Cèsar de Quart

I hadn't thought about that. The Khan does make sense as a Slaanesh devotee. As for the rift between Custodians and Astartes, and the rumour that the Emperor had planned to do with the Marines the same thing he did with the Thunder Warriors, it's a great pretext for having a plausible reason for some of our-Loyalists to turn. The our-Traitors may not have the same qualms about it. We know through Ibram Ghreer that the War Hounds didn't think they'd survive the Great Crusade, and we know that Perturabo was bitter, cold and paranoid but trusted the Emperor completely at first. We know that Fulgrim was also a perfect son, driven by the demon blade (or, even, driven by Horus), and we know that Horus, among other things, was tricked into having a job interview with the Big Four while he was ill on Davin. I think Angron or Magnus could be redeemed or kept from falling (take his Butcher's Nails away from the first, temper the arrogance of the second), and even Lorgar, despite being reprimanded, could have persevered in his religious doctrine once the Emperor was interred on the Golden Throne, you just need to tone the Monarchia incident down (what the Emperor did on Monarchia was... too much. Sometimes it does beg the question "did the Emperor really push the Heresy into happening with his absolute approach to loyalty, compliance and morals?"). Maybe the one being reprimanded could be Guilliman. He gets greedy with his empire, doesn't really want to give his 500 world entirely to the Emperor, and when denied the post of Warmaster, he asks to rule the Segmentum Ultima. Maybe the Monarchia incident could be turned on its head, with the Word Bearers coming behind the Emperor to Macragge, only to witness the Emperor humiliating Guilliman for trying to build a realm in his own image and through his own vision, not the Emperor's... with the Word Bearers or the World Eaters storming Macragge moments later. It would be a very different place, a Galaxy with a warp wound on Ultramar, or maybe Macragge itself becomes the new Monarchia. I'm just brainstorming here, thanks for all the good advice.

Thanks, a lot of valid information here. Vulkan - Yeah, as I said, I still don't know what to do with him. He may have been a warlord, but the actions of many Salamanders in novels during and after the HH show a level of care for human life that other Primarchs simply didn't show. Or maybe pre-HH Imperium was a better place. I do remember that when in Davin, the Sons of Horus caused some egregious collateral damage and that was much talked about. Corax - Well, if the "regrow my legion" doesn't work because of the timeline, I'm sure something else can be found. Corax was troubled and paranoid, traits which could be bolstered. Magnus - He made a pact with Tzeentch without understanding what it really entailed, that's true, but if anything, Magnus' example proves that other Primarchs also can fall, because Magnus' intentions were pure. His onlt fault was arrogance. Russ - The capture of Magnus was authorised by Terra, but the orders were subverted by Horus. Valdor and the others went with him to apprehend Magnus, not to destroy Prospero. Russ didn't really show any remorse for it. But ok, maybe I overplayed his contrarian streak, just like the Khan's. Dorn - I think Dorn is too thick-headed, and maybe even too obtuse, to accept other points of view. I know this borders on caricature, but big people, big emotions. How would you do it, if you had to?

