Feral_80

At my game club we are running a pretty basic Leviathan campaign: 2 factions (Imperium vs 'bad' guys) over three phases, tot. 8 players. Things are working quite ok, 2 factions is much easier to accommodate and balance than 3 factions (which we used in an earlier campaign) because essentially any side/player can play as many games as they like with no need to further balance the overall thing. But one thing is not working very well: one faction is trampling the other one! Reasons aside, Imperium just won phase 1 and seems to be in a very good spot for phase 2 as well. Although everything will be decided in phase 3 because of how we assign campaign VPs, this does not help keeping the campaign interesting. Leviathan blessings do not seem to help that much either for those players who scored less XPs. We are considering a more fluid approach to factions, by which I mean that stronger players might be able to switch faction, even temporarily, facing their (former) allies and making things more interesting overall. But in order to do that, we should devise some system to structure and regulate these side changes. E.g., introducing some form of in-game currency to 'hire' a player? Introduce a mechanism aimed at switching sides automatically once one side scores too many victories over the other? And so on. Has anybody else experienced a similar situation, and possibly devised some solution? We'd like to keep things quite simple, so no more than 2 factions in any case. But we need to introduce some balancing mechanism for the sake of the narrative and pleasure of the game. Thanks for your contribution.

That would indeed be a good idea, but sadly I only have 4 Armigers, 4 Questoris, and 1 Dominus. I know I'd have to make some changes, but I'll wait for the codex as I do not want to fall once more into GW's trap of completely changing once again the way the army works.

Cheers! Of course everybody will know I'll be bringing Knights. They are actually happy about it, because it's a different army from any other, they look great on the tabletop (and they are probably quite weak, or at least I have very little experience with them this edition). @Focslain thank you for the advice, I'll consider the Unyielding paragon enhancement as I have just 5 spare pts left. There is no way I'll ever manage to fit a Valiant in this crusade, I just hope that durability will be as useful as the mobility of the Mysterious knight for the Gallant. I'll certainly take the Striding Behemoth if we play Leviathan (but we may wait for the new Crusade book before deciding). However, I am quite sure the Titan's bane upgrade is unavailable to Knights, as it is part of the tree reserved to infantry and mounted units...

It is probably a not very good idea, but I've decided to bring IK to a crusade campaign at my game club. The good thing is that it may work well eg with weapon enhancements. The bad is that, well, various missions may be hard to nearly impossible. But well, at least it should be fun. We are starting at 1000 but soon moving to 1500 pts, so I made this. I want to avoid named characters as they make no xp, and are no fun in a campaign. Not much to do here, but perhaps you have some suggestions?? I am undecided as to the various combinations of questoris and armigers, but these look quite balanced and funny. Paladin: warlord, mythic hero. Stubber, Chainsword, Ironstorm. 475 pts. Gallant: mysterious guardian. Meltagun, Ironstorm. 435 pts. 1x Warglaive. Meltagun. 150 pts 2x Helverins. Stubber. 300 pts Inquisitor (psyker). 55 pts Inq. Retinue: 4 henchmen, 1 servitor (mmelta), 1 mystic, 1 jokaero, 1 daemonhost. 80 pts Tot. 1495 pts. For the initial 1000 pts game I'll probably have to leave the Gallant and reduce the inquisitorial retinue.

