ValourousHeart

That is fair. Personally I'm a little split on how weapons should be configured. On one hand, I've been playing Ravenwing for so long that I had to learn how to deal with my whatever my opponent brought with a very limited unit and weapon selection. On the other hand I like weapons to have a preferred target where they are most effective. We had this in previous editions, if I tried to just run Multi-meltas and Typhoon ML on my RW list I would get punished by the Ork player. Same issue if I just ran Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters. On top of that I think that there should be more parity between weapon options for units. More willingness to reconsider the stats and rules of weaker weapons, and not just points changes for the superior option. This one is trickier... at least for me to figure out. We have lots of stats to choose from, do we always need to start with Strength, Damage and AP. What about number of shots, or access to special rules, or flexibility on when critical hits or wounds occur. I think GW over corrected with armor. I'm not sure that armor needs both really hard to wound and lots of health, AOS gets by with just lots of wounds. But this feeds back into the current unwillingness to reconsider weapon stats leaving us with a few weapons that damage vehicles comically easy and other options that are pale reflections of their former glory.

Well it has been a minute since I last posted an update. Life has really kicked my butt over the last 2 years. I'm trying to paint more to see if that will help.

What do you mean? By the looks of it most of the Redemptor's weapons are better than the Invictor's with the exception of the fist. Which given the fact that the Invictor with its scout move is going to be in assault sooner, it makes sense to me that it would have the better CCW. The redemptor is likely not going to cross the board, and its fist is good enough to finish off anything that wasn't destroyed by its guns. Why would you want to have any unit have zero redeeming qualities?

That is were I am too. Spending all of my 40k time painting these days.

You inferred my statement to mean stupid, but I never implied that. I stated that they were short sighted... and nobody has refuted that yett. This is the internet, everything sticks around forever. So if you want to look at the way back machine and find all of the post where people where predicting that old school marines were going away for years before GW stopped production on them. Well that is what we call a self fulfilling prophecy. GW had no intention of dropping those old kits from production, but the community decided to start this pervasive rumor that GW would drop them. New people in the hobby took advice from the veteran players and didn't buy the older kits. But sure it is the fault of the players with 6 tactical squads, not buying more for why tactical squads are still available on GW's website. You should have picked an example of a unit that was actually discontinued. You must have not read my comment very closely before you replied. I never said that unit options had anything to do with ebay scalpers. I was providing a list of examples where what people say doesn't match with how they behave. People say that they like the customization of 40k models. Yet most players in the hobby when Dark Vengeance was released bought tons of those 3 push fit bikes to bulk up their RW because they were cheap on ebay. Their actions contradict their words. Same goes with how the community feels about scalpers. They complain that GW doesn't do anything effective to stop scalpers. But then they also buy products from scalpers. Again contradicting themselves. I'm not talking about resellers or brick and mortar stores. Scalpers and GW have been a topic of discussion recently in relation to the signed copies of one of the latest books, end and the death. Were you not aware of that controversy? Well we either disagree on this topic, or we aren't considering the same things. All through 8th the older kits moved at a similar rate as in 7th edition, in spite of primaris sales. But in 9th the sale of older kits took a steep decline, which would indicate that the rumor mill about GW discontinuing those kits finally hit critical mass. GW has had a standing policy for years that the age of the kit was irrelevant as long as it was still selling. New kits and old would hit the chopping block if sales dried up. So we told GW to stop making those kits when we stopped buying them. And then we have the CHS legacy. Any kit not in production can't be in the codex. "Bloat" is just code for "I didn't actually read the rules." In 8th and 9th, if the person had read the rules and stratagems before hand when they were drafting their list, and not done that at the last possible moment when they are wasting their opponent's only free afternoon this week, they would have discovered that their list only really had 5-6 stratagems that made sense to use. This whole thing is cyclical. We are essentially in 3rd edition again. Boring, flavorless armies, and streamlined rules to attract new players and their money to the hobby. Nobody is threatening anyone. This is business. It is rational, it has to make sense mathematically. And tactical marines still being for sale proves that. They are still around because people buy them. Land Speeders are no longer around because, despite the fact that people started to realize how good they were, not enough people were buying them. And there it is... so you are part of that small echo chamber of meta chasing tournament players. You are aware that the majority of players don't use tournament results to plan their warhammer purchases?