Well, this isn't alt-history, where the variables are literally in the millions and abstraction is required. The HH is already fiction, and a very weird series at that, a loose aggregation of different authors following a couple common threads but often blind to what the others are doing until the next book drops and they need to rethink their own plans. I remember Dan Abnett saying something on these lines a while back in an interview. So, talking alt-Heresy is not, well, heresy. It's not that difficult either. All the Primarchs are set in stone, but their past and circumstances can change. First, I'll say that some of the things you describe are broad descriptions of the Primarchs, but not necessarily true to what we've seen in the novels. Leman Russ was not engineered to be a good doggo, in fact he often disobeyed the Emperor, or went on and had a hunt without his orders. His attach on the World Eaters had no sanction. His attack on Prospero had no sanction, and he was, in fact, reprimended for that. Russ was a very loose cannon. He was loyal, in his own way, but loyalty can be tested, and it can fail. You only need bend Russ' loyalty enough that it breaks. I find it a fun exercise. Why not have Russ suffer like Magnus? Russ sends the Wolves to discipline someone, say the Word Bearers of the Tousand Sons, without sanction, and the damage they cause is so great, that the Emperor unleashes the World Eaters, the Wolf loses to Angron and is captured. He feels betrayed. A promise is made, a bargain struck, Russ escapes the World Eaters barge leaving blood and skulls behind, never to look back. These Chaos Wolves are not your Butcher Nailed berserkers, they're honour-bound warriors who will not fight inferior foes (not usually) and who have a code. Even if they, then, eat the dead and become wolfmen every full moon. Sanguinius is pure, sure. So was Horus at the beginning. Can you imagine Sanguinius in a situation in which he would have to choose between his own soul and that of his whole Legion? What would he choose? I think Sanguinius would sacrifice his own virtue for the sake of his Angels if there was no other choice. I agree with you in regards with Vulkan and Dorn, but Roboute Guilliman is proud, he's full of himself. His ideals are that of an ordered, perfect society, and his ambition is great. These feelings, Tzeentch can subvert. Of these emotions, ambition and pride, Tzeentch feeds. To such individuals, Tzeentch offers great rewards, in subtle ways. And the society Roboute wants to build doesnt' necessarily have to be chaotic, even once he's turned. That's what I like about Chaos: it's subtle, it plays with the heights and lows of people. It's not just skulls on spiked and human skin as an overcoat (why, Fabius? You're a scientist, why do you feel the need to wear a lab coat made of human skin?) As for Jonson, I think we can take the Lorgar route with him. If his base personality shows too much strength to be turned, why not force it upon him? Crack him as a child and make the Order that raises him be a Chaos cult, who see the divine child as a Godsent messiah of some sort. A bit lazy, I'll admit, but not impossible to assume. As for making the traitor primarchs good, that's even easier (kinda showing that you need only a bad circumstance in your past and a serie of dominos set the right way to send a Primarch down the way of Chaos): Want to make Angron not-horrible? Make him fight his Spartacus-like rebellion on Nuceria to a successful point, or have the Emperor descend on Nuceria on the eve of battle with the World Eater Legion, to maximise loving adoration towards Father, or straight up have him be teleported before he can have the Butcher's Nails implanted. That's arguably one of the main reasons Angron turned to Chaos, a cybernetic implant. Wanna have a level-headed Perturabo? He'll never not be a cold, calculating bastard, but he won't throw his Father's dreams away. At some point he felt he belonged, after all. Magnus the Red turned because of a misunderstanding. Tweak things a little and this is butterflied away. Yes, but the very first instance of the Red Thirst impacting the Blood Angels occurred while Sanguinius was still alive, during the Battle of Signus Prime. The Bloodthirster Ka'Bandha cast Sanguinius down and slaughtered a great number of Blood Angels, which awoke a fury and hatred in the Blood Angels Legion that drove nearly all of the Astartes (minus some psykers, I believe) them to temporary madness. I think that if Sanguinius had died of his wounds then and there, the entire Legion may well have fallen to Khorne. Kyriss the Perverse was also present during the battle, and he attempted to sway Sanguinius to Chaos (I would assume with the goal of bringing him to the worship of Slaanesh, though it's possible he just wanted to forge a new champion of Chaos Undivided). He failed, and the Blood Angels narrowly escaped falling to the darkness within themselves. I don't think Sanguinius would ever have fallen to Chaos, his selflessness and connection to the Emperor made him stronger than some of his brothers. Without him, especially given the events that took place in the Signus system, I think his Legion as a unit is an entirely different story. As an aside, I appreciate how BL has made an effort to flesh out the followers of Chaos more in recent releases. With texts like Khârn: Eater of Worlds, the Night Lords trilogy, and The Lords of Silence, you get good glimpses into Chaos factions that don't fully conform to the stereotypes of the setting. * Edit: And the Ahriman trilogy! I haven't read those, I'll have to get my hands on them. I'm actually very attracted to the World Eaters, one of the reasons I started this is because I wanted to have loyalist World Eaters, a stoic, honourbound, shaolin monk-like Chapter that values human life because of Angron's experiences as, well, Spartacus. And if I'm not mistaken, Sanguinius was ready to accept the Kryss' bargain, but Meros sacrificed himself instead. I'd say it's not a bad start.

