable but kind of ho hum in what it does. It definitely could use a d3 per 5 models rule. Bonus damage to buildings for an extra cost or perhaps a stratagem too. That wouldn't make it an offensive powerhouse but it could at least do some damage (considering those still have to roll to hit.) All this could be done keeping it the same cost and I think it would be fun and characterful.

I've always seen the operation of Whirlwinds in the Black Templars in a similar way to how the clans in Battletech view indirect fire roles, although I admit this is headcanon to reconcile the fluff conflicts. They view it as skilless or spineless at worst, gloryless at best. A duty for newer recruits, disgraced initiates or damaged/aging veterans that is officially seen as an important duty but widely regarded in the ranks as distasteful and undesirable. So I reason that the Black Templars have a few whirlwinds in some crusades, but the demand for them is low as our style of warfare and temperament means that artillery isn't always the best choice if our troops are engaging up close to the enemy. It can't be denied that they would inevitably be needed for some terrain and siege situations.

I have the Rapier Laser Destroyer. I haven't put it to use but when I do I will probably field it next to a Thunderfire or a bare bones Techmarine to give it some repair support. They are relatively fragile but the damage output is there for a good price. Side question, would an Aegis Defense line work for giving a Rapier cover?

Whirlwinds aren't heresy imo. For proof, see the makeup of the Donian Crusade from Index Astartes Black Templars, at the bottom of http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_bt.html As for Devastators, I just call them heavy Crusader squads. Shove the codex up your holy passage Ultramarines, if I need to deploy heavy weapons I certainly will! Still, I rarely use Devastators since I don't really have many heavy weapons and I like to deploy my heavies on vehicles. However, I've been toying with taking a small dev- I mean, Heavy Crusader squad with 5 men, one with lascannon, one with missile launcher, and a cherub. That gives me a cheap heavy support that can still help in cc if needed and helps fill a brigade.

I'm a Black Templar as well, so I know that if your list is sufficiently aggressive the Thunderfire won't take much heat, especially if it's out of line of sight. However, cheap/tough flying units will give it trouble (ie Plague Drone type things) as they can harass it then rejoin fighting elsewhere with their fast movement. I think the main thing to compare it to is a Whirlwind with Castellan launcher. The Whirlwind will do similar anti-infantry but better against T3 and with no slowing strategem for a little less cost. The Thunderfire will do a similar role but for 17 points more you get a smaller silhouette, some cc ability and repair from the Techmarine (comes into play fairly often in my experience) and that -1 ap. It's not bad if that's what you're looking to add into your force.