After quite a number of games, I can say I'm enjoying DW more than I initially thought. Originally I was pretty pessimistic, and I still believe our KTs are garbage - with one exception. Obviously, our very small numbers due to all infantry being super-expensive remains an issue, which also means board control can be a huge problem. But overall the army works, it is fun and capable of winning. So far I've used my DW against a good variety of opponents, and with the exception of Orks (which seem quite OP to me these days) it has always performed very well. I must say, although I'd like to try one of the SM codex detachments, so far I'm sticking to the Black Spear TF because that's what we are, and I love a couple of its rules. I'd like to share a few thoughts on the index highlights at the moment, after we received a series of changes which are basically all nerfs (DW index update on SIA, some points raise, MW change, Marine codex out). Let me know if your mileage varies. DW rules and Black Spear Task Force: Mission tactics: 2 are good, Purgatus is often useless. Overall, they can turn 2 critical rounds into a game-changer, so ok. Stratagems: poor selection. Of our own 5, Teleportarium is great help and makes transports pretty much unnecessary. The other are quite poor, and all SIAs are massively limited by the general lack of AP to bolter weapons. In a few cases, Hellfire can save the day: I easily killed a C'Tan yesterday with it, but otherwise the monsters/infantry you really need to take down are too armoured to inflict serious damage. Enhancements: great. Thief of Secrets on a Gravis Cpt makes him a beast; ok it's not a finesse choice, not a strategic asset, but it is criminally low-priced and it's too fun to pass. Beacon could be good, but we have Teleportarium which is more flexible. The Tome of Ectoclades, which I expect to be changed quite soon, gives us the old Oath of Moment back for a turn, which is simply invaluable in the right circumstances. Characters: Watch Master: expensive, and not so killy. However, he's fantastic as a support leader, and I now never leave home without him. He's ideal to lead a Proteus KT, making it hugely more mobile and threatening. I'm often able to pull out a turn 1 charge with such a unit, and it hurts a lot. Well of course it does, it's almost a 500pt-unit, but it repays itself quite quickly. His Watch Master ability is now less important, but it can still mess up with the dice reroll stratagem which is ok. DW Units: Veterans: they are expensive, but they are surprisingly shooty for their points and decently durable. 5-man squad with 2 infernus hb, 2 shields, and a sarge is my choice. They are very flexible as they can camp or move, they can be quite nasty in overwatch vs pesky small units, and in the end they always do or kill something. And if you play vs Xeno, they get even better for 'free'. Proteus KT: the only one worth taking, led by a Watch Master (above). I always take 3 vets with frag cannon, 2 with shield, 3 termies with cyclone, 1 termy with hammer+shield, 1 bike. This unit hits on 2+ pretty all the time, because once they're done with their target there is usually no target left at all. With the OoM-like from the Tome they can even seriously hurt vehicles/monsters reliably, with 6 krak missiles, or absolutely devastate anything else. And they hurt in melee too. Decently durable with majority T5, various 4++ and various 2+, but not *so* durable after all and vulnerable to blasts. This is their weak point. But still a wonderful unit, worth its monstrous pts cost. Veteran bikers: destined to fade away. For the moment, they are decent for their price and they remain our most convenient way to steal an objective or action. Pretty much useless for anything else, except vs a squad of grots. Non-DW units: Aggressors: unsurprisingly, I always find place for 6 of these led by the terrifying Aggressor Captain with fist, relic chainsword, and Thief of Secrets. They rarely disappoint, he never does. Gladiator Lancer and Ballistus Dreadnought: standard choice, I tend to take these two together. One is mandatory. Storm Speeder Thunderstrike: if I expect a lot of big stuff, this usually adds to my anti-heavy compartment. It's support ability is great, and can make your whole army, with any weapon, wound a monster/vehicle on 5+ or better, which just makes Kraken SIA stratagem redundant and useless. It also means your whole army is a decent anti-heavy if you loose your realy heavy guns. Having at least a fast unit with fly is also great to jump on an objective if needed. Razorback: I have two and I like to use them sometimes, obviously with lasers to partially reinforce my anti-heavy. Particularly good to hold a 5-man Veteran squad and grant it full rerolls - mini, custom, old-style OoM which can surprise the opponent and help clear an objective. That's pretty much it. It's a shame 3 out of 4 KTs, and specifically all the 'Primaris' ones, are pretty much useless. Indomitor would be near-to-usable, but its horrible composition limits mean it is not particularly good at neither shooting nor melee, and that is not something we can afford at that price tag. So just to give an example, my last 1.500 pts list was the following. I included some new units (instead of more standard Veterans/Bikes/Razorback etc.) just to try them, and they did ok. I tabled Necrons at turn 5. These look like a bunch of guys really, but I liked the 3 characters + 3 infantry + 3 vehicles geometry. Watch Master (WL) + 10-man Proteus KT as above. Aggressor Cpt with Thief of Secrets + 6 Aggressors (bolt/grenade) as above. Captain with Tome + Company Heroes. Brutalis Dread Gladiator Lancer Storm Speeder Thuderstrike

By the way, here is my Leontus-count-as, scratch-built from mostly GW parts. I'll make a suitable base and then try to paint it properly.