Thanks for the kind words! Wasn't the Black Rage a psychic reaction to the death of Sanguinius? I may be quoting old lore here, but I'm quite sure it has been stated several times. I did consider Khorne, but I chose Slaanesh because of aesthetics, first, and because Khorne fits better, I think, with the Wolves than the Angels. To me, Sanguinius' personal quest is to cure the Angels of the Red Thirst. The Angels are passionate and fierce, but "purging" the gene-seed of flaws, as Slaanesh might offer, could turn their rage into a thirst for self-aggrandisement. I still don't know how to make it work, in detail, though. Turning Sanguinius is as hard as turning Vulkan, but I think we can prey on his selflessness. Most Primarchs have a fatal flaw, and Sanguinius' was this. If he was put in a situation where the survival of the Angels was at stake, and he was offered a way out which involved his own betrayal, he may take it. Especially if he has already seen, in visions, the fate of the Imperium, and wants to prevent it. I prefer not to make him turn through a macguffin corrupting him, since there's no tension or emotion there. I regret a bit the way Horus was turned. He had all the personality traits and circumstances to really, voluntarilly, turn. But no, it had to be a dark ritual of some sorts, while he was on the verge of death. The main problem with Chaos in 40k is that it doesn't know what it wants to represent. Is it an evil, corrupting entity (or energy)? Is it the essence of entropy? Or is it, like some writers sometimes flirt with, the capacity to be yourself, regardless of morality or contraints, like some sort of magically-enhanced twisted Objectivist fantasy? When intelligent writers get the quill, Chaos is free will made manifest, and a substance or entity that promises and delivers on those promises, a path to fulfill your potential as an individual, and a way of bolstering it. It can be used for good, for bad, for whatever you want, but it will mean you abandon your ties to others, there can only be you in the Eightfold Path. At the same time, it's a divinity (or four) that corrupts and twists and deceives, a petty authority that plays with you (like you'd like to play with other human beings) and . Who would see they've been had, and keep going with it? I understand that, by that point, you're already too indebted to Chaos to turn back, but sometimes it does feel like one needs to be a tad dumb to fall into the clutches of Chaos. And when you look at the game, and the basic stories in the Codices or the rulebook, it seems like Chaos is just Evil, as you say. No asterisks, no additional complexity. I liked it when I saw that some heroes of Slaanesh in Fantasy, like Sigvald the Magnificent, looked like splendid human specimens, and not pulsating masses of tentacles. But it's a trend they haven't followed through very often. Khornate warriors are mindless berserkers, Tzeentch always fields feathered sorcerers... Nurgle is the only one which has a rich character to it, even if it hasn't translated well into the Death Guard.