That isn't accurate. In fact GW has been working with a lot of different groups to get their sales model back to profitable. There are numerous components from logistics and raw materials, to the buying patterners of the customers that are all impacting costs and returns. For some reason there are some really short sighted people out there that thing if a kit sold for $50 before and now sells for $65 that GW is making $15 more profit over the profit they were already making on that kit. But the reality is that the $50 kit used to cost GW $25, and now costs GW $60. It amazes me how much people fail to see how well GW listens to us. But I guess the issue is that we claim to want one thing in these forums, but we spend our money on a different thing at the register. People sometimes complain about the lack of options in kits. But over the years Ebay sales of cheap mono-pose starter set lots have filled our collections. We hate that GW's ordering system makes it so easy for scalpers to snatch up most of the releases. But far to many of us are willing to support the scalpers by buying those items at ludicrous prices. And the best one is GW tells us they are going to keep the older lines going as long as they are selling. And the community organizes a boycott on buying those older kits. And then we are shocked when those kits get phased out.

Did I miss a rules leak for Asmodai?

Do you have any pictures you could share. I'm always interested in what new ideas the community has.

I've been playing pure Ravenwing since 3rd edition, and have become a little disenchanted since the news broke about speeders, bikes and attack bikes not being in the new codex. So until the new DA codex comes out I'd like to try something different with my Dark Angels. I think I wanna run a list with the Lion. I only play for fun, so it doesn't have to be tournament winning. Here is what I have. The Lion 12 Blade Guard 1 Blade Guard Capt 1 Blade Guard Lt 2 boxes of DW Knights (unassembled) 1 Phobos Capt 1 Phobos Lib 1 Phobos Lt 10 Infiltrators 3 Suppressors 6 Eliminators 2 boxes of Incursors 30 Reivers 1 Reiver Lt 1 Leviathan Lt 4 Invictors 1 Repulsor 1 Repulsor Exc 20 scouts 10 scout snipers 1 Land speeder storm 36 Bikes 7 attack bikes 6 outriders 3 invader ATVs 4 Typhoons 8 Tornados 2 Talonmasters 1 Bike Chaplain Sammy Jetbike 12 RWBK (with command models) 2 Nephilim 1 Dark Talon 1 Dark Shroud 2 Dreadnoughts I could pick up one of the starter sets. Also thinking of picking up the Brutalis Dreadnought. I also have some units that could be used as allies. All of the Assassins and several Imperial Knights. I could also muster some of the other agents of the imperium units. Looking for 1000 and 2000 point ideas.

I suspect that it will great depend upon whom you play against. If you play great friends who all bring interesting an unique meta defying lists, SS in your list will be dependent on if they fit the theme of your list. On the other hand, if you are playing against people that are chomping at the bit to tell their 4yo that Santa doesn't exist... Then yes only a noob would settle for a 96.8% survival rate when they could have 97% survival rate instead. This right here is why for the longest time a lot of people took Sammael on Jetbike instead of Speeder. Both were good, but the speeder was better at clearing chaff. The jetbike had that cool factor until Custodes got their jetbikes.

We just have to accept that elite vs hoard is never going to be Thermopylae on the table top. Either the elite is going to be statistically unbeatable by what ever randomizer we use. Or hoard will be impractical at scale. But that wasn't my point. I understand that I'm likely in the minority. But it seems as though there is a tendency to over use the high command. Why exactly does a Primarch need to be the one to change a light bulb on a remote relay station himself? Surely this is a task that can be delegated.

I meant exceedingly rare according to the fluff. Lore wise Dark Angels should only have a few Dark Shrouds, significantly less than the number of Tornados they have. I'm also looking forward to what GW comes out with for new Ravenwing options.

Check out the Horus Heresy section of the GW site. Marines have 4 different boxes of special and heavy weapon upgrades each for $47. Not sure how much work you want to put in. But it is a less expensive alternative, if you have a lot of extra bolter marines you don't plan to field.

Just to add on to what Cpt. Bannockburn and Karhedron have already said. In past editions we've had to reorganize our collections because something changed in how units were built. When I first got into the hobby my Sisters of Battle were 5 woman squads and if you added a special and heavy weapon the squad size increased to 7 models (unique for them). The next edition Sister of Battle squads were 10 woman, and special and heavy weapons replaced a model with a bolter, similar to how other armies built their units. Same thing with marines. We used to not get plasma cannons at all. And once we got plasma cannons, certain codices couldn't take them in tactical squads. Then everyone could. Squad sizes also changed. Who remembers when players would flood the board with 6 man, Lascannon, Plasma gun Tactical Squads? Who remembers the very next codex when we got locked to 5 or 10 marines per squad? It would be wise to treat this as just another edition where we need to reorganize our collections. But you should not get hung up on Primaris vs Oldschool Marines. Just build the units so they look mostly correct. Plasma = hellblaster