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Yes, I agree with Lunkhead here. Without a strong Reclusium, your chapter is on the very edge of becoming a Chaos warband. Actually, one of the ideas I was toying with was a newly-turned Chaos warband which still is made of the chunks of an almost-annihilated chapter, and so they would have a very un-Chaos look yet. The Genestealer cults gave me the idea. I envisioned a banner with the remains of their Chaplain or the defaced Chapter banner. These marines still don't know that they're veering ever closer to Chaos. I like the moral gray areas, there's a lot of contrast with the black-and-white view we've always had of Chaos as an absolute evil and the Emperor as the source of absolute good. With Chaos being an exageration (and later perversion) of the most common goals or strongest emotions in Mankind, this is very plausible (and logical; I expected more novels to treat this issue). Your chapter, though, is the other side of this; these Marines have not fallen... yet. ;) Just like Khorne is a satire of the honorable, noble warrior; Tzeentch is the perversion of the wise master, Nurgle is the caring doctor brought to the absurdist extreme of keeping a dying patient alive even if he's in extreme pain, and keeping his lovely bacteria alive as well, and Slaanesh is the perfectionist and the narcissist subverted... your chapter could be facing the temptations of the Runious Power without even knowing so. So yes, have a couple of cool chaplains with big armors and balls of steel.

This has been silent for a while now. Any developments?

I like it. I also have an Arthurian Chapter, but yours is more grounded.

The Sanguine Shields (Scutii Sanguini, in correct Latin, or Scuta Sanguis in faux GW Latin) sound like a cool chapter, but I also like the Iron Bloods name a lot.

I like the idea of them being a rag-tag band of outcast marines akin to the Fallen or the Damned, but not dead or supernatural. This might mean that they developed a myriad of iconography based on their original panoply, whatever it may be (reverse Legion Chapters, if you will).

From what I'd understood, the Grail was created to prevent the rift from opening, and the Grail Wardens were created to protect it. To complete this task, the chapters that took part in the Red Crusade each send one squad (or ten marines). I don't see why the other participants of the Grail Wardens would let the Crimson Knights forget ? I think the Red Crusade and the Rift are created after the third founding (so after 001.M32). I think it wouldn't be later than M33. I really don't think the Eldar would leave the planet to be defended by the Space Marines, I prefer your former idea of the planet already being abandoned. (Also, be careful of using the term "fallen" when talking about marines, it can be mistaken as "Fallen Dark Angels") see before quote If the Crimson Knights were part of the invocation that closed the rift with the Grail, then they are blood oathed to take part in the Grail Wardens ? Why would the discovery of their true ascent make it clear they were part of the Grail Wardens ? 1- The whole "different name" thing was to make it more or less believable that the other Grail Wardens didn't tip them on their origin, but that may be nonsense. 2- Abandoned it is. A maiden world "polluted" by people. 3 and 4- They are blood bound, yes. The idea was that they had forgotten, and that the quest for their origin would lead them to this revelation. This only works if their current homeworld is far from the Grail Abyss and have had little contact with the other Grail Wardens. 4- Because it would make them understand the circumstances of their near destruction during the closing of the Rift, therefore making it known to them that they are Grail Wardens. Right now, they don't know why they ended in Albion or what's their ancestry before M36 (although this millennium can be changed). Also, they lost some of their genealogies and the oldest dreadnoughts in the biochemical attack that destroyed most of their homeworld equipment in M39. This means that the arc about their origin ends whenever they join the Wardens in a Red Crusade to recover the Grail, which, if I got it right, had been stolen or lost in a corrupt world, and that's why the Grail Wardens have assembled again? Sorry if I got some things wrong, there was a lot of material here and there in the thread.

Sorry for the time this has taken! My take on the Crimson Knights is evolving, thanks to your observations and input. I hit a rock with the Chapter's origin, but this thread made it easier. It also got me thinking about what writers do when they hit a wall: they turn their problem into a solution. In my case, the Chapter's origin was giving me a headache. Now it's the Chapter's headache! +++ The Knights' homeworld of Albion is located in the Galactic Fringe, far from most civilised lands and almost outside the reach of the Astronomican. So, this means: 1- The Knights may not remember they were part of the Grail Wardens due to some cataclysm or disaster, maybe the same one that occured when the Wardens tried to close the Rift. Maybe they suffered greatly at the hands of the traitors, maybe they lost most of their genetic material and the Chapter was almost discontinued. This would fit nicely with the Grail fluff. When was the Rift created? Just to know how old do the Knights think their Chapter is. 2- The old Chapter's remains travel to Albion, a feudal world, where they are treated as messiahs by the local population. Here we can insert the Eldar menace, but that has nothing to do with the Grail. Still, it's interesting that the Eldar decide, after a while fighting the fallen Marines, that it's better to leave them in Albion and use them as a shield to whatever they're savegarding beneath the surface of the planet. 3- The Knights were called otherwise before, maybe Swords Observant? Working title. 4- The Knights are invited (or ask?) to become part of the Grail Wardens given their proximity to the Grail Abyss (Albion is a fringe world, it doesn't matter which frige as of now). 5- The discovery of their origin (the Imperial Fists) also makes it evident that they were a part of the Warden order. 6- What remains to be considered is what to do with the Grail itself, since it seems it's a real object. Maybe they have gotten a peak and seen it's not the real Grail they're after? +++ What do you think?