One of the best things about the Horus Heresy is that, for the most past, the writers have ensured that you understand why all Primarchs fell to Chaos, giving off a sense of "anyone could be turned, given the right circumstances". Even the ones which turned because of the chaotic influence of an evil mcguffin (like Fulgrim) still had personality traits that the Chaos gods could exploit. Which means, the tables can be turned. Many have tried to give the good Primarchs a bad day, see how could they be turned, while the original traitors were not. Lately I've been considering what would a loyalist-traitor switch look like, but I've hit some barriers, and I'd like to see some opinions on the matter. I haven't read all the HH books, so I'm mostly looking for feedback, i.e. what's plausible versus what's absurd, in the opinion of the sages in this forum. +++ The current traitor legions have a daemon prince of Slaanesh (Fulgrim), a daemon prince of Khorne (Angron), a daemon prince of Tzeentch (Magnus) and one of Nurgle (Mortarion), as well as two of Chaos Undivided (Perturabo and Lorgar), one missing (Alpharius) and two dead (Curze and Horus) So, in keeping with the same structure, I've thought about what makes the most sense, and this is what I've come up with: SANGUINIUS - Daemon Prince of Slaanesh Many alternate heresies make him a prince of Khorne or Nugle. I think that (given the flamboyant nature of the Angels, their dark streak and their emphasis in martial prowess and self-control) Slaanesh, who preys on perfectionism and excess, is the god that makes the most sense for them. Sanguinius had spent decades looking for a cure to the Angels' gene-flaw, and I think Slaanesh could very well provide one, curing the gene-flaw by making them no longer feel ashamed of their vampirism. I imagine the Angels adorning their armour with delicate golden sculpture and sporting extravagant golden wings, while Sanguinius himself, scarred and battered after fighting loyal Horus, his wings broken, would seal his pact with Slaanesh by doning a golden mask (weeping blood, of course) and regrowing three pairs of peacock wings. LEMAN RUSS - Obviously Daemon Prince of Khorne Not just their love of battle and their sense of honour matches that of Khorne, but also their loose-cannon nature and the fact that Khorne is (or was) usually identified with hounds and dogs. The Wolves would become wolfman-like bloodletters, essentially. I imagine the Daemon Prince Russ as a giant wolfman, red skin and grey fur. Maybe his head is a wolf skull with flaming eyes? Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - JONSON, CORAX or the KHAN? Magnus was an obvious choice for Tzeentch, since he was a powerful sorcerer. When you consider that the Khan was also a psyker, you start to feel there can be something to go on there. At the same time, the Angels' obsession with secrets and the occult is prominent in their character (even if, for the most part, reflects their post-Heresy history). Corvus Corax, from his side, was obsessed with the dwindling numbers of his Legion. Tzeentch can be an interesting choice for him to follow up on, since he could offer a Rubric-like solution to Corax, while making a black-bird daemon Corax a possibility. Daemon Prince of Nurgle - FERRUS MANUS or CORAX? The connection between Nurgle and Mortarion was never, in my opinion, a big one. I always felt Mortarion's choice didn't stem from his own character but from the circumstances he was brought up with and the planet he landed on. With Ferrus Manus and Corax, things are different. While Ferrus Manus could be the Perturabo of this setting, a way for him to choose flesh over metal and use Nurgle to carry out this obsession is a possibility. At the same time, Corax could also fit Nurgle, since Nurgle could offer his help in curing his Legion and bolstering its numbers through regeneration and resistance to wounds. ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - Loyalist Most alternate heresy struggle with Guilliman. Either he leads the heresy in some of them or he dies early and never turns, or he goes rogue while empire-building. To me, the third option is a cop-out (entirely valid, sure, but come on...). Rather, I'd have Guilliman lead the Heresy. He is charismatic, headstrong, and his level-headedness can be roughened up with some ungratefulness from the side of the Emperor, some envy towards Horus (which the Lion also shared) and a restless desire to conquer and build a realm in his own image. The Gods show him the Imperium he'd see eventually in M41, and he loathes it. He tries to confront the Emperor but He evades the question, focusing rather on how could Roboute doubt him. Etc etc. Since he's the Horus of the scenario, he dies (not before killing the real Horus, who plays Sanguinius) at the final moment, aboard the Macragge's Honour. He never comes back. The Ultramarines were taken over by someone like Marius Gage or Aethon, and became sorrowful and fanatical in their rememberance of Guilliman. ALPHARIUS - Who knows what he's up to? I'd rather not change anything about him. He remains a "traitor". CURZE - Just as in the original HH, he went rogue, instead of falling to Chaos. I don't see a way to avoid it, the man was crazy. Let's keep him that way. DORN - Dead, loyalist. The genius of the Dornian Heresy was turning the tables on the Horus - Dorn dichotomy; the stubborn, square Dorn and the charismatic, valiant Horus, and make Dorn lead the Heresy. The problem is, you need Dorn to be as charismatic as Horus for this to work, and I don't think he can be. Therefore, I'd keep dorn a Loyalist, and the first casualty of the Heresy, dead by the hand of Sanguinius. VULKAN - Chaos Undivided A hard one to turn, considering he's the most loving and "normal" of the Primarchs, emotionally speaking. The only way I can see Vulkan turning is if the Iron Warriors or the Sons of Horus commit too much collateral damage on the population. Vulkan gets upset, Horus shuts him up because such is the nature of war, the ends justify the means, the Emperor refuses to see him because he's got Webway stuff to investigate, and resentment builds towards something he considers unfair. I'm not convinced about Vulkan, though. Tough one. Anyway, any constructive feedback will be appreciated. Thanks!

