Loesh

My understanding of loose canon is not that canon is mutually valid, but rather that each source is entitled to some amount of validity. Something may be mentioned, might be held up as a possible source(Looking at you, Rogue Trader.) but depending on certain factors such as the age of the source and the number of times it's been repeated in the setting, it may be 'less' canon then other sources or theories. In some cases it might be shown later to just be outright wrong altogether. Loose canon is the idea that, for example the Dawn of War novels have a right to exist and a right to be used as a canonical source, but if they are never repeated, if they are separated from the universe entirely, and no one else seems to react and interact with them then they might be considered less canonical then a codex or ten different sources that say X thing is incorrect. In this way, authors are given the freedom to explore and expand on the universe, but also restrained in the sense that their lore might be overwritten by lot's of other lore that comes later. Which is candidly probably the best way to explore a decade old IP since it allows every author to have some impact without shackling the setting to any one vision or any one interpretation of the lore. Wielded deftly and skillfully it can be a wonderful way to explore the setting while maintaining mystery, wielded like a cudgel it is at best incredibly confusing at worst rendering an entire plotline pointless or raises like a billion other questions about other sources. Still, I quite like it. In fact I find I grow steadily more disinterested in the HH series as we approach Terra and the loose canon seems less and less in effect, so many things we know about the Primarchs and the Emperor now with a lot more certainty then we used to, I kind of miss how mythological 30k used to be.

Tarot reminds you of Yu-gi-oh? Basically the same thing when you think about it.

I'v always viewed 40k's grimdarkness as comical in it's extremes, though not necessarily nihilistic. Does what we do here and now mean less because of the sun eventually expanding or the heat death of the universe? or because in X amount of time it becomes hilariously unlikely that we don't get by a meteor and wiped out? No of course not, the journey and the people we meet along the way is what matters. The end is, and always has been, kind of irrelevant to me. Reading about why the Imperium is dying is just a backdrop and added context to the joy and pain of the people around it, the war being a loss is just a forgone conclusion that adds to the people fighting against it's destruction and fighting for the end to come faster.

Hey, we only have a setting because Chaos won that book. They did us a favour. Though Chaos eternally shafts itself because it can't hold together for long anyway, so any time they win anything at all, I always think "Yeah, we'll see well how you're doing five minutes after this, Red Team." The funny part is because of the fact Chaos is in everything and fighting it is like fighting your own shadow, I pretty much have the same reaction with the Blue Team. Probably why I like Slaanesh so much, the plots where it eventually corrupts the best of the best the Imperium has to offer and makes the whole thing fall down like a house of cards are often my favorite.

Cool...which book? Lucius is an elite CSM duelist...but he's far below primarch level. Sharrowkyn straight up bested him. His "weight class" would be other elite SM and CSM champions. I personally think Sigismund would have thrashed him. His extreme arrogance is also a very real weakness capable of being exploited. He's definitely below Primarch level just by virtue of the fact Abaddon is below Primarch level, yes he beats Horus, but only with a metric ton of backup. Also 'In Wolfs Clothing' is the short story where he squares off against Wulfen, on re-examining the passage he strangles the Wulfen half to death then stabs a sword through it's head, not quite as metal but still. Agreed on Sigismund but that's not saying much, Sigismunds just straight up the best personal combatant in the Legions and would thrash about anyone at the Sieges. It's worth noting that 40k Lucius is quite a different beast from Horus Heresy Lucius though, in much the same way Abaddon becomes waaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful over the Long War. It's actually not at all impossible that Sigismund cuts him down during the Siege. Sigismund would take no satisfaction, and Lucius would likely come back through an artificer that took pride in crafting or maintaining the Black Sword. I don't think it would be incredibly one-sided, either. My money is still that, if he kills anyone, he probably kills Khârn, it would be...fitting.