Yeah, sorry, I definitely want to keep my chapter morphing theme, and the fact that they resist the temptation... Oooops, and there I was going to spoil my own story ! Solution for the Crimson Knights ? I was just wondering about a simpler way of doing this, but without pushing out Cesar's Imperial Fists successors, and I think I've found it, as long as he's in agreement: we could simply say that everyone believed his chapter were Blood Angels successors, and that they had managed to find a cure (possibly because his members had drunk from the grail), but then, much later on, it was discovered that there had been a mix up, much like the Soul Drinkers were believed to be Imperial Fists successors, but then it was found that they weren't (and it just seems so obvious that they are blood angels successors...) After millenia of fighting side by side, the Crimson Knights don't want to betray the chapters they believed were brothers, so they pinkyswear they won't say anything, and continue the search... How does that sound ? Common Ancestor ? Could all our chapters have a common ancestor, who were charged with guarding the Grail (secret task) - the Grail Wardens. They are then destroyed, by Slaaneshi/Eldar, and so the Grail is stolen and most documentation about it lost to the mists of time. However, their genestocks on Mars were incredibly extensive (for some as yet unknown reason ?). One survivor escapes, but he is mortally wounded and his memories are scattered (he could have been tortured, and his mind is now broken for instance). Because of the very high number of geneseed, and its apparent purity, the High Lords of Terra decree that three/four chapters will be created from this geneseed. Years after their founding, each (or simply one) of these chapters is visited by the mad space marine, who tells them of this "Grail" and how it was their ancestor's duty to guard over it. Since the ancestor chapter is no more, they are honour bound to search for it and restore it. The successors are inclined to ignore him, but through jiggery pokery, they find that he is exempt from the red thirst or the black rage, even though he is obviously a Scion of Sanginius. Because of this, the successors get together, and decide to create an order that will be the spiritual successor to the Grail Wardens. Over time, some chapters leave, create new successors, or turn rogue, etc. Also, some of the chapters have this special quest used to manipulate them. This doesn't necessarily answer all of Arkangilos's questions, but it could answer some. As he says, there is not necessarily much reason for the different chapters to work too much together on this, so I'd see it more as a select few from each chapter that pledge themselves and go on quests on their own (but sharing all their findings with their colleagues). As soon as they find what they think is a good clue, but there are pesky enemies on the way, they can call to the closest chapter of the Alliance to help them. These few decide to go on the quest because they believe they can cure all of the sons of Sanguinius, for the sheer nobility of it all, for personal glory... Whichever is pertinent to them. I think this format would allow us to link all our chapters together coherently, but give us enough leeway to be free to do what we want in each chapter. What do you guys think ? I like this. For three reasons: 1- It makes my Chapter's origin more mysterious, and it becomes an integral part of the Chapter: the quest for their origin. The genetic genealogists have a crisis of faith but after a while they get on again with their work, reworking genetic parenthood and trying to link the Chapter's first original heroes to Dorn instead of Sanguinius. This can also be a good link with the Lady of the Lake, who is probably the only one who remembers the reality of the Chaper's origin. 2- It can explain some of their divergences from the Codex. 3- It makes it easier to link the Chapters together in their search for the Grail. *** If none of these solutions work out, I have another Chapter, a Blood Angel successor I made when the BA recieved new cool minis: the Blood Dragons (*working title*, really), wich are based on Dracula lore. Their first Master was Bela Dracul, and were proud of having mastered their Red Thirst to the point of having developed a Battle Meditation technique where all the rage entrapped during the days and weeks of meditation and containment was left off in a spectacular communal battlecry. They were savages on the battlefield, but decent monks outside of it, until they finally exploded in a storm of Black Rage that drove half the Chapter mad during the War of the Commodork's Hat. While in battle, half the Chatper's marines began tearing the Orks apart viciously, and then they turned on everything else. So maybe these Blood Dragons can work as a substitute?

It's best, then, if we leave the nature of the Grail unexplained, "Codex: Necrons" style. The Lady of the Lake in Albion points my Knights into the direction she wants them to look at, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an Eldar artifact. If could be an even older device, Necron or older in nature. Kind of like the Pharos in Calth, which if I remember correctly, was older than the Eldar and, supposedly, attracted the Tyrannids towards Macragge. Old prophecies and chapter myths talk about the Grail and its abilities, and signs of its existence have been found in several worlds (which also would explain why are there several worlds with similar Arthurian-themed cultures). These different Chapters have stumbled upon them at various points of their history (foundation or otherwise) and taken to heart their meaning, interpreted in various ways, etc. I think my own is the only Chapter that's not a scion of Sanguinius, which makes the coherence of the idea a bit flimsy, but maybe we can bring this into the story too. Since my Chapter is not familiar with the whole idea of Sanguinius' Blood and the Chalices of the Blood Angels, it's understandable that they have developed their own ideas and interpretations on the meaning of the Grail, much more metaphorical, also skewed by the occasional oracles from the Lady of the Lake, who has her own agenda. I can imagine the Chapters first meeting and the discussions about whose myth is the correct one.

This is so cool! The B&C painted I've been using was nice, but your allows for a huge array of customization. If you add Black Templar templates, you'll make my year! :D Thanks for your work!