Hi there. I know this must have been the most discussed, if not the most tired, lore topic ever since that list first appeared with two names redacted (probably following the old "create depth by omitting rather than by overexplaining" school of worldbuilding, although it was also the famous "we did it so fans could create their own legions"). But I'm still curious, especially after all the HH novels. Because it's very obvious that back when the Horus Heresy was a mythological echo, the missing legions were just another mystery. Now, they're a VERY GLARING problem. It's even fun to see good Black Library writers try and tiptoe around the issue, and since it's likely GW doesn't know what's their real fate and every single one of them probably has his own version of what happens, the famous Lexicanum list of painstakingly archived references is, to be generous, inconsistent at best. But such are also historical sources, and being a student of history, I'm drawn to the conflicting sources and apparent mystery. As opposed to real history, though, we can be 99% sure that nothing is behind the references and tangential mentions. But we still can have fun. What is the most basic information that we now have, after a decade of Horus Heresy novels? What can we say with certainty about the Second and the Eleventh? 1- They were wiped out, if not completely, partially. 2- Apparently their Primarchs were the problem. 3- Whatever they did, it was so huge, so monumentally monstrous, criminal or glaring, that the Emperor ordered them killed or forgotten, and their records expunged utterly and completely. Horus rebelled and we still know about him. Lorgar fell to Chaos and his book is still studied as the basis of Imperial religion. Magnus used friggin sorcery and the Emperor sent the Wolved, but did the memory of the Thousand Sons did not perish. 4- Whatever happened, it happened between the beginning and the end of the Crusade. 5- The Wolves were involved in their demise. 6- Their Primarchs must not have been close to Horus or the Lion or any of the most popular brothers, because killing (maybe) Primarchs and destroying the memory of two full Legions IS A BIG DEAL. Which tells me they weren't necessarily killed, but we'll get there. The theories are many, but the fact that Primarchs who would soon fight amongst them to the death based sometimes on mere ego contests and misunderstandings were afraid of even referencing the Second and the Eleventh speaks volumes about the degree to which a) the writers know nothing about what happened to them, and if we want to be guillible, then b ) the lengths to which the Emperor went to make both these primarchs an example. I'm making this thread because I'd like to pick your brains on this matter, and many people accept now that the two Legions were not "destroyed", even if they were disbanded. ADB did say that the connection between the swelling of the Ultramarines' numbers and the disappearance of the 2nd an the 11th was a coincidence, but there it is now, for the historical record. My own theory on what happened to the Primarchs is that one of them was a strong psyker and the other one dabbled in genetic manipulation, and that they were very close. One of the two legions suffered from a serious genetic flaw which its primarch tried to solve by dabbling in Fabius Bile-like experiments, maybe with the help of his other lost brother. The experiments go bad, half the legion goes Wulfen (but worse, maybe even daemonic possession) and the 2nd and the 11th have to put down their own brothers. Guilliman and Dorn, who are described as being one of the few to know of what transpired, discover what's going on and ponder if they should tell the Emperor. First they confront the two lost Primarchs and, in the most Primarch of fashions, come to blows. Legion on Legion. Blue and Yellow go tell the Emperor and he and Malcador decide they need to set an example. An early example. Don't touch the Warp, don't pollute my genetic handiwork, don't raise weapon against brother with ill intent. It's not a strong theory, but it's a start. I'm very curious to see what you have come up with. It could be that the real story was nothing like we expect (if we ever get it, but I'm confident GW will visit at least one of the two, it's good marketing), or it could be that my theory is too blanc and they did much worse. To me, one of the best endings for Psychic Awakening would be the return of one of these Lost Legions. GW would blow my mind. And Guilliman's too. AND this would justify an Astartes vs Astartes conflict again. A man can dream.

Yes, I agree with Lunkhead here. Without a strong Reclusium, your chapter is on the very edge of becoming a Chaos warband. Actually, one of the ideas I was toying with was a newly-turned Chaos warband which still is made of the chunks of an almost-annihilated chapter, and so they would have a very un-Chaos look yet. The Genestealer cults gave me the idea. I envisioned a banner with the remains of their Chaplain or the defaced Chapter banner. These marines still don't know that they're veering ever closer to Chaos. I like the moral gray areas, there's a lot of contrast with the black-and-white view we've always had of Chaos as an absolute evil and the Emperor as the source of absolute good. With Chaos being an exageration (and later perversion) of the most common goals or strongest emotions in Mankind, this is very plausible (and logical; I expected more novels to treat this issue). Your chapter, though, is the other side of this; these Marines have not fallen... yet. ;) Just like Khorne is a satire of the honorable, noble warrior; Tzeentch is the perversion of the wise master, Nurgle is the caring doctor brought to the absurdist extreme of keeping a dying patient alive even if he's in extreme pain, and keeping his lovely bacteria alive as well, and Slaanesh is the perfectionist and the narcissist subverted... your chapter could be facing the temptations of the Runious Power without even knowing so. So yes, have a couple of cool chaplains with big armors and balls of steel.

This has been silent for a while now. Any developments?

I like it. I also have an Arthurian Chapter, but yours is more grounded.

The Sanguine Shields (Scutii Sanguini, in correct Latin, or Scuta Sanguis in faux GW Latin) sound like a cool chapter, but I also like the Iron Bloods name a lot.