Recall he then beat Loken in a rematch, he's also strangled a wulfen to death and beaten an Emperor's Champion in single combat, he's even had an extended combat where he was only defeated after seven days and seven nights while taking on an Iron Hands champion and all of his honor guard. Lucius's mediocrity as a combatant is exaggerated, largely by people viewing his formative years.

I mean there's his arrogance and ego, but there's also his disillusionment in the Third and to a degree Slaanesh in his quest for sensation, his sort of 'tired old rockstar' status where he's killed about everything at this point and is just seeking out ways to feel again, his internal balance between going to Slaanesh but staying away from corruption just enough to avoid being a blood crazed zerker and how that internal balancing act has driven him insane. Plus, he's genuinely not stupid, I loved his intentional use of his death defying power in In Wolf's Clothing to stage a massive ambush from the inside of the ship. Personally of the Four, he's the second most well written to me after Ahirman, above Khârn who was interesting and then became boring, and way above Typhus who is the worst by virtue of the fact that there is not enough written about him to be interesting. Indeed. The main issue with Lucius by that point is that the next real challenge to get him some joy - is to duel/kill at least a Primarch and in the best case one of the Universe Gods. Lucius is a sensational hedonist who will always be seeking more - and will never get it, cause he can't kill Primarch or a God. He can't be compared with Khârn or Typhus. The last 2 are servants of their Gods. They get 'joy' from doing their deities job. That's the trick really, it's the same reason Sigismund is not going to fight any big names at the Siege of Terra. They are both such stupidly good duelists that by rights they should kill the character(And even worse, Lucius has a clause that always ensures a mutual kill even if you're a bloody Necron), but won't, so they would have to put together some convoluted reason for why the character would live.

I mean there's his arrogance and ego, but there's also his disillusionment in the Third and to a degree Slaanesh in his quest for sensation, his sort of 'tired old rockstar' status where he's killed about everything at this point and is just seeking out ways to feel again, his internal balance between going to Slaanesh but staying away from corruption just enough to avoid being a blood crazed zerker and how that internal balancing act has driven him insane. Plus, he's genuinely not stupid, I loved his intentional use of his death defying power in In Wolf's Clothing to stage a massive ambush from the inside of the ship. Personally of the Four, he's the second most well written to me after Ahirman, above Khârn who was interesting and then became boring, and way above Typhus who is the worst by virtue of the fact that there is not enough written about him to be interesting.

Horus was the best Primarch hands down, not the answer I like but it is what it is.

So,,,,you want not Sanguinius? :P Like, he's both of those things simultaneously, severing one just creates either a slightly cooler Corvus Corax or Angron lite.

Does the fact a character cries have any impact on their strength? I mean in my view the most emotional characters in the Horus Heresy have always been some of the worst to face as well, certainly if the Eternity Gate is any indication.

I do feel like with some of the groups I named, like Raven Guard, a critical problem was just representation and having a wide spread of authors to fallback on. It's somewhat irritating to be candid, I feel like the Horus Heresy is ending just when the universe started to open up to me, I was reaching I point where I could at least appreciate aspects of every faction as things sped up, where my major issue before was always that some Legions were so themetaically weak or underdeveloped(And in one case badly mishandled.) that I couldn't latch onto them. Maybe we'll get something in the scouring , hopefully.