I'm curious about your experience with plasma and melta. Both now seem good only vs small monsters/very heavy infantry, but not against real monsters and vehicles, which they wound on 5+. Even the Eradicators' full rerolls do not seem much at 1 shot each. Were you really able to take out big stuff with just these? About captain's free stratagems: it's handy, but I see it more than an extra. Sometimes his unit does not really need a stratagem, so you use it as a bonus. Most of the time, my problem was not having enough CPs to use on other units which really needed some help...

I might have posted in the wrong topic, but here are some thoughts after a test match: please excuse the cross-posting. TLDR: it works, but not that well it seems.

I played a test match yesterday with a friend, 2000k DW vs Tyranids. Since as DW I used to rely on melta/melee in 9th, I found my anti-heavy stuff severely lacking. Many Tyranid monsters are now horribly (I would say exceedingly) tough, and they just would not die, or at least not fast enough. On the other hand, their anti-heavy is really good and hits hard, so the little and light vehicles I had did not last. The good: Captain in Gravis with Thief of secrets is a beast. 5-man DW Vets team are really good brawlers for their cost, esp. vs Xeno of course. And they still have <Kill Team> keyword, so they can benefit the most from SIA strats...not that this matters much, sadly. We (Marines in general) have many good anti-light/infantry options. Oath of moment is a life-saver. DW Terminator squads are nicely flexible and costed compared to normal terminator, they are fine as a standalone squad. The so-so: SIA strats are underwhelming. Even at their maximum effect, don't expect miracles. Also because of other issues - see KTs and CPs in the 'bad' list. Generally, DW strats seem usable, but not impressive. Mission Tactics are...okish? Decent boost for a couple of turns, but they won't really address our weaknesses. Let's call them a slight variation on doctrines, but with less interactions. With VVs having been weakened, and no access to Assault squads at all, (and thunder hammers being now garbage), any of us who used to rely on JP smash Captains should forget them. Can't say I will miss these, though. I really appreciate how the new overwatch stratagem works. I really do not like it that some armies have super-tough units armed with very powerful torrent weapons (Tyranid monsters!) that can easily create a 24" area of denial for any unit to enter. While we, on the other hand, have...flame aggressors and Infernus, none of which is really scary. We might be pushed to take a Watchmaster to make Overwatch cost 2CP to the enemy. But the problem is...Watchmasters seem overcosted and not particularly impressive in any other job. The bad: CP starvation, and no access to characters giving +1 CP/round (auto-takes in all armies that have one) is a real problem. On paper, many basic stratagems are good (grenades, tank shock, smoke screen)...but in practice, don't expect to use many of those at all, so do not rely on them. This imbalance among factions already seems to be a big issue to me, as basically some factions get double CPs. KTs are useless, overcosted and with weak abilities, and their members' interactions just do not work, largely because of combat-squadding being gone. Proteus is laughably priced; Fortis has little use (plasma is now silly) and loses the (good) basic Intercessor ability; Spectrus has no real synergies among its members. The only viable is Indomitor, whose cost and ability are fair: but the limit of 2 specially equipped troopers per type means it will not work well in any specialised role, especially melee. It's a mid-field, short-range firing squad and not-too-convinced brawler. Saddest point: as even basic Eradicators are now bad (melta is now silly too), our KT Eradicators are mostly garbage. Elaborating on the above, I had a 10-man Indomitor with an attached Captain in Gravis: what they did was chipping damage off monsters and helping him in melee by dying in his place. All in all, a 6-man full Aggressor squad might be preferable, or at least comparable, much harder in melee, and cheaper. Sad. I had assumed my Contemptors were still decent due to their ability; sadly, they are not: M 6" severely hampers them, and their only 2 weapon choices are garbage. Sadly, it is pretty clear which kind of Dreadnought we should take from now on. Most of the units I used are basic SM units: Outriders + Chaplain (not so good, but at least tough), Razorbacks (nice), Bladeguard with Justicar (but: our Beacon Angelis works wonders in this case), Sternguard Vets, Eliminators. They work, but they are not DW real stuff. We need to stock up on e.g. Gladiator Valiants for real anti-tank, I'm afraid. Overall, most DW flavour is gone.