I like the idea of them being a rag-tag band of outcast marines akin to the Fallen or the Damned, but not dead or supernatural. This might mean that they developed a myriad of iconography based on their original panoply, whatever it may be (reverse Legion Chapters, if you will).

From what I'd understood, the Grail was created to prevent the rift from opening, and the Grail Wardens were created to protect it. To complete this task, the chapters that took part in the Red Crusade each send one squad (or ten marines). I don't see why the other participants of the Grail Wardens would let the Crimson Knights forget ? I think the Red Crusade and the Rift are created after the third founding (so after 001.M32). I think it wouldn't be later than M33. I really don't think the Eldar would leave the planet to be defended by the Space Marines, I prefer your former idea of the planet already being abandoned. (Also, be careful of using the term "fallen" when talking about marines, it can be mistaken as "Fallen Dark Angels") see before quote If the Crimson Knights were part of the invocation that closed the rift with the Grail, then they are blood oathed to take part in the Grail Wardens ? Why would the discovery of their true ascent make it clear they were part of the Grail Wardens ? 1- The whole "different name" thing was to make it more or less believable that the other Grail Wardens didn't tip them on their origin, but that may be nonsense. 2- Abandoned it is. A maiden world "polluted" by people. 3 and 4- They are blood bound, yes. The idea was that they had forgotten, and that the quest for their origin would lead them to this revelation. This only works if their current homeworld is far from the Grail Abyss and have had little contact with the other Grail Wardens. 4- Because it would make them understand the circumstances of their near destruction during the closing of the Rift, therefore making it known to them that they are Grail Wardens. Right now, they don't know why they ended in Albion or what's their ancestry before M36 (although this millennium can be changed). Also, they lost some of their genealogies and the oldest dreadnoughts in the biochemical attack that destroyed most of their homeworld equipment in M39. This means that the arc about their origin ends whenever they join the Wardens in a Red Crusade to recover the Grail, which, if I got it right, had been stolen or lost in a corrupt world, and that's why the Grail Wardens have assembled again? Sorry if I got some things wrong, there was a lot of material here and there in the thread.

Sorry for the time this has taken! My take on the Crimson Knights is evolving, thanks to your observations and input. I hit a rock with the Chapter's origin, but this thread made it easier. It also got me thinking about what writers do when they hit a wall: they turn their problem into a solution. In my case, the Chapter's origin was giving me a headache. Now it's the Chapter's headache! +++ The Knights' homeworld of Albion is located in the Galactic Fringe, far from most civilised lands and almost outside the reach of the Astronomican. So, this means: 1- The Knights may not remember they were part of the Grail Wardens due to some cataclysm or disaster, maybe the same one that occured when the Wardens tried to close the Rift. Maybe they suffered greatly at the hands of the traitors, maybe they lost most of their genetic material and the Chapter was almost discontinued. This would fit nicely with the Grail fluff. When was the Rift created? Just to know how old do the Knights think their Chapter is. 2- The old Chapter's remains travel to Albion, a feudal world, where they are treated as messiahs by the local population. Here we can insert the Eldar menace, but that has nothing to do with the Grail. Still, it's interesting that the Eldar decide, after a while fighting the fallen Marines, that it's better to leave them in Albion and use them as a shield to whatever they're savegarding beneath the surface of the planet. 3- The Knights were called otherwise before, maybe Swords Observant? Working title. 4- The Knights are invited (or ask?) to become part of the Grail Wardens given their proximity to the Grail Abyss (Albion is a fringe world, it doesn't matter which frige as of now). 5- The discovery of their origin (the Imperial Fists) also makes it evident that they were a part of the Warden order. 6- What remains to be considered is what to do with the Grail itself, since it seems it's a real object. Maybe they have gotten a peak and seen it's not the real Grail they're after? +++ What do you think?