What do you all think about the Legion representation? or even the factional representation for that matter? Which is not to say who won or lost the most, but in terms of writing quality, here's some of my super condensed thoughts. Custodes are interesting in what little we see of them, Master of Mankind made both them and the Sisters of Silence fascinating. The Officio Assassinorium I liked quite a lot in Nemesis despite a few hiccups, I tend to think working at a Eversors Cryotank facility is probably the worst job in the galaxy because of that. The Death Guard were shown....poorly, I think of the Horus Heresy they probably got one of the worst setups and explanations, we're only getting clarity now that it's all almost over, the best that can be said is they had good representation in Path of Heaven. Night Lords were also badly handled in my opinion, they started out good but as time went on it got worse and worse. Pharos and Angels of Caliban were absolute dreck, and the inclusion of the Legion and their Primarch in those books did them no favors. Talked about the Third Legion to death, worst book we got was Reflection Crack'd, and it ain't even that bad. Space Wolves got superb writing, high marks all around in terms of my interest in both the Legion and Russ, the latter of which has become a very complex and developed character. The Thousand Sons are also very well written just by proximity, with their worst stuff being early Heresy when all the Legions were suffering to get solid ground. Sons of Horus were also shown poorly, both in and out of novels in my opinion, they are supposed to be the best Legion with the best Primarch but they come off less as tactical geniuses and more as overrated glory hounds, it's....bad, it's been really bad, and at some point they need someone to get into the guts of this Legion and rework their depictions. White Scars are rad, the Khan is rad, Path of Heaven was really rad, ain't got much more to add over that. World Eaters were complex but nuanced. Savage and deadly fighters who....lost a whole lot, showing how Khorne didn't change them for the better without making them pathetic. Alpha Legion was.....argh, meme team kills me in everything that isn't Legion and Preatorian of Dorn, ironically because Legion did it's depiction a little too well and everything after feels like an imperfect simulacrum. Iron Hands, Ferrus Manus is cool but...honestly... I can't pinpoint any personality or kick to the Legion, nothing about them stuck with me. Imperial Fists are awesome...mainly because this isn't the scouring and all their interesting characters aren't in second founding chapters yet. Blood Angels are kind of mixed bag as far as the Legion goes, but Sanguinious is so stupidly awesome it's kind of hard to really notice, im not sure if their Primarch eclipsing them that much is good or bad, if only because Sangy was always going to be awesome no matter what you did with him so might as well go whole hog. Dark Angels suffer in the writing department across the board, their story seems convoluted and many times it veers into just pure schlock for me, but Lion El Johnson is well developed and I like how he's written. Ultramarines and Roboute feel like real big winners here, coming out of it with a whole lot more nuance and character depth, Roboute certainly is one of my most enjoyable characters right now. Salamanders were 'okay' to badly written for me, though my friends enjoy some of Kymes work with them. I...painfully rolled my eyes when I saw a book named Deathfire, it's a petty and shallow reason to have a negative impression just off that, but first impressions make a world to people and many of the Salamanders books make bad ones. Word Bearers are...okay? okay to good, no complaints, no outstanding remarks either though. Raven Guard are...ugh. Some people think I despise that Legion for Sharrowkyn and that's plainly untrue, Sharrowkyn didn't ruin the Horus Heresy for me, Deliverance Lost did! Now excuse me while I go fetch some Pizza Rolls.

Saw this comment way late and thought i'd respond to it, I don't think any of those three things are just about apocalyptic scale events at all, if they were i'd probably toss them out the window as literary trash because the nonstop 'A million is a statistic' mentality would make it impossible for me to get attached to anything or anyone. How 'big' an event is is irrelevant, what matters is characterization, style, and structure. DoW could take place on a ridiculously massive scale and it wouldn't stop me from being incredibly bored with all it's literary tie ins, if not outright offended for wasting my time. And that all kind of highlights my problem here. Cario, Konenos, Eidolon, and Varda might of been individually fleshed but I never got the impression anyone but Varda and Eidolon were 'full of life' because we never got a massive focus on any of them individually. Thus the advantage of short stories, Chirugeon and Perfection were about single people, were more condensed, and not necessarily more detailed as of course their smaller pieces but more personality could be crammed into Chuirurgeon then I could get out of Cairos scenes. That isn't to say Wraight should of focused in on them...ultimately Path of Heaven is a White Scars book after all, but that didn't stop me from liking the other depictions more.

Oh I totally understand that, it was also what B1soul was getting at, I simply did not process it as such and then Caius responded and most of my stuff was directed over at that, apologies if it seemed otherwise.