DogWelder

Lord of Ultramar was so dissapointing. You took the one Primarch who wanted to be more than just a weapon, who was an accomplished statesman, who was more loyal to the Emperor's ideas than the Emperor himself and what did you do? Explore any of these complex and interesting ideas? No you had him fight mindless Orks. Ugh. The Nemesis Chapter was the only good part about that book.

I like that the Fulgrim one states that Guilliman is not popular with the ladies lol: ‘It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar. I am well aware that I am being a trifle ungenerous, lord commander. But a woman can only hear the words ‘practical’ and ‘theoretical" so many times before she loses all patience At least your felinoids, rambunctious as they are can discuss something other than military theory or governance.’

Its a mixture of both really. It really depends on the personality of the Ultramarine who has been chosen as Praefactor or overseer. The Praefactor has ultimate authority over the planet and his commands are law. However, for this reason, only aged Ultramarine veterans or Ultramarines who can no longer fight with 100% efficiency are chosen for this role. Then this candidate has to be approved by the Chapter Master and the Ultramarian Senate on Macragge. So while it is theoretically possible for an Ultramarine to run a planet like a tyrant, an extremely strict vetting process ensures that the right kind of people are selected.

True but Ultramarine recruits are recruited from the noble families of Ultramar so they're pretty much bred from day 1 for the role since literally all of the noble families are falling over themselves to offer up their sons to the Ultramarines since its a mark of great prestige. Cato Sicarius for example was Grand Duke of Talassar and trained for the role since he was born and retained the title even when he joined the Ultramarines Chapter. It actually leads to an interesting class divide (Cato looking down on Uriel since he's from a lesser noble farming guild on Calth).

Yes, what's interesting is that they've actually become a self-sufficient sub-species of humanity after the Heresy. One with a tremendous amount of influence over the Imperium and a willingness to use it when they feel threatened or feel that the Imperium is not being run as it should be. Take the example of the Imperial Fists and their successors seizing power on Terra during the War of the Beast. Or the Ultramarines invading Terra with 50 other successor chapters after the Beheading and completely reorganizing the Imperial Government because they did not approve of the post-war administration. I feel Guilliman and the Ultramarines have another use for developing their skills as governors besides the immediate benefit of their citizens: to prevent their own obsolescence. They realize that if they are viewed as weapons, they will simply be thrown away once the war is over. But if they become statesman and leaders, integral to the proper governance of their realm and if the common citizenry becomes dependent on them, they will ensure that their Legion can survive indefinitely. A long-term survival plan if you will. This is further seen in Dark Imperium. When Guilliman strong-armed all those defiant planets into becoming Greater Ultramar, the common citizenry put their full support on the side of the Ultramarines, with only the nobles and political class dissenting. They made themselves loved by the masses (taking the advice of Machiavelli) and therefore secured their future since, once they have the backing of those trillions of Imperial citizens, no one can pose any kind of political risk to them at all.

The idea of Space Marines as rulers alongside their role as warriors has always been an interesting component to the 40k storyline. There have been two instances where this concept has been explored. The first was with Horus and the Traitor Legions using it as a tool to persuade the Astartes to join their cause. The Emperor was handing over control of the Imperium which the Space Marines had won to mortal men and women who were to actually rule it. This actually caused a significant number of Astartes to turn since they did not want to hand over their hard won gains to bureaucrats who did not deserve it in their opinion. 'Administrators and bookkeepers dictating the paths of warrior-kings?’ He cleared his throat and spat. ‘That shall not stand. The Legiones Astartes are masters of their own destiny. Horus will carry us to victory!’ -Hakeem Khan, traitor White Scar during the Heresy, from Garrro: 'Sword of Truth' So this is clearly a negative portrayal. However, the second example is Ultramar which has been showered by praise in nearly all of the 40k literary works. Efficient, practical, productive and with a high standard of living, it shows the benefits of Space Marine rule over humans. In fact it is so good that the trillions of people in Ultramar stay willingly loyal to their Ultramarine masters not out of fear of retribution but out of a genuine desire to live a better life and comfortable in the knowledge that if they work hard, they will be rewarded by the upward social mobility of the meritocratic system installed by Guilliman. It's not a utopia by any stretch though since it doesn't just hand you a luxurious life. But it gives you the chance at a better life if you are willing to put in the effort to work for one. Still I feel the flaws of this kind of system should be better expanded in the 40k literature. It shouldn't just be 'everything is amazing in Ultramar! There is nothing wrong at all!". The trillions of people in Ultramar live under the principle that regular humanity is just too stupid to govern itself and must be constantly overseen by a Space Marine administrator/ruler. Every single planet in Ultramar has an Ultramarine Praefactor who is the ultimate authority on the planet. Not to mention a secret police (the Vigil Operatii) created by Guilliman to hunt down any dissenters/rebels that would disturb the 'efficiency' or 'productivity' of a planet. In fact under the newly established 500 Worlds system, Guilliman is giving even more power to the Ultramarine governors and Tetrarchs, outright dismissing several hundred planetary governors and installing his own sons in those positions. As well as turning over the most productive of these planets for permanent military occupation by Ultramarine successors. Now this is still obviously a hundred times better than the rest of the Imperium and I also fully agree with the actions Guilliman and the Ultramarines are taking to ensure the safety of their realm but I realize that they are ruthless and underhanded. I think this adds a realistic edge to this system. It provides a great counterpoint to someone going 'Well why doesn't the whole Imperium become Ultramar?' Do you guys think this concept should be explored in greater detail in future books? If so, do you think they should show us some of the more negative aspects of Space Marine rule?