Yeah, sorry, I definitely want to keep my chapter morphing theme, and the fact that they resist the temptation... Oooops, and there I was going to spoil my own story ! Solution for the Crimson Knights ? I was just wondering about a simpler way of doing this, but without pushing out Cesar's Imperial Fists successors, and I think I've found it, as long as he's in agreement: we could simply say that everyone believed his chapter were Blood Angels successors, and that they had managed to find a cure (possibly because his members had drunk from the grail), but then, much later on, it was discovered that there had been a mix up, much like the Soul Drinkers were believed to be Imperial Fists successors, but then it was found that they weren't (and it just seems so obvious that they are blood angels successors...) After millenia of fighting side by side, the Crimson Knights don't want to betray the chapters they believed were brothers, so they pinkyswear they won't say anything, and continue the search... How does that sound ? Common Ancestor ? Could all our chapters have a common ancestor, who were charged with guarding the Grail (secret task) - the Grail Wardens. They are then destroyed, by Slaaneshi/Eldar, and so the Grail is stolen and most documentation about it lost to the mists of time. However, their genestocks on Mars were incredibly extensive (for some as yet unknown reason ?). One survivor escapes, but he is mortally wounded and his memories are scattered (he could have been tortured, and his mind is now broken for instance). Because of the very high number of geneseed, and its apparent purity, the High Lords of Terra decree that three/four chapters will be created from this geneseed. Years after their founding, each (or simply one) of these chapters is visited by the mad space marine, who tells them of this "Grail" and how it was their ancestor's duty to guard over it. Since the ancestor chapter is no more, they are honour bound to search for it and restore it. The successors are inclined to ignore him, but through jiggery pokery, they find that he is exempt from the red thirst or the black rage, even though he is obviously a Scion of Sanginius. Because of this, the successors get together, and decide to create an order that will be the spiritual successor to the Grail Wardens. Over time, some chapters leave, create new successors, or turn rogue, etc. Also, some of the chapters have this special quest used to manipulate them. This doesn't necessarily answer all of Arkangilos's questions, but it could answer some. As he says, there is not necessarily much reason for the different chapters to work too much together on this, so I'd see it more as a select few from each chapter that pledge themselves and go on quests on their own (but sharing all their findings with their colleagues). As soon as they find what they think is a good clue, but there are pesky enemies on the way, they can call to the closest chapter of the Alliance to help them. These few decide to go on the quest because they believe they can cure all of the sons of Sanguinius, for the sheer nobility of it all, for personal glory... Whichever is pertinent to them. I think this format would allow us to link all our chapters together coherently, but give us enough leeway to be free to do what we want in each chapter. What do you guys think ? I like this. For three reasons: 1- It makes my Chapter's origin more mysterious, and it becomes an integral part of the Chapter: the quest for their origin. The genetic genealogists have a crisis of faith but after a while they get on again with their work, reworking genetic parenthood and trying to link the Chapter's first original heroes to Dorn instead of Sanguinius. This can also be a good link with the Lady of the Lake, who is probably the only one who remembers the reality of the Chaper's origin. 2- It can explain some of their divergences from the Codex. 3- It makes it easier to link the Chapters together in their search for the Grail. *** If none of these solutions work out, I have another Chapter, a Blood Angel successor I made when the BA recieved new cool minis: the Blood Dragons (*working title*, really), wich are based on Dracula lore. Their first Master was Bela Dracul, and were proud of having mastered their Red Thirst to the point of having developed a Battle Meditation technique where all the rage entrapped during the days and weeks of meditation and containment was left off in a spectacular communal battlecry. They were savages on the battlefield, but decent monks outside of it, until they finally exploded in a storm of Black Rage that drove half the Chapter mad during the War of the Commodork's Hat. While in battle, half the Chatper's marines began tearing the Orks apart viciously, and then they turned on everything else. So maybe these Blood Dragons can work as a substitute?

It's best, then, if we leave the nature of the Grail unexplained, "Codex: Necrons" style. The Lady of the Lake in Albion points my Knights into the direction she wants them to look at, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an Eldar artifact. If could be an even older device, Necron or older in nature. Kind of like the Pharos in Calth, which if I remember correctly, was older than the Eldar and, supposedly, attracted the Tyrannids towards Macragge. Old prophecies and chapter myths talk about the Grail and its abilities, and signs of its existence have been found in several worlds (which also would explain why are there several worlds with similar Arthurian-themed cultures). These different Chapters have stumbled upon them at various points of their history (foundation or otherwise) and taken to heart their meaning, interpreted in various ways, etc. I think my own is the only Chapter that's not a scion of Sanguinius, which makes the coherence of the idea a bit flimsy, but maybe we can bring this into the story too. Since my Chapter is not familiar with the whole idea of Sanguinius' Blood and the Chalices of the Blood Angels, it's understandable that they have developed their own ideas and interpretations on the meaning of the Grail, much more metaphorical, also skewed by the occasional oracles from the Lady of the Lake, who has her own agenda. I can imagine the Chapters first meeting and the discussions about whose myth is the correct one.