Somebody in charge at GW ha serious issues with reality. A suggestion for 11th edition, GW ho about try doing these: cheers guys, here's all the rules and indexes in pdf. They are all beta. Please feel free to play, crunch, use and abuse them as much as you want: we'll release the official version in 3 months. In the meanwhile, please submit your feedback and any typo, loophole, and ambiguity you might find to the following contacts: we've hired a substantial team just to handle this playtest window in the best possible way. Many thanks for being an active part of the 40k community!

Ouch. Had a first glance at the munitorum field manual. Fixed pts means our incredibly varied and potentially expensive options seems to make most KT not worth it. Compare: DW Veterans: 100-200 pts = 5-10 models @ 20 pts per model Proteus KT (currently the worst of all): 165-330 pts = 5-10 models @ 33 pts per model The latter factors in that 5 of those models might be a mix of (jump pack Vanguard), Terminators and Bikes. But it basically forces us to do so, and without combat squadding I do not think it is really worth it. Fortis and Indomitor might be in a better situation. Compare their costs with regular Intercessors/H.Intercessors and they might still be worth it. But man, doex fixed pts cost hurt us badly.

I think that is an old prejudice by GW, Tank Commanders have always been restricted to Leman Russes. There were weird ways to circumvent this in 9th but honestly they were never handy and always felt the option to have non-LR commanders was allowed with reluctance. However, I do not see that as a big issue since personally I still like the weird, slightly goofy LR design over the Dorn. And all Baneblades are de facto unplayable on a table with standard terrain, you can't literally manoeuvre them anywhere. So let's keep our commanders in our LRs, they are still more than capable rules-wise. (Of course the Dorn has a tank commander miniature, but in the meaning of the vehicle's own commander: it's not like they are taking decisions holding a democratic vote inside that thing but there is no official miniature for a 'real' tank commander in the meaning of a squadron leader). As for Leontus: I agree, the miniature and concept are horrible. I made my own count-as: a little, scratchbuilt 4WD command vehicle with a driver, a bodyguard brawler, and an officer. As long as you use the correct base size, you can proxy Leontus with pretty much anything you like. Consider if this solution works for you.

Well Tank Commanders get BS 3+ with Leontus. Their special buff is hurting the enemy when they die, and the enemy wants them dead because they improve other tanks...seems like a good synergy to me. And a single TC can issue 2 orders via Enhancement (and, with limited use, stratagem). Ogryns, I don't know. May be good depending on cost, buy they look fragile and have poor leadership. I suspect 4+Chimera are not going to be cheap for what they do. Exterminator is good, and nicely buffs a nearby battlecannon's poor AP. Looks like a nice armoured spearhead to dislodge enemy from an objective.

Re: tanks I read a lot of nonsense. They are not bad at all, and they can get to BS 3+ via either Leontus or a Tank Commander. What's not to like? Russes do not all look equally interesting, but several certainly look very good: of course everything depends on points, but Exterminator, Demolisher, Executioner all look more than viable. I'd even consider the Vanquisher: buffed at BS 3+ it gets to shoot at 2+ (it has one of the few Heavy guns), and has in-built reroll to wounds. The basic stratagem can be used to reroll to hit, so even at just 1 shot it has decent chances to actually do something as its cannon hits really hard. There are a few losers (Priests, Ogryns? Not excited by Commissars either, but we'll see the points) and things to tweak. But overall the index looks very solid.

It's clearly written in each unit's datasheet: 'vanilla' characters can be attached according to the instructions provided for each unit/KT under 'Attached Unit'. E.g., Fortis KT can attach characters which can be attached to Intercessor Squads. Etc. etc.