I'd say he's definitely getting more apathetic towards the Emperor. Several times in Dark Imperium he refers to the Emperor as a cold, unfeeling being and realizes that there's no point in having any sort of love towards someone who's never going to return those feelings. Still extremely loyal for the reasons I listed above but now he sees the Emperor as less of a father and more of a powerful deity he doesn't have any personal attachment to.

I wouldn't say he hates the Emperor. I believe its always been more of a 'loyalty to ideas' for Guilliman rather than 'loyalty to an induvidual'. Guilliman is loyal to the idea of human civilization and progress, not the Emperor himself. The reason he follows the Emperor closely is because (most of the time) he thinks those two things align. However, it means the Emperor doesn't get the same unconditional obedience he gets from Russ, Dorn etc. Which is also why I think was part of the reason the Emperor passed over Guilliman for Warmaster: what would happen the moment Guilliman decided those two things no longer aligned? That the Emperor was acting in such a way that was detrimental to humanity? We see some of that in his willingness to work with the Eldar as he disagrees with his father on the utility of xenos to further humanity's aims.

I think Guilliman gets a bad rap for being a 'boring' or 'vanilla' Primarch However, I believe there are many fascinating and subtle aspects to him that makes him special in a unique way among the Primarchs. One is that his true loyalty has always been to humanity (more accurately human civilization) rather than the Emperor himself. I believe this is what truly separates him Primarchs like Dorn and the Lion who are quite similar in other aspects. He's loyal to his ideals of an productive, enlightened and prosperous human civilization that dominates the galaxy through strength but is guided by reason and logic above all else. We can see this in his creation of the 500 Worlds and how much care he put into them (even stating that it could be the new hope for humanity should the Imperium fall during the Heresy). While he does follow the Emperor because his father's ideals align with his, this is not the unconditional loyalty that other loyalist Primarchs have. If Guilliman feels there is a logical course of action he can take that will benefit humanity as a whole, he will not care about the Emperor's approval on it. This is evidenced by his willingness to work extensively with the Eldar and not engage in the same extreme anti-xenos attitude his father had. (This is actually spelled out more in the Hand of Darkness/Eye of Night audiodramas). Another facet of his personality that sets him apart is his insatiable desire for progress and expansion. He definitely believes that man can master all things given enough time, effort and resources. That you don't have to accept things as they are and must always try to improve/change things for the better. We see that in his radical restructuring of the Imperium both after the Heresy and after his return. Any other Primarch would be satisfied to leave the Imperium as it is and focus on the military aspect of things. But Guilliman took power over the civilian authorities as well, planning to slowly but drastically changing every aspect of Imperial society so that it fits more in line with his vision. Ultimately Guilliman can never leave things as they are. He wants continuous development/progress at all times. In Dark Imperium he straight up orders the Mechanicus to stop salvaging wrecks of old ships in the void. When they protest, he basically tells them "I don't care. Build new ships." Finally I believe he always wanted to be more than just a weapon or tool for the Emperor (hence why he was so bitter about the Emperor referring to him as such). He trained his sons to be rulers/administrators after the Heresy was over and was preparing his Legion for a peacetime standing (he was going to decommission the Destroyer companies in his Legion before Calth). While he did believe the Emperor did create the Primarchs for war, he always wanted to be something more: a true leader to humanity, not just a wartime one, just as he believed Space Marines were not just tools for war but could continue to be an inspiration and source of leadership for humans even in peace. So what do you guys think makes Guilliman special?

What were the inconsistencies in UE? The only thing I remember being mildly controversial was Kurze taking on Guilliman and the LIon and managing to escape. Which is not too bad. I mean Guilliman took on Lorgar and Angron and managed to escape in the end.

I'd cut Abnett some slack since this was one of his very early novels. The later ones have a much better balance between the protagonists and antagonists. Know No Fear had the Word Bearers demolish the Ultramarines for the first half of the book until the tide turned in the second half but only just barely.

Is the Eternal Crusader a full-fledged Gloriana btw? Cause it seems rather small for a Gloriana-Class. It is 10km while Glorianas are usually 20+ km in length.

Which one is that? There's House Konor which is listed in the 8th Edition Codex but is there another one too? 0.0

Oh also note that Konor and Anuaris are both hinted be Dark Age of Technology outposts from the pre-Imperium human civilization (in fact its postulated that Ultramar itself was one big DAOT outpost on the Eastern Fringe). This gives you the opportunity to add some cool and unconventional modifications to your models. More traditional 'sci-fi' add ons alongside the whole 'grimdark' aesthetic if you will. Though if you want to keep it purely 40k I understand :)

Yes that's what I initially thought too. However, the Furious Abyss was destroyed when the small strike team that boarded it destroyed its plasma drives. The team consisted of about a dozen or so Marines from the Space Wolves, World Eaters and Ultramarines. By contrast the wreck in the graveyard had its warp drives detonated by a massive boarding party and there were corpses of hundreds of Ultramarines and Word Bearers frozen in combat on every deck of the wreck.